Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, best solutions are to either dthrow/bthrow after, or do some hard readin'

It's always like 0-20 get a grab before Lucario reaches the 25-ish% range (when the aura multiplier starts taking effect), then it goes to like 0-30% (28% is more precise, but it's close enough considering how easily you could stuff a few pummels here and there), not counting the dthrow/bthrow afterwards. Apparently, from what RJ tested, it goes as far as 38% alone, but I can't seem to do that. It's definitely not a huge deal, but hey, it's free damage for low percent, and dthrow/bthrow are good resets, since bthrow can get them offstage and dthrow allows you some mild followup potential + AS charge time.

Yeah, you gotta buffer it, another Lucario in my area didn't believe me until I showed him

Now if only uthrow CG -> utilt combo -> tipper fsmash worked like it did for Melee Marth, that'd scare spacies senseless (although uthrow -> utilt is a combo at low percent for Lucario)

 

[Yikarur]

He can from like 0-20ish if it's buffer'd and stutter stepped foward. D.Disciple and Trela discovered how to do it. I tried shining out to no avail.

you shouldn't get grabbed when both are at 0% anyway

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You can do 0-38% with the CG on each of them. But it's just something to note, it's like how Wolf can air release Lucario into a sweet spotted Side-B.

you shouldn't get grabbed when both are at 0% anyway

It doesn't have to start with them both at 0%.

But after 25% yeah Wolf can get out most likely.

 

[-Mars-]

Yet Marth players get their stupid 0% fthrow>fsmash combos off all of the time.

 

[Raziek]

Works, incidentally, on pretty much everyone BUT Lucario.

We have to read DI correctly to get it on him.

Everyone else is either stutter-stepped, or guaranteed no matter what. (I think. There might be one other exception.)

 

[phi1ny3]

^Yeah, gotta love that

 

[NickRiddle]

Can either panel of the ZSS v IC matchup kind of break down the rationale with it in ZSS's favor? I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just curious as to why.

I've only played two ZSS's in tournament and they were super close matches. But I had no idea what I was doing sooooooo any insight is helpful either way.

We have 3 moves safe on shield.
Our side-b out-ranges blizzard.
Desynched blizzard/ice blocks will get hit by side-b, and I'll trade one ice block for 15% any day of the week.
It's very easy to put Nana in positions to die... easier than most of the cast.
We can also run away all day long.

 

[Conviction]

Hahaha we those letter puns intended? "and Fs you up....... you can't C me." lol made me laugh

Yeah I did lol

 

[Tesh]

Whats up with the MK list? What makes you guys think that Fox, Wolf, Marth or Wario are as effective as Snake against MK?

What evidence suggests that Pikachu does better against MK than Snake? Pikachu should be in the +1 list imo.

 

[Steam]

pretty much everyone thinks that the MK list is ****ed up.

Lucario, Kirby have the same ratio as DK and D3 against MK... lol

 

[etecoon]

MK list has issues, but I have no problems with those MU's being considered the same as snake

snake doesn't do that well against MK

except wario, wario can't do **** against MK

 

[Spelt]

it's sad when you consider -1 good lolol

 

[Raziek]

I can't speak for everyone, but the Marth panel intially had MK as -2, so I'm inclined to say that if multiple characters were surprised, the MKs are under-rating themselves intentionally. >_>

/conspiracy

 

[Steam]

I can't speak for everyone, but the Marth panel intially had MK as -2, so I'm inclined to say that if multiple characters were surprised, the MKs are under-rating themselves intentionally. >_>

/conspiracy

Lucs had to fight with them to get -2 instead of a -1

and D3s wanted a -3

 

[Tesh]

Why rate everything wrong though? MK isn't going to be banned, so you can put all matchup in -4 and it won't matter. Wasn't the BBR supposed to attempt to make this matchup chart accurate?

 

[Raziek]

Still, is it not in their best interests to make themselves look less bannable, regardless of the actual practicality of the ban?

 

[Tagxy]

Pretty sure this is at highest levels. If youre just comparing them with Snakes MK MU, the only ones that might seem off based on results are wolf and wario. Fox only seems off because he does even better than snake.

As for pika the biggest complaint in the MK-Snake MU is MK's ability to gimp or deal massive damage to snakes returning to the stage. Go from there.

 

[etecoon]

eh, people disagree, something subjective can't be "accurate"

I think D3 should be -3 vs MK but I think lucario is fine. he gets ***** on paper but he gets rewarded for doing badly, I don't really see how any of his MU's should be worse than -1 considering that. you can outplay a lucario for 5-6 minutes straight and still lose with like one or two things going against you at the very end, the fact that his tools are mostly pretty *** is kind of offset by that

 

[Tesh]

How well have top pikas done against top MKs compared to top Diddy Kongs, top Falcos and top Snakes?

Results don't lie.

 

[Steam]

lucario goes -1 against MK on stages that aren't gay.

the problem is he's totally ****ed on MKs CP.

though if you compare him to some of the other characters that have -1 he kinda belongs with them...

aura doesn't always help him... he's basically doomed if he dies first against a heavyweight. and you also have to keep in mind that he's nerfed when he's below 75%. so if you **** your opponent at the start of the match. your lead will be much less than it could be... you're really overrating lucario's aura in general. if lucario is able to beat you with one or two events that are boosted by aura... then you weren't outplaying him by much if at all, especially if you consider he was nerfed before... Lucario is definitely more than aura, especially since it often works against him... he has quite balanced tools :/

and Lucario actually does decently on paper against MK. Lucario can outspace MK on the ground, beats his air camping, Aurasphere goes through almost everything due to MK's hitboxes. His recovery is the biiig issue.

 

[Tagxy]

How well have top pikas done against top MKs compared to top Diddy Kongs, top Falcos and top Snakes?

Results don't lie.

Pretty much the same. Id say the only one who could make an argument for a better MU based on results is Fox.

 

[Seagull Joe]

The top Wolfs seem to prove the Mk matchup as -1 correct. What do you mean it's off based?

 

[Z'zgashi]

im still kinda irked at the thougt of people actually thinking mk goes even with anybody

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

way towards the beginning of this thread i could swear i remember one of the people who worked on this saying that if multiple character boards and people had problems with the same character board, that the said character board would be reviewed again and be forced to take the other sides' arguements into account.

in this case, the mk boards probably don't wanna admit that this is true

Spoiler

while this is supposed to be funny, does any1 else agree that this chart shows how he shuts down like over half the cast?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Whats up with the MK list? What makes you guys think that...Wario is as effective as Snake against MK?

Because Krystedez is crazy, and because everyone else doesn't play the matchup.

Wario just doesn't have the movement speed to even potentially punish Meta Knight's safer options without hard reads.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

People Krystedez is crazy, and because everyone else doesn't play Wario.

this is the best quote ever. dezy is crazy good tho. that is an undeniable fact

 

[Juushichi]

Crazy like a fox.

Also, that works if it was 2008 Maha. As much as I dislike MK, people do more than that. And shuttle loop is missing. If it was tornado, shuttle loop and dsmash. Maybe.

 

[Steam]

yeah shuttle loop is still the best move in the game IMO lol

 

[Seagull Joe]

yeah shuttle loop is still the best move in the game IMO lol

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Suspect]

Ivysaurs/Charizards down B is

 

[Exdeath]

If I had to guess why the MU number is off, it would be because someone thought that Snake vs. MK is only ~40:60 A.K.A. -1 (IMO it's -2). Marth is relatively better vs. MK than Snake is, so if Snake is -1 there wouldn't be much sense in making Marth a -2.

 

[Suspect]

Marth is relatively better vs. MK than Snake is

please explain lol

 

[Yikarur]

whao you must really suck against MK.
Why so much whining out of nowhere?
Marth:MK is -1 at least. Perhaps when the Metagame evolves it will be even someday.
since when is MK:Snake that bad? come on lol

 

[Steam]

no... you just have to consider what happens when the MK knows the matchup as well as the non-MK

and you don't apply the old ratios to new....

 

[John12346]

Discussing MK's matchups; when we find the characters who get ***** the least by him...

 

[Alphicans]

I agree with xdeath.

 

[z00ted]

The Real BBR Matchup Chart for Peach

-3:
-2:
-1:
-.5:
0:
1:
2:
3:

The Fake BBR Matchup Chart for Peach

-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

 

[Steam]

I approve ^^^

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Either way, +2 against Wario...Them's fightin' words.

 

[z00ted]

I can understand where you are coming from.

Some people think it's even +1 advantage for Wario. I believe Nicole does, and Vinnie a while back brought up some pretty validating points to me on aim on the matchup.

Peach's bair can outrange every one of Wario's attacks, she can combo him extremely well (hitstun from dair), she has a guaranteed kill move (up-smash out of grab release), she can force an approach with the lead (turnips), and she has strong counterpicks against him (ban FD, take to Pictochat - or any stage with nothing to get in the way of the grab-release).

Aggressive Peach wins, in my opinion. I've never lost to a Wario.