Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Poltergust]

Wolf's Light Step is not a character-specific technique. Everyone from Wolf to Marth to even Yoshi could do it. Wolf's just happens to be the easiest.

 

[phi1ny3]

there's also that thing where lucario cancels on the ledge and gets his jump back...

sadly all of it is basically impossible to do consistantly : (

I dunno, Trela seems to be able to do it on command.

And yes, in regards to the subsequent posts it's what all the cool kids are calling the "Light step" nowadays, I guess.

 

[Steam]

well doing it from the ledge is easy...

from any sort of distance is hella hard and not to mention hella risky because if you miss something by like a frame you can die

 

[Judo777]

Oops my bad Zeldas is definitely below wolfs. Probably put it right BELOW olimars. Zeldas recovery REQUIRES her to take a hit everytime. And I say Ganons is better than links simply due to range. Links recovery is so short its pathetic sometimes. Ganons is punishable on hit but he can at least DI the punish and make it back on stage sometimes. Mostly the reason i put ganons above links is because Ganons has 1 dangerous mixup through side B and then his is a decent amount longer than links (tho i admit links is safer, but its just too short). Marios would be on the list due to range alone but cape + how stupidly safe his up B is bumps him up.

@Seagull man, lucario recovery is better IMO simply due to how floaty he is, probably wolfs biggest flaw in his recovery (depsite airspeed) IMO is the fact that he falls like a brick.

And Sheik recovery is a decent bit better than wolfs. She has THE ONLY completely invincible tether and can land her vanish on the stage COMPLETELY laglessly. Not to mention she can teleport around 64 different directions, and has invincibility on a good chunk of the startup of vanish. Infact if sheik is within range to hit you with vanish while your on the ledge (provided you have been there after invincibility like to remove the tether) then she CANNOT be ledge hogged and WILL get the ledge everytime if she teleport right to it (its just how the timing on the move works you cant time ur get up invincibilty to stuff her as opposed to say peach). Lastly sheik has THE BEST double jump in the game (bar yoshi ofc because his is different) tied with falco.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I actually didnt know about the lagless part. /takes note

does it have to do with the height you end it or what?

Yes, do it too high and you get the normal end lag, do it too low and you ram into the ground.

the easiest way to do it is to be level with the stage ground and UpB side ways onto it, if you do you'll land without lag.

The reason it is hard is because your not always gonna be level with the stage so you gotta curve it to space the end properly.

I've seen some people do it while curved but doing it on will and all the time just happen too often due to the spacing issue.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Oops my bad Zeldas is definitely below wolfs. Probably put it right BELOW olimars. Zeldas recovery REQUIRES her to take a hit everytime. And I say Ganons is better than links simply due to range. Links recovery is so short its pathetic sometimes. Ganons is punishable on hit but he can at least DI the punish and make it back on stage sometimes. Mostly the reason i put ganons above links is because Ganons has 1 dangerous mixup through side B and then his is a decent amount longer than links (tho i admit links is safer, but its just too short). Marios would be on the list due to range alone but cape + how stupidly safe his up B is bumps him up.

@Seagull man, lucario recovery is better IMO simply due to how floaty he is, probably wolfs biggest flaw in his recovery (depsite airspeed) IMO is the fact that he falls like a brick.

And Sheik recovery is a decent bit better than wolfs. She has THE ONLY completely invincible tether and can land her vanish on the stage COMPLETELY laglessly. Not to mention she can teleport around 64 different directions, and has invincibility on a good chunk of the startup of vanish. Infact if sheik is within range to hit you with vanish while your on the ledge (provided you have been there after invincibility like to remove the tether) then she CANNOT be ledge hogged and WILL get the ledge everytime if she teleport right to it (its just how the timing on the move works you cant time ur get up invincibilty to stuff her as opposed to say peach). Lastly sheik has THE BEST double jump in the game (bar yoshi ofc because his is different) tied with falco.

There really is no Wolf's in In/Ky is there?

Wolf's up b has the same amount of directions. It can be angled and it's longer then Sheik's up b. We can go through the stage with side b. Our air speed alone makes Wolf capable of just double jumping back most of the time unless you cemetery DI.

He doesn't fall like a brick. What the **** lmao? He has a fast fall that isn't even much difference from his regular ability of just dropping and his aerial mobility is 4th best. Sheik falls faster then him. The only two characters I can think of that fall like bricks are Link and D3. Compare him more to Wario then a fast faller because that's what he's like...

If Sheik is below the stage even slightly then she HAS to up b and then she will be edge guarded to force recovery on stage. And then she gets punished because even lagless up b can be punished if you attack before Sheik completely lands. Wolf up b forced on stage will get us punished too, but our weight makes up for that because not even a fresh Mk Nair will kill till around 150-160's with good DI. Sheik's light...

Whenever I wanna abuse Sheik's I just dthrow them offstage with Wolf and then abuse her recovery options to no end.

 

[Kool Aid]

i've been using pit lately, he may return :D

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lastly sheik has THE BEST double jump in the game (bar yoshi ofc because his is different) tied with falco.

nope.

 

[-Mars-]

It's the second highest double jump i know that for sure.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Isn't Luigi's DJ up there?

 

[Shaya]

It's the second highest double jump i know that for sure.

It's the perfect height for MK to down air it

 

[Juushichi]

It's the perfect height for MK to down air it

****ing this. I hate MK (not really). But at Seagull, he's not quite INKY... but we have Luminoth and DarkLouis over in Ohio too.

Most of our area has played against Kain at some point too. Not sure of Judo has played any of those Wolfs in a while.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Obviously Peach has the highest DJ.

 

[da K.I.D.]

its funny, I used to get really confused by the nature of most posts in this thread, and where people would get such rediculous notions about things from.

Now I just look at whoever that person mains before I read their comments and everything makes so much more sence.

SFPs last post is a perfect example of this.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

its funny, I used to get really confused by the nature of most posts in this thread, and where people would get such rediculous notions about things from.

Now I just look at whoever that person mains before I read their comments and everything makes so much more sence.

SFPs last post is a perfect example of this.

Well actually that was the intention. I'm not sure who has a higher second jump than ZSS' boosted by up+b. Maybe Fox?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Like for example, if they main yoshi, they're either raging hard and throwing down numbers on their character, or going super troll/sarcasm mode.

 

[Alphicans]

Well actually that was the intention. I'm not sure who has a higher second jump than ZSS' boosted by up+b. Maybe Fox?

Yeah but then you're doing an upB.

 

[Juushichi]

its funny, I used to get really confused by the nature of most posts in this thread, and where people would get such rediculous notions about things from.

Now I just look at whoever that person mains before I read their comments and everything makes so much more sence.

SFPs last post is a perfect example of this.

I know, right?

It's almost like who you play colors your mindset or something. I almost believed that people didn't use their experiences as a particular character main to influence their metagame beliefs.

Meanwhile, were you aware that MK was the best character in this game?

Sarcasm aside, and slightly off-topic. What did people think about Will planking against RB on YI? Should all characters have a LGL?

 

[Espy Rose]

I didn't see a problem with what Will did. He played to win, and used a strategy that Rich Brown failed to work around. Simple as that.

 

[Juushichi]

I feel the exact same way about it, actually. Getting planked by a DK has to be particularly frustrating though.

I still am not entirely sure how I feel about a LGL for all tournaments. At Nationals/pseudo-Nat'ls/large regionals though, it is probably necessary.

 

[fkacyan]

its funny, I used to get really confused by the nature of most posts in this thread, and where people would get such rediculous notions about things from.

Now I just look at whoever that person mains before I read their comments and everything makes so much more sence.

SFPs last post is a perfect example of this.

Anybody else appreciate the irony here?

Anybody?

 

[Espy Rose]

I was told that Olimar's yellow Pikmin fsmash could deal with it well.
Didn't GIMR also explain Donkey Kong's vulnerability in the other thread as well?

I mean sure, it's frustrating, but I'm pretty sure Donkey Kong vs. Olimar is frustrating for the Donkey Kong on the level. Not that that justifies the legality of something like this. They're both just different parts of the match up. It just so happens that Donkey Kong gives Olimar a hard time while planking. However, it's definitely within reasonable means.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Guys, yoshi has the best DJ, hands down, and you know what they say, if you ain't first, your last.

 

[Spelt]

I agree with espy.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i've been using pit lately, he may return :D

man kool aid i can't even tell you how much i hope you aren't joking man. i need to watch watever recent pit vids you get if you really do start using him again because all the high level pits have disapeard. with you back on the scene ill have someone to learn from again

 

[fkacyan]

Guys, yoshi has the best DJ, hands down, and you know what they say, if you ain't first, your last.

MK has the best DJ because he can do it 5 times.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi's is still better cuz he can do it infinite times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBaZIvGGHnQ

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshis double jump sucks.

 

[~Firefly~]

Like for example, if they main yoshi, they're either raging hard and throwing down numbers on their character, or going super troll/sarcasm mode.

Or if they main Z'zgashi, they're trying to shift the subject to Yoshi when the current topic has nothing to do with the character.

=D

 

[Steam]

DK planking is fair, but a universal LGL would be much healthier for the community. No new players to the game are going to stick around when they see that getting a lead and planking the ledge is how everyone plays.

We don't want brawl to turn into what boxing is today >.>

 

[Jimmyfosho]

firefly goin in.

 

[Matador]

We don't want brawl to turn into what boxing is today >.>

Must....

....resist...

 

[Steam]

must....

....resist...

......

>_>

 

[Judo777]

nope.

Actually it is. Its the second heighest (tad shorter than falcos) but its also faster than falcos (by a tad) so i say they are tied.

@ Seagull thats my point exactly tho. They both can go 64 ways with their up B but when sheik does it she has a much better chance of avoiding a punish simply due to the fact that you have to hit her before she hits the ground. Wolf you get enough time to hit him even if he is forced to go onstage. And yes i have played with Luminoth a decent amount who wolf is pretty good. We also have a pretty good wolf here in Lex (hes new to competative smash but hes got a good amount of raw talent.) And just remember you have to be holding onto the ledge before i disappear or else i might just go to the ledge if you hop off early. So yes some character can punish sheik for going on stage but rarely will i ever get punished hard unless you read my far in advance. More often then not tho I PS MK's that try to nair me for vanishing on stage, similar to how I PS snake mines buried near the ledge.

And wolfs airfall speed is pretty quick, granted so is sheiks. But tbh the existance of sheiks tether are what make sheiks recovery. Sheik essentially gets a 50/50 that if you guess right she gets to turn into another 50/50. If you ever guess wrong sheik gets back and that assuming its a pretty long distance recovery.

But by far one of wolfs biggest issue is that (similar to falco) if you give him the ledge he STILL has issues getting back due to phatom lag. Infact my typical stategy for edgeguarding with snake is to rapid jabs over the ledge stuffing his side b at close range, and if he decides to go for the ledge take a step back and react to what he does due to landing penalty. It works out pretty well because ALL of wolfs ledge tricks with side b are INSANELY punishable if he has landing penalty as light stepping doesn't end the lag.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Actually it is. Its the second heighest (tad shorter than falcos) but its also faster than falcos (by a tad) so i say they are tied.

@ Seagull thats my point exactly tho. They both can go 64 ways with their up B but when sheik does it she has a much better chance of avoiding a punish simply due to the fact that you have to hit her before she hits the ground. Wolf you get enough time to hit him even if he is forced to go onstage. And yes i have played with Luminoth a decent amount who wolf is pretty good. We also have a pretty good wolf here in Lex (hes new to competative smash but hes got a good amount of raw talent.) And just remember you have to be holding onto the ledge before i disappear or else i might just go to the ledge if you hop off early. So yes some character can punish sheik for going on stage but rarely will i ever get punished hard unless you read my far in advance. More often then not tho I PS MK's that try to nair me for vanishing on stage, similar to how I PS snake mines buried near the ledge.

And wolfs airfall speed is pretty quick, granted so is sheiks. But tbh the existance of sheiks tether are what make sheiks recovery. Sheik essentially gets a 50/50 that if you guess right she gets to turn into another 50/50. If you ever guess wrong sheik gets back and that assuming its a pretty long distance recovery.

But by far one of wolfs biggest issue is that (similar to falco) if you give him the ledge he STILL has issues getting back due to phatom lag. Infact my typical stategy for edgeguarding with snake is to rapid jabs over the ledge stuffing his side b at close range, and if he decides to go for the ledge take a step back and react to what he does due to landing penalty. It works out pretty well because ALL of wolfs ledge tricks with side b are INSANELY punishable if he has landing penalty as light stepping doesn't end the lag.

Aiming for lightstepping is a very foolish thing, but if I did perhaps do that then you couldn't jab me because I can just jumpshine right after I hit that angle.

Sheik's recovery has poor range.

If a Wolf is recovering in a way that is dumb enough for his recovery to be punished that's his stupidity because Wolf almost always has a way around it.

Wolf has the best options getting back of all the space animals because the simple fact of scaring.

Landing penalty is negated if Wolf just grabs the edge without using up b or side b and that happens a lot because of his amazing aerial mobility. I don't think you have versed Wolf's that just B-reversal a laser and jump regularly back on or to the edge because Wolf can do that very easily....

As far as recovering once I have the edge goes, I just plank with lasers and then you WILL move either closer or farther away, that isn't a question. If you move closer then I can jump back on stage and land with a Bair or Nair or something to cancel landing penalty. If you choose to go farther from me then I have even more options.
Wolf laser planking is very good and all Wolf's should implement it into their game. I sure do it a lot. Sheik doesn't have the option to "LOL" needle plank because her needles would be angled down.

I know of Snake's holding A to beat scarring because I myself do that to other Wolf players very often if they're recovering poorly. I can beat most habits out of other Wolf players.

 

[Judo777]

Aiming for lightstepping is a very foolish thing, but if I did perhaps do that then you couldn't jab me because I can just jumpshine right after I hit that angle.

Sheik's recovery has poor range.

If a Wolf is recovering in a way that is dumb enough for his recovery to be punished that's his stupidity because Wolf almost always has a way around it.

Wolf has the best options getting back of all the space animals because the simple fact of scaring.

Landing penalty is negated if Wolf just grabs the edge without using up b or side b and that happens a lot because of his amazing aerial mobility. I don't think you have versed Wolf's that just B-reversal a laser and jump regularly back on or to the edge because Wolf can do that very easily....

As far as recovering once I have the edge goes, I just plank with lasers and then you WILL move either closer or farther away, that isn't a question. If you move closer then I can jump back on stage and land with a Bair or Nair or something to cancel landing penalty. If you choose to go farther from me then I have even more options.
Wolf laser planking is very good and all Wolf's should implement it into their game. I sure do it a lot. Sheik doesn't have the option to "LOL" needle plank because her needles would be angled down.

I know of Snake's holding A to beat scarring because I myself do that to other Wolf players very often if they're recovering poorly. I can beat most habits out of other Wolf players.

Actually yes every wolf i play b reverses lasers to land that basic stuff. It can also be chased. Im used to it because Airborne does that with yoshi all day and yoshis b reverse is actually better. And NO you can't jump shine after light step because the jab actually hits you BEFORE you get to the ledge. Wolf's lightstep is IMO his best side b trick by a decent amount, but its limited to the fact that he has to be OVER the ledge to do it in the first -lace which is very easy to guard. I'm not saying wolf can't recover wolf is a pretty good character (at least from my perspective playing sheik) but recovery is definitely a huge issue. Sheiks recovery (btw your short range point is the best point so far) is not a substantial part of why sheik is bad its more due to her losing the trading game with everyone.

Wolfs laser planking isn't a very good answer either. Wolfs laser is stupidly easy to PS i can quite effortlessly stand in the same spot and block them all day. Not to mention if i have a projectile (if i were sheik i would have needles) i would gladly trade a laser for full charge needles (which btw wolfs laser is VERY reactable to so i don't much have to worry about them getting reflected).

Sheik has trouble getting off the ledge and while full hop needles off the ledge is ACTUALLY not a half bad idea every now and then She is allowed to make full use of her options due simply to not having landing penalty. I'm telling you having to deal with that is pretty big for everyone. Its gives you one more guessing game stacked on top of the guessing game already required to get to the stage. And i wouldn't actually consider getting off the ledge a part of recovery IMO. I was simply pointing out that often times wolf recovering optimally forces him to NOW have trouble getting off the ledge.

Also wolf has to be crazy careful of doing any get up option off the ledge. If anyone susceptable to landing penalty rolls or getup attack or regular standups onto the stage then they are not at high risk for ******** combos. Sheik gets jab to charged Dsmash on wolf for rolling onto stage. Luigi gets a free jab to Upb on all spacies (that roll onto stage) that roll onto the ledge (and it continues until they pay their penealty). Snake probably gets jab to utilt guanateed at that point so its now MUCH riskier to do any ordinary get up option off the ledge as wolf (or any penalty char)

 

[Yikarur]

Wolf has the best >100% Ledge Options of the game.
He has scaring, shine, laser.
He has a lot of options to come back to the stage when hanging on the ledge.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Actually yes every wolf i play b reverses lasers to land that basic stuff. It can also be chased. Im used to it because Airborne does that with yoshi all day and yoshis b reverse is actually better. And NO you can't jump shine after light step because the jab actually hits you BEFORE you get to the ledge. Wolf's lightstep is IMO his best side b trick by a decent amount, but its limited to the fact that he has to be OVER the ledge to do it in the first -lace which is very easy to guard. I'm not saying wolf can't recover wolf is a pretty good character (at least from my perspective playing sheik) but recovery is definitely a huge issue. Sheiks recovery (btw your short range point is the best point so far) is not a substantial part of why sheik is bad its more due to her losing the trading game with everyone.

Wolfs laser planking isn't a very good answer either. Wolfs laser is stupidly easy to PS i can quite effortlessly stand in the same spot and block them all day. Not to mention if i have a projectile (if i were sheik i would have needles) i would gladly trade a laser for full charge needles (which btw wolfs laser is VERY reactable to so i don't much have to worry about them getting reflected).

Sheik has trouble getting off the ledge and while full hop needles off the ledge is ACTUALLY not a half bad idea every now and then She is allowed to make full use of her options due simply to not having landing penalty. I'm telling you having to deal with that is pretty big for everyone. Its gives you one more guessing game stacked on top of the guessing game already required to get to the stage. And i wouldn't actually consider getting off the ledge a part of recovery IMO. I was simply pointing out that often times wolf recovering optimally forces him to NOW have trouble getting off the ledge.

Also wolf has to be crazy careful of doing any get up option off the ledge. If anyone susceptable to landing penalty rolls or getup attack or regular standups onto the stage then they are not at high risk for ******** combos. Sheik gets jab to charged Dsmash on wolf for rolling onto stage. Luigi gets a free jab to Upb on all spacies (that roll onto stage) that roll onto the ledge (and it continues until they pay their penealty). Snake probably gets jab to utilt guanateed at that point so its now MUCH riskier to do any ordinary get up option off the ledge as wolf (or any penalty char)

If I see you're going to use your needles then instead of laser planking, I'd just drop and jumpshine then immediately re-grab the edge.

I usually jump recovery to avoid having to deal with landing penalty and then option select my aerial on landing. True fact: Wolf's Dair is actually enormous and lagless so I sometimes use that instead of Nair or Bair. Sheik isn't exactly the most amazing killer in the game so even if I jump recover at 130 then I still won't even die from a Sheik Bair or Uair for that matter. Rolling over 100% from the ledge is really dumb and anyone should be punished if they choose that option because it's the slowest and easiest to react to. This isn't Wolf dependent though because every character has this problem. How often do Mk's ever even Roll over 100% back on stage? Almost never because they'd get ***** for it. That's a universal thing, not a character specific matter. Landing penalty factors too, but you cannot always expect Wolf to have landing penalty if he is recovering how he should.

I never have problems getting back from the edge.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nah though Wolf's recovery is actually pretty good. I don't know where all this comes from, his recovery is at least as good as Falco's and probably better. Yeah the trajectory is kinda predictable but it's pretty safe regardless.

 

[_Kain_]

Let's get this clear. Sheiks recovery is bad way worse then Wolf. Your acting like you get something guaranteed against Wolf when you don't. He has enough mobility to be able to dbl jump back to the stage. Landing penalty should not be an issue for a Wolf who is aware of it cause doing an aerial when you land basically makes it go away. If you want to stay on the ledge you'll just eat a laser on our way back. IF your to close on the ledge we can just scar back on.

Now on the otherhand. Sheik's recovery is just bad cause she's either gonna tether or up b. So you predict one that's all. There is no secret to vanish like your saying. IF your forced to vanish grab the ledge. IF she's to far she will fall and die. and if she's close she will up b to high or on stage so from the ledge you just drop and do w/e will work. Wolf's recovery is WAAAAAAY better than Sheik