Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[san.]

All I need to see are Wolf players winning tourneys and putting in work while the sheik players scrounge to make top 8 at locals and put in work at theorycraft to know what's going on.

 

[Judo777]

All I need to see are Wolf players winning tourneys and putting in work while the sheik players scrounge to make top 8 at locals and put in work at theorycraft to know what's going on.

Oh wow so many insults here. Alrighty well I'm done here. Its obviously clear, that some people are incapable of having a debate without condecending to another players skill level ESPECIALLY when the other player really have no idea exactly what skill level the other player is on. Peace.

 

[san.]

Yep. Sorry if that was interpreted as an insult, cause I didn't really name anyone or want to insult anyone. I stated things as fact that may or may not have been true. It would have been more productive to actually quote Kain's post, since he's the one debating with you.

Don't want to derail the topic, though. I think Wolf's aerial speed and general aerial keep-away aerials makes it difficult to outright gimp Wolf.

 

[Judo777]

Yep. Sorry if that was interpreted as an insult, cause I didn't really name anyone or want to insult anyone. Nor do I want to derail the topic. Wolf's aerial speed and general aerial keep-away aerials makes it difficult to outright gimp Wolf.

My bad then internet johns. And that's a valid point. And I'm also not saying Wolf's recovery is bad, but I don't think my list is too far off. You guys are however also heavily underrating sheiks recovery. Its not just a "is she gonna grab the ledge or up B" I can watch what you do, it just so happens sheiks method for a canceled vanish is the same trajectory for a tether. If i see them go for the ledge i can vanish, and pick whether they are now getting up to punish or if they are staying and go to the stage. However if you aren't already commiting to the ledge most characters can't bebat the speed of the tether. Its not just a guessing game i get to watch and see what you do.

 

[phi1ny3]

I agree, I think Wolf's recovery is actually pretty good, maybe not if you're MK/Marth/Sheik where you're like edgeguard/gimp extraordinaire lol, but it's actually pretty hard to punish even when you know what he's going to do lol, which is helpful because he doesn't get a lot of mixups with his recovery lol.

 

[Steam]

why on earth is judo a backroom member?

>_>

 

[phi1ny3]

Because he's a sheik main that produces results...

He's a good player I hear, I just think most sheik mains have a slightly skewed view of chars they lock to death lol.

 

[deepseadiva]

Because it was him, or saviorslegacy.

 

[Spelt]

lololol i repeat, not top 8 at a national = nobody has ever heard of you.

 

[-Mars-]

All I need to see are Wolf players winning tourneys and putting in work while the sheik players scrounge to make top 8 at locals and put in work at theorycraft to know what's going on.

This has what to do with the recovery topic?

 

[Judo777]

why on earth is judo a backroom member?

>_>

Probably because I have pretty good results and have a pretty vast knowledge of the game. Not to mention I typically have a pretty good attitude on the forums. In fact i very rarely if almost ever condescend to other players...........

 

[Poltergust]

You were pretty condescending when we were discussing the Yoshi vs. Sheik match-up.

 

[Judo777]

You were pretty condescending when we were discussing the Yoshi vs. Sheik match-up.

What? lol I was not.

 

[Poltergust]

You got pretty angry during the discussion, though.

To be honest, I really can't see Sheik having a +1 over Yoshi anymore. Still, that's for another time.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik-Yoshi is like slightly in Yoshi's favor.........

o snap yoshi mains derailing another thread with Yoshi talk :D

 

[Deleted member]

What advantages would Sheik have on Yoshi, Judo?

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi Stampede incoming :0

 

[Poltergust]

Sheik-Yoshi is like slightly in Yoshi's favor.........

o snap yoshi mains derailing another thread with Yoshi talk :D

Nah, I believe it to be even. And I don't understand how I'm derailing this thread. We're discussing a match-up on the match-up chart. >_>

EDIT: @Auspher: Judo's main point in the discussion was that Sheik can rather easily gimp Yoshi. I disagreed to that, because Yoshi's recovery can really only be reliably gimped by MK and Sheik simply does not have the aerial mobility to do much harm to him. Instead, I agreed to a -1 due to her Needles and her ability to punish Yoshi's landings, but now I'm not so sure...

 

[san.]

This has what to do with the recovery topic?

Solidifies the wolf players' arguments concerning their recovery. If it was as much of a problem, I can't see why they won't just say it. And doing well = guaranteed experience at high level matches.

The rest is just a little teasing/trolling. I don't even know how Sheiks place.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi v Sheik is even imo. Sheik should never, I repeat, NEVER gimp yoshi. Sheik can punish landings, yes, but yoshi can play it safer than most with great air speed, five up b's, super armor on double jump, wavebouncing, AND a move that auto grabs the ledge (down b) which also can ledge cancel on slopes to refresh all jumps with little to no lag. Try again Judo.

 

[Judo777]

I did not say that was the main point however. I said she can gimp yoshi fairly regularly (about once per game of 3 stocks). And no the main reason is that sheik beats yoshi upclose can VERY easily deal with eggs, she can rack damage fairly fast and juggle yoshi well, can get around pivot grabs without much hassle. There are 2 good yoshis in my region. I would be willing to claim that I might know the MU better than everyone other than say maybe 10 people in the nation (due to the fact that i play it pretty much every single day).

And you guys say sheik shouldn't be gimping yoshi, but I have been told sheik shouldn't gimp alot of people that i have gimped. I remember a certain pit main telling me the same thing..... lol name search Krystedez !!!!!

I actually think yoshi is quite a bit easier to gimp than pit (pit shouldn't be happeneing very often) but as i said sheik can maybe pull off a gimp on pit every other game.

@ZZagashi I don't think its fair for you to try and pull rank on me for this one. How many good sheiks do you play regularly? Cause if that number is less than 2 i don't think its fair for you to pull rank on me so fast.

 

[Albert.]

Aren't there much more important things to be discussing?

 

[Flayl]

So I just saw Will VS Rich Brown 3 and if people take up a general LGL just because of that game it's because they're giant scrubs.

 

[_Kain_]

It still seemed along the lines of stalling

 

[King Funk]

So I just saw Will VS Rich Brown 3 and if people take up a general LGL just because of that game it's because they're giant scrubs.

Lmao...

inb4bpccomesin&flames

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So I just saw Will VS Rich Brown 3 and if people take up a general LGL just because of that game it's because they're giant scrubs.

Xyro:

4. RichBrown vs Will: 185 LGs later

I am a firm believer in "punish the offenders and ONLY the offenders." MK(maybe pit) is the reason why we have a scrooging rule....not ****ing charizard(yet hes under the same rule). The act of plainking(different than stalling) is banned because of MK.....not ****ing link(yet hes under the same rule). LGLs were created because of MK(maybe gw and maybe pit)......not ****ing ganon(yet hes under the same rule). It is 100% unfair to force character than CANT plaink/stall to have a LGL. Being on the ledge is extremely safe for lots of characters and since a LGL of 40 is put on them they now have to worry about going over the limit and pray a timeout doesnt happen(because they would lose due to the rule). Thats dumb and not needed.

People(illmatic especially because he might possibly be the most moronic player i have ever met) also need to learn to CP stages that prevent ledge stalling and character that BEAT ledge stalling. People need to also learn that when you go to a tournament, you pretty much "sign" an agreement to play by the rules of the event. Wether you think they are fair or not doest matter an ounce because you WENT to the event.


Anyways, I talked to WILL about what he did and i asked him flat out "is there any way Olimar can stop DK from stalling on Yoshis island" and the answer i got was basically a "no" because olimar would literally put him self is MAJOR OBSCENE MAJOR risk of dying if he went off stage to try and stop DK. So this goes back to what i just said: CP stage/character. So no johns Rich Brown.


But then it hit me.......


RichBrowns money, hard work and skill with olimar were negated because of a stupid *** tactic and a lack of rules to stop it. He went from EARNING a 2 or 3 stock the previous match to losing the set to a ****ing DK who grabbed the lege 185 times. The only way he could have beat it was to go MK. I agree that people need to have back-up plans for the stupid **** this game dishes out but at the same time there needs to be some sort of limit. It is totally unfair to say "just go mk/snake/diddy..... it will solve your problem." Do really want this game to boil down to 3-4 characters THIS fast? Im flip-flopping(or flip-hopping lol) alot now so i think what im trying to say is I used to be "lgl-mk-only" but now im totally open to LGL for more than just MK. Wether is 50 for all or 50 for all but 40 for mk or just add lgls to only the chars that require them....w/e i think something needs to be done and im totally open for doing that. I will be talking to the bbr-rc about it.

I have no opinion yet, still trying to figure it out.

 

[Browny]

Honest question

How many people here would have cared if Will dished out that treatment to a random, no name Zelda player.

Would it have caused this much commotion?

But NOOOOO, the reason people are pissed off about it, is because they think that r1ch DESERVED to win. Who cares how much the flight was or who it was who got beaten, THATS NOT RELEVANT. People keep on letting that get in the way of what actually happened in the match: A character lost to a bad matchup on a powerful counterpick.

SERIOUSLY. If an IC player 3 stocked a ganon because all they did was spam blizzard - grab for 3 0-deaths, NO ONE WOULD CARE. Its actually more of an unwinnable situation than what that olimar was faced with.

And to this goddam awful logic, I dont even know/care who said it

He went from EARNING a 2 or 3 stock the previous match [...] It is totally unfair to say "just go mk/snake/diddy..... it will solve your problem.

OK so we have established that Olimar potentially destroys DK normally, a 3 stock on the best DK in the country? Will had the option to counterpick a character, but he didnt. he counterpicked a stage. For match 3, r1ch had the option to use a different character but he chose not to. Will got the stage. THATS THE EXACT ADVANTAGE YOU DESERVE FOR WINNING MATCH ONE. If you were worried about planking on match one, you should have used a character who doesnt get planked?

holy hell people, this entire problem stemmed from the olimar refusing to change characters. I dont know how many times I have to explain it, but if you willingly choose a character with a bad matchup vs another and then lose to another character, NO MATEER HOW 'GAY' IT IS, then its your own damn fault.

Tell me, how often do you see Ganondorf mains complaining that its unfair that people use characters with heavy advantages on them (some 100:0) or CP stages like rainbow cruise. Ugh.

To re-iterate what I said before, I really think the whole problem here is that people believe the outcome of that match should have been predetermined. Whether it was against ally or XxXzeldafan69xXx its completely irrelevant... Dont let who lost to this tactic get in the way of any arguments here.

 

[Ussi]

When it works on good players is when it matters though

 

[Browny]

And WHY did it work on a good player?

Because the'good' player refused to counterpick!

Whos fault is that? (Again my ganon vs IC example. if a top ganon get counterpicked by IC's to FD and gets 3 stocked, would anyone care? Was his $300 flight ticket suddenly not an issue because he used a non-viable character and refused to counterpick, just like olimar?)

Theres only one thing to it; a character lost a bad matchup. The end.

 

[_Kain_]

And WHY did it work on a good player?

Because the'good' player refused to counterpick!

Whos fault is that?

You actually have to know how to play with said character to counterpick so what are you talking about. It's so funny when people think counterpciking will automatically solve problems. WHy don't you take a look at this Mr. Counterpicking would have solved the problem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbnTVF_CgEA

 

[Browny]

Hey, who said anything about counterpicking changing the result of the match?

The point is whether it is bannable. The question is; is it beatable?
Answer; yes.

Counterpicking would have given him the OPTION to beat it, so by no means is the tactic unbeatable, he just chose not to give himself that option. But of course, thats not fair is it. Its totally mean to tell someone they should give themselves a chance to win the match instead of going into a potential 0:100.

 

[_Kain_]

Hey, who said anything about counterpicking changing the result of the match?

The point is whether it is bannable. The question is; is it beatable?
Answer; yes.

Counterpicking would have given him the OPTION to beat it, so by no means is the tactic unbeatable, he just chose not to give himself that option. But of course, thats not fair is it. Its totally mean to tell someone they should give themselves a chance to win the match instead of going into a potential 0:100.

No one is saying it's not fair lmao. It was just gay and more along the lines of stalling and if you look at the match there wasn't even a need to counterpick he had opportunities to get himself back into the match and he just didn't capitalize on it. The match was overrated, still gay, but overrated. If I'm sure avoiding any type of contact and just staying on the ledge while doing nothing is stalling, which is banned and you get DQed for it

 

[Browny]

yeah, my 'fair' comment was aimed at who my first post quoted since that idea of fair is just ridiculous ugh.

 

[Flayl]

Rich Brown didn't need to change character to beat this...

 

[Steam]

there should really be a universal LGL just for the sake of the community... this game will probably die if it boils down to ledge planking whenever someone has the lead...

if you can allow this then the "unapproachable position" on the fin of corneria shouldn't be an issue and corneria should be legal since it doesn't stop every character and you could just CP and get around it.

>.>

 

[Flayl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA

 

[Orion*]

Wolf has the best >100% Ledge Options of the game.
He has scaring, shine, laser.
He has a lot of options to come back to the stage when hanging on the ledge.

Metaknight? O_o........

Oh wow so many insults here. Alrighty well I'm done here. Its obviously clear, that some people are incapable of having a debate without condecending to another players skill level ESPECIALLY when the other player really have no idea exactly what skill level the other player is on. Peace.

Skill =/= Results

This has what to do with the recovery topic?

Sheik mains gotta chill with the salt

You got pretty angry during the discussion, though.

To be honest, I really can't see Sheik having a +1 over Yoshi anymore. Still, that's for another time.

Real talk I get angry even looking at this post LOL

you just make people rage

 

[-Mars-]

Orion everyone who knows me irl knows I get salty about everything.

I was sooo salty that one nite you were ****** me on cross-continental wifi that I cried myself to sleep.

 

[King Funk]

Don't lose the lead. That's about it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA

Yeah this is what I don't understand about Melee. It seems that for some characters the ledge is just as powerful if not more powerful, and yet none of them really abuse it. Then they go on to talk about how bad Brawl is etc.