Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Delta-cod]

ICs don't beat Yoshi.

 

[OverLade]

They lose to mk -1, then diddy/marth/zss might be -1 or 0. They go even with or beat everyone else.

I can see ZSS and Diddy having even matchups with them, but Marths attacks are comparatively easy to powershield compared to most characters. Also, him being one of ICs easiest CGs is the reason we actually see ICs players beating marth players more often than other characters.

Ice Climbers with reads can power shield slide forward grab and are able to grab people out of a lot of things (including crossing over which you'd probably need to do eventually). Retreating against them can be punished and they don't have that bad of an edge guarding game.

They also have amazing juggle game. Their aerials outrange like 80% of characters aerials in general. If you can on platforms, they will eat your shield and poke you quickly.

you can't assume a level of play that doesn't exist though... if the current top IC level isn't "perfect" then they have to be rated on that level because the tier list reflects current top level play

It exists in Japan. Even if they don't have CPs over there, ICs still have an advantage over almost every character on neutrals.

Japan only plays on ICs the most neutral stages?

Fixed.

^This is why you are insane, RH^

Melee has been out for 10 years and ICs still can't beat everyone like this, what makes Brawl any different in this respect?

LOL at me being insane because I'm not stupid enough to compare the mechanics of Brawl and Melee like they're the same. In Melee, you can hit someones shield with an aerial, fastfall it, and L cancel so that you have frame advantage. This means you can approach ICs and pressure them without the risk of getting grabbed. In Brawl Metaknight is the only character that can safely pressure ICs without a projectile. For example, if Marth does a falling aerial and ICs Powershield it, he gets grabbed, if Marth does a riding aerial, ICs can still punish him out of shield with Uair or Fair.

There's a shortage of good ICs players for good reason, but if MK wasn't legal, we'd EASILY see just how ridiculously good the character is. Top ICs players have no reason to lose to any character besides MK really because he's the only character that can avoid getting grabbed regardless of mixups.

 

[Vinnie]

ICs don't beat Yoshi.

I think they beat Yoshi everywhere but FD. Yoshi gets hit once on FD and just holds away and can't be hit again in succession. With platforms, he can actually be juggled/combo'd and can't approach with egg lay over and over without going unpunished.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I would think they would beat ics on brinstar / RC

 

[Juushichi]

Vinnie, how good of a character do you think GnW actually is? I guess you could say a tier placement, but idk. Or you could give the difference between with a hypothetical MK ban and without.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Aerodrome, you also forget the fact that ICs are an actual CHARACTER, not a grab machine. Yes, you will most likely die if you get grabbed, but they also have amazing priority and damage output on their other attacks. You must be playing vs bad Ice Climber players, and judging by the fact that I've never heard your name before, you most likely have never played or beaten any good IC player.

Just call him stupid Vinnie. It's easier.

 

[Vinnie]

Vinnie, how good of a character do you think GnW actually is? I guess you could say a tier placement, but idk. Or you could give the difference between with a hypothetical MK ban and without.

Same as and . They're all tied, below above

 

[Delta-cod]

I think they beat Yoshi everywhere but FD. Yoshi gets hit once on FD and just holds away and can't be hit again in succession. With platforms, he can actually be juggled/combo'd and can't approach with egg lay over and over without going unpunished.

Lylat is the exact same way. It's a large stage, but provides platforms for landing mixups. It's not terribly hard to avoid ICs on platforms as Yoshi because he's just so fast in the air. Brinstar provides sharking and plenty of aerial options, and RC provides plenty of space to run away on. Delfino is large with a non solid bottom, as is half of Halberd, which both provide plenty of options for Yoshi. SV has the moving platform to use, PS1 has two platforms across the stage to use, which Yoshi has no problem reaching at all, as well as all the transformations.

All Yoshi needs to do is stay away from the ICs. He never has to approach. I play the match up extremely defensively and really just Egg Lay to cover my landings so I can't get grabbed. If I hit one of the climbers with Egg Lay, it provides the chance to kill Nana, and once she's gone, Popo really doesn't stand much of a chance.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Same as and . They're all tied, below above

I agree with this, though DDD is a toss up for me.

 

[Tesh]

Lol Red, good point. I forgot a character's best stages are neutral. Regardless of what you think that word means, judging how well a character does in a ruleset with only their best stages =/= how things would look in the US. With MK gone, there is no reason that any respectable TO would start banning 6+ stages. Thats not even factoring in how LGLs might be reformed with MK gone. I'm not sure how good ICs would be against a Pit or ROB allowed to grab the ledge 100 times. ICs will probably look even worse if they aren't able to have a pocket MK for the other half of the stagelist.

But, sure if we ban MK, the US will turn into Japan.

 

[Cassio]

Pretty much agree with everything Tesh said. IC's have been the theoretical "second best" character for like, two and a half years. Theyll probably be the theoretical second best" until brawl dies. Maybe someday theyll even be second on the tier list (first if MK is banned). ICs can continue to win theoretical awards, while other characters continue to win tournaments.

Theyre probably the second best secondary though.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Theyre probably the second best secondary though.

I think Brawl is moving towards a world where most good players will use multiple characters though (many already do). I wonder if talking about each character in a solo vacuum is even worth it. I haven't been keeping track, but it is my understanding that a lot of tournament wins have gone to players using multiple characters, with the exception of like certain Diddy and MK mains. Can anyone else do it alone edit: consistently? (vvvvv)

 

[Steam]

all the good lucarios are solocarios

and they win money sometimes

 

[phi1ny3]

They place pretty well in their locals, Junebug gets 1st and Trela 2nd usually (and Trela's in a pretty hard region to boot )

And they don't do bad on a regional/national level either.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's cool.

I guess what I'm saying is, for better or for worse, there are characters that are really good at filling specific niches to the point where not having that character in your repertoire is actually bad for you. For instance, plenty of good players have pocket Ice Climbers now. It's pretty beneficial to know how to play them well. In terms of ranking a character's worth I think it's worth considering, especially when so few characters solo nationals and regionals anymore. I'm not saying it's impossible, just that secondaries are becoming increasingly common and good secondaries are becoming very valuable. If said secondary isn't a good solo main, that might not mean the character is unimportant or marginal, it just means they aren't a good solo main.

Last year I wouldn't have said this, and I understand if the bulk of players don't agree with what I'm saying, I just think it's worth throwing out for discussion.

 

[phi1ny3]

I think it's definitely a good observation, more players have been becoming prominent w/ multiple characters, and in my opinion it's one of the ways people try to cope w/o using MK straight-away (we've been seeing Anti, Ally, Vinnie, Atomsk, and others rise that use several characters very well), and try to adjust their gameplay with those characters based on the opponent's playstyle, character, etc. It works to an extent, especially since a lot of top players are only really good playstylewise because they are "Anti-MK", while not doing as well in other MUs (Nicole and X come to mind imo, although I'm not sure if Nicole has improved in that area, last I heard her Peach was mainly only super good at the MK MU and okay at the others)

The only problem is that nowadays, you can either try to learn each of those characters, or you could just opt for MK, which is generally easier

 

[So Fatal]

DDD snake is pretty even I think depending on the stage etc. Being 2-5 with atomsk, 4-1 with Ling, 1-0 with co18 and I can't remember low level DDD's ive played. It switches back n forth

 

[phi1ny3]

it's ridiculously even when you think about it.

-CG = dthrow -> ftilt/dair damage-wise, although the buffered pivot grab CG might change that
-D3 wins hard getting snake offstage, Snake wins when it's neutral/D3 is trying to approach, and he's decent at edgeguarding him as well esp. when he's on the edge trying to get back onstage.
-Both live forever, both have great opportunities for landing both their kill moves.
-Both have a weird RPS CQC game, snake retreating grenade grab > D3's grab iirc, but d3's ftilt will blow him up giving him bad position.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Actually, I don't see how DDD can put Snake in a position from where he can effectively kill him other than a CG offstage. Snake can also juggle DDD oddly well.

 

[Browny]

But, sure if we ban MK, the US will turn into Japan.

Zss and marth mains will rejoice (except other countries, BL Shaya)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Aerodrome, you also forget the fact that ICs are an actual CHARACTER, not a grab machine. Yes, you will most likely die if you get grabbed, but they also have amazing priority and damage output on their other attacks.

Except ICs don't have amazing priority. Except on Blizzard. And they only have good damage output if they're together.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Have you seen their Up air? That **** is stupid.

 

[Vinnie]

Except ICs don't have amazing priority. Except on Blizzard. And they only have good damage output if they're together.

Lol ok I'm done, you clearly know more about ICs than I do.

You win, ICs have no priority and are unviable because you can do 'retreating aerials'... and you will never run out of space right?

hurr durr

 

[KuroganeHammer]

But... they don't. ;______;

I'm not saying they're not high tier, I just don't think they're second best.

 

[Vinnie]

But... they don't. ;______;

They don't what? Have a lot of priority on all of their moves? Afaik, uair beats every dair in the game except maybe link's/dedede's... and it deals around 20%. AND it combos into itself. >_> Blizzard also has a lot of priority, as well as utilt.

The fact that there are two of them makes their damage output that much more impressive. Their sync'd fsmash does around like 24%. Dsmash sweetspot (where it hits twice, I use it to punish a lot of characters when they're very close to me but I can't grab them or think they might sidestep) does like over 40%. Basically, they can grab you at any % and kill you... there are TWO of them... and there are many moves that COMBO into grab. Lots of people say "don't get grabbed and you'll beat ICs, they're overrated". For some characters though, that means don't get jab2'd... naired... iceblocked... etc. They all can combo and frame-trap into grabs with proper desyncs.

Human error = the reason ICs don't win many tournaments. IMO, ICs are the #2 character when human error is removed from the equation - if you get grabbed by ICs, their intent is to kill you out of it... and if done right, you can't escape out of it. That concept to me is just broke. Other people might have different opinions than me but I hate when they make rash claims without any background info.

Sorry for typing 800 essays about this. I never got the chance to gather and organize my thoughts on the subject, so yeah.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't think they have amazing priority on their moves because things like Zelda's ftilt (using my characters comparison soz) beat them out when trying to trade. Zelda's ftilt isn't... exactly a paragon of high priority. lol (Zelda's ftilt doesn't beat Blizzard though obviously)

Their up airs has very good priority though, yeah. But I mean, Sonic's up air can beat Link's dair. :\

Human error is probably what's holding IC's back, BUT

It's human error that gets people grabbed in the first place.

I imagine IC's bring out the worst in people when it comes to campyness, because people know that one grab = stock.

I mean, I guess that's just my opinion, yeah. They probably could be #2, but atm I just don't see it soz.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonics up air actually is one of the higher priority up airs in the game.

the range is probably exactly the same as the ICs, except it doesnt do as much damage, or combo into it self or last as long.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Really? Hm. Ah well. I dunno, I don't like Sonic. ^_________^

 

[da K.I.D.]

than dont bring him up in conversation to prove your point if you dont know what youre talking about.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

IC's Uair has mad range: Ike's Dair struggles to beat it. It ends up being fairly even on who wins that clash IIRC. They also have good "priority" on their other moves.

They aren't helpless without their CGs, though obviously not as good.

You're underrating the ICs, though I don't seem them ever reaching second either, because of said human error issue. Some MUs just rely too much on how well they handle the CGs.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

than dont bring him up in conversation to prove your point if you dont know what youre talking about.

No need for biting sarcasm, sunshine.

I'm not underrating ICs, I just think they're fine where they are on the tier list already.

The difference between 2nd and 5th is uh, I suppose it's trivial, but I just don't see them as better than Snake and Diddy.

Also aerial moves don't clash and why are you putting quotation marks around the word priority?

Only Blizzard and up air have exceptional priority. utilt, f-smash and dtilt have good/decentish priority, but other characters can comfortably beat them out.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Only Blizzard and up air have exceptional priority. utilt, f-smash and dtilt have good/decentish priority, but other characters can comfortably beat them out.

I hate this logic and it is pissing me off to no end that i continue to encounter it at every turn

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It pisses me off when people try to pretend that priority doesn't matter.

 

[Tesh]

Aero, you have to multiply it by 2 (because its 2 characters in one) and then solve for X.

ICs have good priority.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hmm, maybe I'm being a bit narrowminded here.

I'm still not sold on the high priority thing just because there are two of them though.

Hrrrmm.

 

[da K.I.D.]

It pisses me off when people try to pretend that priority doesn't matter.

Only Blizzard and up air have exceptional priority. utilt, f-smash and dtilt have good/decentish priority, but other characters can comfortably beat them out.

The worst part is that you probably dont see the problem here

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No I don't? May I ask that you elaborate?

 

[phi1ny3]

raw range-wise, Lucario's dair loses to IC uair, but the fact that it's stallable which makes for good spacing adjustment, and has that big hitbox out so quickly makes it pretty evenish v. it (plus the reward for using it is often worthwhile).

ICs have pretty gewd priority imo, at least vertically they do. Move-speed isn't so good, which might account for how stuff might get beaten out more often, but having two ICs there more than compensates for that.

 

[Steam]

priority = range in this game especially in the air.

otherwise it's just the 8% rule but that doesn't apply that often and even then the ICs throw TWO hitboxes out with each move so AFAIK clanking with them doesn't help you.

 

[Fuujin]

I don't think they have amazing priority on their moves because things like Zelda's ftilt (using my characters comparison soz) beat them out when trying to trade. Zelda's ftilt isn't... exactly a paragon of high priority. lol (Zelda's ftilt doesn't beat Blizzard though obviously)

Zelda's f tilt has transcendent priority.