Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Shaya]

Find something better to do with your time Steam, seriously ;\

Also 'depends which marth mains you ask' was separate to stating my experiences. I can't even grab release to dair consistently (read: at all) and have terrible reaction speed for MK's forward roll. Somehow the best Marth players have good tournament records against Meta Knight players at all skill levels. Somehow.

If I were to take my record against Meta Knight in this country and during my short time in the states (which was positive for me [although very old so it shouldn't count]), Europe metagamez and Mike something seems off.
Honestly though, find me a Marth player who is able to consistently pull off several technical nuisances in the match up (I can only list three players who actually use him in tournament as well [yes I'm aware Dekar/Anti/Tyrant/etc can]) who still loses to meta knights more often than not.

 

[phi1ny3]

"Two players of equal skill, one MK and one Marth, the MK has a very noticeable advantage."
depends which marth mains you ask . And I've been around the block on this match up countless of times.
And as a tournament player I've been dealing with meta knights since forever.

Grab release to down air in itself is something that Marth has that is better than any other character in the game bar ICs. Oh and Marth's design probably nets him the most grabs out of any character on MK bar Olimar too due to the way MK has to space to avoid dancing blade and rising aerials.

You shouldn't question what I say Grim!!!

Speaking of which, why has nobody learned to tech the dair? Wouldn't that yield a reversal of sorts for the MK, who would now have the better position? Or does Marth still get a frame advantage on MK when he techs and can still follow up on him?

 

[Shaya]

on stage, MK's tech options gives Marth a frame advantage (maybe a standing tech doesn't but everytime I see an MK standing tech an onstage gr dair against mike they get fsmashed, lol). But he can't really follow up tech rolls away in the complete opposite direction marth is going in.

Stage teching (for off stage, which is the main thing I was referring to) it is not only insanely hard to do consistently (at least for most players at the moment) depending on the distance to the ledge the human ability to SDI and tech it gets even less likely.

 

[-LzR-]

But you cannot SDI a tipper so it would be impossible to SDI Marths spike?

 

[Shaya]

Only Marth's tipper fsmash and feet hitbox of his upsmash have 'cinematic' hit lag.
All of his other tippers can be sdi'd.

Actually, some forms of shield breaker may have cinematic hit lag too. I forget.

 

[-LzR-]

The more you know...
So much time wasted not trying to SDI when I might have made it.

 

[Steam]

Find something better to do with your time Steam, seriously ;\

Also 'depends which marth mains you ask' was separate to stating my experiences. I can't even grab release to dair consistently (read: at all) and have terrible reaction speed for MK's forward roll. Somehow the best Marth players have good tournament records against Meta Knight players at all skill levels. Somehow.

If I were to take my record against Meta Knight in this country and during my short time in the states (which was positive for me [although very old so it shouldn't count]), Europe metagamez and Mike something seems off.
Honestly though, find me a Marth player who is able to consistently pull off several technical nuisances in the match up (I can only list three players who actually use him in tournament as well [yes I'm aware Dekar/Anti/Tyrant/etc can]) who still loses to meta knights more often than not.

I just point the same thing out every time I see a marth main meatriding their main lol.

so if these top marths are beating MK more often than not... who are they always losing to?

 

[Atomsk_92]

I'm 5-2 with Fatal...and 3-1 with Razer..Why is it whenever I lose to them the topic of DDD not beating Snake comes up lol...

 

[Shaya]

Marth mains lose to everyone in tournament because he doesn't **** anyone bar low tiers. You attempted to make a simple answer to a question a loaded one because of your bias (and you still are).

I said Marth -may- have the second best MK match up. -may-. People who talk about the match up bring up a lot of things and a lot of Marth mains feel it only tips in his favour due to 1. the inconsistency of us dair out of the GR 2. MK's higher success rate of gimping us over us spiking him/tippering him. And the same Marth's who share that opinion are some of the same who are like "we lose to rob, wolf, ice climbers, donkey kong, olimar, zero suit samus, sonic, etc etc etc"

 

[Steam]

then the fact marth doesn't **** anyone should lower him on the tier list because other characters get the job done against those characters and it shows by their superior placings. I'm actually not biased against marth at all, I just strongly believe results should be the main factor in determining the top places in the tier list. and I hate when people justify a character's placing by just stating the word matchups because matchups are all theorycraft. Results are the reality and show just how successful a character is at top level :/

and okay marth -may- have the second best MK matchup. too bad it must be offset by something that makes him place poorly.

 

[Cassio]

a lot of Marth mains feel it only tips in his favour due to 1. the inconsistency of us dair out of the GR 2. MK's higher success rate of gimping us over us spiking him/tippering him. And the same Marth's who share that opinion are some of the same who are like "we lose to rob, wolf, ice climbers, donkey kong, olimar, zero suit samus, sonic, etc etc etc"

Serious question. You think it would be even otherwise?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I said Marth -may- have the second best MK match up. -may-.

-May- doesn't make your comment any more excuable. Marth does not have the 2nd best match-up against MK. There is no -may- about it.

 

[Shaya]

Grim, there is obviously a -may- about it. Otherwise I wouldn't argue it.
Snake sucks
Falco sucks
Fox probably sucks
lolpikachu
ice climbersuck
olimar rocks, so who knows

@Cassio
If every time Marth grab released a meta knight he down air spiked them it would probably not look like a good match up for MK at all. The main point of it is the "it kills him from a grab at 30ish%" (before the 14% from dair) which Marth has a pretty snazzy combo from 0% to get that required death percent on MK. On stage its probably not very good and Mike is the only one who bothers (everyone else goes for the 'easier' fair, dash attack, dancing blade stuff).

tl;dr fthrow fthrow nair -> utilt/fsmash @ 0 = MK will die from a grab release spike near a ledge lest he has gdlke SDI - in theory.
ff fair to dancing blade is 25-30% and works up to the required death percent for MK too.
No one else has it that easy. That's where the "may" comes from.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim, there is obviously a -may- about it. Otherwise I wouldn't argue it.
Snake sucks
Falco sucks
Fox probably sucks
lolpikachu
ice climbersuck
olimar rocks, so who knows

Snake, Falco, Fox and Olimar have all shown in tournament countless times that they out-perform Marth against MK. This is because they are much better at limiting Meta Knight's options and preventing MK from being as safe as he usually is. While Marth can pack a punch when he DOES hit, he is worse at forcing a hit than the above characters. That is why he isn't 2nd best against MK.

If every time Marth grab released a meta knight he down air spiked them it would probably not look like a good match up for MK at all.

Why does this not happen? Either the Marth mains are REALLY slacking (doubt it) or it's just not humanly possible to perform consistently.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Gimme some vids of Marth dairing MK from grab release plox.

I wanna learn it.

 

[King Funk]

Gimme some vids of Marth dairing MK from grab release plox.

I wanna learn it.

Any Leon vs MK match.

 

[Shaya]

Snake, Falco, Fox and Olimar have all shown in tournament countless times that they out-perform Marth against MK. This is because they are much better at limiting Meta Knight's options and preventing MK from being as safe as he usually is. While Marth can pack a punch when he DOES hit, he is worse at forcing a hit than the above characters. That is why he isn't 2nd best against MK.

really?
citation required*

Because literally, there is no way for you to soundly prove what you just stated with any data currently available.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

OR

You could be helpful. ;_______;

Fine I'll look myself.

Maybe.

Eh cbf

 

[Grim Tuesday]

really?
citation required*

There is no "citation" for metagame and frame data lol, just look at the character's options, watch them perform at a high level, etc...

Just sayin', this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyvpsniLbA

Doesn't happen with Fox/Falco/Olimar/Snake.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Zz7m21Dj4

I am disappoint.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is Marth's MU spread IMO:

-1
±0
+1
+2
+3

At the moment I think this spread represents the results in high level play with Marth the best. It covers the fact that Marth isn't specifically held back by one particular character but also that he doesn't make much of the cast non-viable. Most of the characters at 0 have notable wins over 1 or more high level Marths - often with more than just one player as well. Given the amount of match-up results in high level play I'd trust them way more than anybody's theorycrafting or individual players' experiences.


I also disagree with the mario chart ...

-4
-3
-2:
-1:
±0:
+1:

Falcon, Ganon, Bowser and Zelda are the only characters I can say with certainty that are worse than Mario. Possibly Samus too; ... Link ... is better than Mario imo.

 

[Shaya]

Ice Climbers will forever remain the everyonehasadifferentopinion

Mr.R thinks its our advantage, for example. Kadaj who has positive records with every IC main he's played (I believe) thinks its our advantage too.
Most ICs thinks its their advantage.
Mother of god.

And Grim, I don't respect your opinion enough to comment on character options, especially with marth and meta knight.
After seeing that video (originally) I was like "well, that's realllllllllllllllllllllllly gay" and probably floundered any chance of it being even-ish - but most Marths i've talked to don't think it's that bad and just requires smarter recovering - because of the mixed opinions of it I discarded it under the 'may be second best match up against mk' argument because it -may- not be a problem.

 

[Steam]

really?
citation required*

Because literally, there is no way for you to soundly prove what you just stated with any data currently available.

sounds like every matchup discussion...

@gheb- There is no way Mario and Marth are the same difficulty for Lucario lol. Mario is much much easier.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Kadaj who has positive records with every IC main he's played (I believe) thinks its our advantage too.

When my older brother played regularly (used to be an IC main, it was somewhere between six months and a year ago), he beat Kadaj pretty soundly. He's either 2-0 or 3-0 with him. *shrugs*

 

[Cassio]

really?
citation required*

Because literally, there is no way for you to soundly prove what you just stated with any data currently available.

I dont think hes saying marth has nothing against MK, but you discarded a lot of good characters that have proven to do well vs MK; while atm marth probably has the least amount of success between all the ones mentioned.

I think his point was there has to be some reason for this, or something that can be explained to us non-marth mains on how marth is able to limit MK better than those you mentioned.

 

[Shaya]

some reason for this?

Guess there are no reasons at all. Duh.
*lightly presses the palm of his hand onto his face*

 

[_Kadaj_]

He's actually not Luis haha

And the last time I played in him tourney I knocked him out at Siege iirc

 

[Shaya]

Hi Kadaj <3
Tell these kids about scooping not being gay.

 

[_Kadaj_]

DI makes everything less gay

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Oh, my mistake. Doesn't he still have a winning record over you, though? Granted, it was a while back, but...

 

[_Kadaj_]

I believe he's beaten me twice? Once in LF's ( the tourney calvin won) and I think one other GA tourney, might have been the one I wasn't feeling well. I can't remember since I've been to GA so much xD

I think we might have the same record, I could've sworn I've played him a 4th time o_0

At the very least I guess I've won the most recent of times

 

[Cassio]

some reason for this?

Guess there are no reasons at all. Duh.
*lightly presses the palm of his hand onto his face*

...maybe took what I said a tad bit too literally. Obviously such reasonings exists, I didnt feel it needed to be explicitly given. You think otherwise?

 

[Nike.]

Oh gawd, Steam is hating on marth again?

 

[C.J.]

He never stopped.

 

[infiniteV115]

Am I the only one that thinks Marth is +1 against Falco?
Perhaps I've watched Mike too much XD

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I also disagree with the mario chart ...

-4
-3
-2:
-1:
±0:
+1:

Jigglypuff should probably have a +1 against Mario. She just has a better moveset overall and can air camp him pretty well. Not to mention the gimps lol.

I dont think hes saying marth has nothing against MK, but you discarded a lot of good characters that have proven to do well vs MK; while atm marth probably has the least amount of success between all the ones mentioned.

I think his point was there has to be some reason for this, or something that can be explained to us non-marth mains on how marth is able to limit MK better than those you mentioned.

^This^

 

[Steam]

Oh gawd, Steam is hating on marth again?

I hate on characters that don't place up to their tier position.

 

[OverLade]

I think Marth is +2 against Falco.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

wow red halberd. i like totally forgot you existed till just now. never hear about you anymore

 

[OverLade]

LOL Gee Thanks, I'm still 2nd in FL/going to tourneys SO IM OBVIOUSLY NOT TROLLING/GETTING MEATRIDIN ENOUGH...