Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Steam]

I knew about RCO lag before GIMR made a video about it because lucario gets it when he lands on stage with upB... and it's a huge ammount of RCO...

 

[-Jumpman-]

However, that was when it wasn't discovered yet. Now that it's discovered, I've found cool ways to adapt to it.

Also, our edge guarding game is better than yours, while it's pretty good, we have more options to our edge guarding game than you guys.

Marth edge guards DDD better than vice-versa. Watch more Leon vids.

 

[Kewkky]

I knew about RCO lag before GIMR made a video about it because lucario gets it when he lands on stage with upB... and it's a huge ammount of RCO...

Same as every Kirby that's ever used Kirby. Using sideB or downB anywhere then landing means we can't jump right after we touch the ground, which means we might get grabbed/hit instead of us being able to immediately grab/space a tilt/bair... Which is one of the reasons I'm sure those attacks aren't used as much as they could be used.

 

[Orion*]

I can't believe though I'm one of the few ppl that have adapted to this gaming mechanic.

Don't kid yourself.

 

[-LzR-]

Quit making such a huge deal out of a small game mechanic. Why don't we go learn some shieldbreaking tricks with Marth while we are at it.

 

[Doc King]

Quit making such a huge deal out of a small game mechanic. Why don't we go learn some shieldbreaking tricks with Marth while we are at it.

U mad cause D3 finally gets metagame improvement? RCO Lag is a pretty cool game mechanic as it gives players the ability to combo more (Most noticeable being D3).

Man, so many ppl here who trash D3. Why u haters hating on the king?

 

[NickRiddle]

U mad cause D3 finally gets metagame improvement? RCO Lag is a pretty cool game mechanic as it gives players the ability to combo more (Most noticeable being D3).

Man, so many ppl here who trash D3. Why u haters hating on the king?

Because he is bad.

 

[Doc King]

Because he is bad.

No he's not bad. He's got a great combo system, Beasty air game, good cps, good survivability, good range, and good power.

The down side is being a big target, slow speed, and being able to get juggled, comboed, and chain thrown a lot.

 

[NickRiddle]

No he's not bad. He's got a great combo system, Beasty air game, good cps, good survivability, good range, and good power.

The down side is being a big target, slow speed, and being able to get juggled, comboed, and chain thrown a lot.

If by combo-system you mean his CG, then yeah, sure. Too bad he loses to everybody, except Zelda, that he doesn't CG.

His air game is okay... unless it's air-to air, then it's good.

Good CPs? Such as?

Yeah, he is far.

Good range? Best grab range and... f-tilt?

His most reliable kill move is as strong as Snake's. It's really good, but not unique.


So, you mention that he's fat, but then basically say it's really easy to deal a lot of damage to him?
You also forgot to mention the fact that he's really easy to edgeguard due to his up-b being... well... slow enough that you can easily react to it if you are awake.
And the fact that his projectile has the same problem.

And the fact that being slow is REALLY bad in any Smash game.

 

[Kewkky]

No he's not bad. He's got a great combo system, Beasty air game, good cps, good survivability, good range, and good power.

The down side is being a big target, slow speed, and being able to get juggled, comboed, and chain thrown a lot.

DDD has combos? Oh wait, I forgot about his chaingrab.

This might sound pretty farfetched, but bear with me here... What if the opponent is, and this may sound crazy, careful about his RCO lag? I know, I know, too weird, everyone thinks that it's a bad option to do but I advocate it!


In all seriousness, what you're trying to say only works if opponents take unnecessary risks and fail. It's not an improvement AT ALL for DDD. What DDD could do before he can do now. What DDDs haven't been doing they still don't do. Nothing's changed, it's all in your mind.

 

[Laem]

You're all just mad cuz d3 can dthrow fsmash while your character relies on your opponent messing up.

 

[Kewkky]

You're all just mad cuz d3 can dthrow fsmash while your character relies on your opponent messing up.

Yeah, you're right. It affect DDD's metagame far too much, and I wanted to deny it. I might as well quit Brawl while I'm at it.

 

[Doc King]

If by combo-system you mean his CG, then yeah, sure. Too bad he loses to everybody, except Zelda, that he doesn't CG.

His air game is okay... unless it's air-to air, then it's good.

Good CPs? Such as?

Yeah, he is far.

Good range? Best grab range and... f-tilt?

His most reliable kill move is as strong as Snake's. It's really good, but not unique.


So, you mention that he's fat, but then basically say it's really easy to deal a lot of damage to him?
You also forgot to mention the fact that he's really easy to edgeguard due to his up-b being... well... slow enough that you can easily react to it if you are awake.
And the fact that his projectile has the same problem.

And the fact that being slow is REALLY bad in any Smash game.

He doesn't lose to every lightweight.

For cps he has Rainbow, Delfino, Pokemon Stadium 2, Halberd, and Yoshis for a few characters.

He does have good range with his back air, down tilt, and fair too.

Up tilt and Bair are good reliable kill moves. Even up smash to certain characters.

While being slow is pretty bad, it doesn't completely destroy a character. I mean Ike is pretty slow and he isn't low tier. Ganondorf in Melee is slow compared to the others, but he's not a bad character. It's just one of D3's biggest weaknesses that prevents him from being top tier.

DDD has combos? Oh wait, I forgot about his chaingrab.

This might sound pretty farfetched, but bear with me here... What if the opponent is, and this may sound crazy, careful about his RCO lag? I know, I know, too weird, everyone thinks that it's a bad option to do but I advocate it!


In all seriousness, what you're trying to say only works if opponents take unnecessary risks and fail. It's not an improvement AT ALL for DDD. What DDD could do before he can do now. What DDDs haven't been doing they still don't do. Nothing's changed, it's all in your mind.

Look, certain characters like Marth are forced to get RCO Lag. If a character can punish it pretty good, then the character can't roll or get up attack without getting punished for it. This will leave the opponent with limited recovering options on the ledge, which can make it easy to punish their options since you know that they're gonna not roll so you can punish it with a f tilt, bair, up tilt, etc. If you're gonna go all the way up, then you'll be forced to use an air option so you don't get f smashed or dash attacked or something, which makes the opponent predictable and punishable. Also D3 can force it with a dair.

 

[Kewkky]

Look, certain characters like Marth are forced to get RCO Lag. If a character can punish it pretty good, then the character can't roll or get up attack without getting punished for it. This will leave the opponent with limited recovering options on the ledge, which can make it easy to punish their options since you know that they're gonna not roll so you can punish it with a f tilt, bair, up tilt, etc. If you're gonna go all the way up, then you'll be forced to use an air option so you don't get f smashed or dash attacked or something, which makes the opponent predictable and punishable. Also D3 can force it with a dair.

Okay, let's see here.

Marth's upB gives him RCO lag. I'm sure the Marths knew, but didn't call it RCO (us Kirby mainers called it phantom lag). If they can't use upB, what do you expect them to do? Fall to their deaths? Whether they now know, knew before, or didn't know at all, they're still going to upB to recover.

DDD chaingrabbing Marth. Marths upB'd out of cg's before GIMR released the RCO video, and they also didn't upB to avoid the horrible freefall animation. Did DDDs grab Marth when he was freefalling after an upB before? I'm quite sure they did, good sir. Know why they didn't fsmash/whatever after they grabbed Marth? Because in the end, the chaingrab either gave them more damage, or it created a better positional advantage than fsmash can ever do. I'm sure Marths never upB'd during the chaingrab if they knew that it would get them killed, either. Why upB and die from being in freefall? Might as well just get cg'd and recover while offstage.

DDD's ability to fsmash/whatever Marth after a dthrow when Marth upB's. DDD has always been able to do this. The fact that they didn't know is called "matchup inexperience". You could've learned this back in '08 if you would've taken the time to learn about the character by going into his subforum and reading what people discovered, hell you could've done it the day before GIMR released his video. RCO is nothing new, it is very old news. It just doesn't have many usable applications, and those that can be great applications, the opponent will make sure to avoid those punishes.

If Marth upB's to recover and you're sitting down to try and grab him out of his aerial while he attempts to land, are you sure you can grab a spaced fair/nair? You can't grab a properly-spaced aerial, they don't lag THAT much after doing an aerial. What if he lands while doing a sideB? He gets no RCO lag then and you're gonna get hit for reacting as if he would've had lagged from landing. Then if the RCO lag is still active, while you're flying off due to getting hit, he just jumps, lands, and now your plan is ruined.


Knowing about RCO lag's existence doesn't change DDD's metagame. It's nice to know, but you should've known about it a long time ago. It was a hot topic a good while back, and we learned quite a lot from it before. Maybe you weren't around for the discussions when it happened, but then it was up to you to do the research and not make a big deal about something that doesn't warrant it.


EDIT: I don't mean to sound pissed off, nor am I trying to piss you off instead, it's just how my message looks like is all.

 

[NickRiddle]

He doesn't lose to every lightweight.

For cps he has Rainbow, Delfino, Pokemon Stadium 2, Halberd, and Yoshis for a few characters.

He does have good range with his back air, down tilt, and fair too.

Up tilt and Bair are good reliable kill moves. Even up smash to certain characters.

While being slow is pretty bad, it doesn't completely destroy a character. I mean Ike is pretty slow and he isn't low tier. Ganondorf in Melee is slow compared to the others, but he's not a bad character. It's just one of D3's biggest weaknesses that prevents him from being top tier.


Look, certain characters like Marth are forced to get RCO Lag. If a character can punish it pretty good, then the character can't roll or get up attack without getting punished for it. This will leave the opponent with limited recovering options on the ledge, which can make it easy to punish their options since you know that they're gonna not roll so you can punish it with a f tilt, bair, up tilt, etc. If you're gonna go all the way up, then you'll be forced to use an air option so you don't get f smashed or dash attacked or something, which makes the opponent predictable and punishable. Also D3 can force it with a dair.

You're right, he goes even with Zelda and he beats Jiggs.
Now, name 2 more that he doesn't lose to.

I fail to see how any of those CPs are actually good for him. I personally find BF to be his best stage, but that's because he cannot CG me. If you're talking about people he CGs... that's like everywhere.

Bair and d-tilt's ranges are okay. Nothing special.

If DDD is spacing at all with bair, it will not kill. Up-smash... d-throw up-smash maybe. It doesn't kill much from what I see.

Bring slow is terrible. Ganon isn't even close to as slow as DDD.

 

[Conviction]

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=5228077

 

[Supreme Dirt]

blahblahblah Dedede stuff Dedede sucks

waaaaaaaaaaaaah my character is totally good waaaaaaaaah RCO lag waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

be quyit ur bad

summary of the past page.

*goes back to not giving a damn about MU ratios because they don't matter*

 

[Brawlin]

Lmao Doc King just start going to tournaments or smashfests. You'll learn about matchups better offline. Wifi just isn't all that reliable. I doubt RCO lag has that much of an effect on a Marth who knows what they're doing anyway.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dedede vs. Jigglypuff isn't THAT bad for us. We camp and juggle D3 pretty hard, the only thing he has going for him really that puts in his favour is shield-grabbing, bair and utilt. And all of those can be avoided with enough practice in the match-up.

Which is pretty sad considering we're the 3rd worst character in the game.

 

[Doc King]

Wow, I completely didn't notice that this was a popular, already discovered thing.

Just curious though, has anyone been able to adapt to this with King Dedede, because I see like nobody using this technique (except for me).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I use it all the time, derp.

 

[-LzR-]

Not many ppl use it because it is totally not reliable or overall matchup changing and it's just a gimmick to abuse with bad Marths.

 

[da K.I.D.]

that would be like me discovering up throw spring up air with sonic two days ago and wondering why nobody does it. Because its easily avoidable and anybody thats been around for more than 2 months knows how to get out of it by now.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

all of you are dumb. ddd is a good character.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

all of you are dumb. ddd is a good character.

He speaks the truth.

 

[-LzR-]

He is good. Too bad he loses anyone great.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

who can i think of that makes this statement incorrect.......

oh ya:
snake
wario
marth
lucario

all great, all beaten by DDD.

all of you are dumb. DDD is a good character

 

[Alphicans]

Too bad you can have a pocket MK and just beat him.

 

[Steam]

Lucario is not great. he's good at absolute best. I'd describe him as mediocre

 

[-LzR-]

Dedede doesn't beat Marth or Snake and I don't think Wario is **** either.
Even MU doesn't really mean it's good.

 

[Doc King]

He is good. Too bad he loses anyone great.

Wrong. He beats this great guy on the left. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VdlvImEfuY

who can i think of that makes this statement incorrect.......

oh ya:
snake
wario
marth
lucario

all great, all beaten by DDD.

all of you are dumb. DDD is a good character

Indeed.

Too bad you can have a pocket MK and just beat him.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=5229984

Dedede doesn't beat Marth or Snake and I don't think Wario is **** either.
Even MU doesn't really mean it's good.

D3 does beat Marth and Snake to like a slight advantage. What ur saying is like saying MK doesn't beat Diddy so therefore, mk should be legal (A really dumb statement).

Also Wario imo is a complete advantage for D3 because his down throw for Wario is pretty severe, like in most slopes and certain stage types, you can infinite and/or do something like a walk off by dash dance pivot chain grabbing. Also unlike a lot of matchups, you can finish Wario pretty easily with the up smash and the up tilt. Also good luck approaching D3 with Wario.

 

[OverLade]

Dedede doesn't beat Marth or Snake and I don't think Wario is **** either.
Even MU doesn't really mean it's good.

Dedede DEFINITELY beats Snake, and Marth. Those are likely only 55:45 though, Wario is 6:4, though not unwinnable even then. While he loses to Falco, it's only 45:55 imo. Diddy Kong is 4:6 but not unwinnable for D3.

 

[Doc King]

Dedede DEFINITELY beats Snake, and Marth. Those are likely only 55:45 though, Wario is 6:4, though not unwinnable even then. While he loses to Falco, it's only 45:55 imo. Diddy Kong is 4:6 but not unwinnable for D3.

I would pretty much agree with you right there. He has some good top/high tier matchups and some bad top/high tier matchups.

 

[Chuee]

I would pretty much agree with you right there. He has some good top/high tier matchups and some bad top/high tier matchups.

Loses to:
MK, Diddy, Falco, ICs, Olimar, Pika, ZSS
while he beats or goes even with:
Snake, Marth, Wario, Lucario
He has more bad MUs than good in top/high

 

[Oblivion]

Why does Marth lose to Diddy?

 

[Judo777]

biggest issue with D3 is he does surprising well on half of high tier for his current position. However he also does surprisingly poor on half of high tier for his current position. And he ***** low tier and half of mid tier.

 

[Steam]

biggest issue with D3 are characters he can't chaingrab. without it he's a mid-low tier character at best... lol

 

[BlueXenon]

DDD has an advantage over Zelda with out CG's. DDD's defense game is almost as good as Zelda's and he has a much better offense game.

 

[Chuee]

DDD has an advantage over Zelda with out CG's. DDD's defense game is almost as good as Zelda's and he has a much better offense game.

Your point?
Zelda's terrible.

 

[FoxBlaze71]

And, one MU doesn't majorly affect his tier position.

BTW, this girl constantly trolls the Brawl In-Depth forum. So I guess we've transferred our problems to you.