Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[-LzR-]

Doc King why do you always make such a big deal about RCO lag punish? It's nothing game changing.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

because he has that super bias to his main(or anyone that has a chaingrab for that matter)

 

[-LzR-]

I know, but what does that have to do with the "the best RCO lag punisher in the game"tm?

 

[phi1ny3]

infinites aren't banned

also Lucario has a +3 on sonic and yoshi because yeah they can't really kill him and Lucario had an edge on them to begin with. though some of the sonics/yoshis are starting to think it's not so bad because they're working on the matchup.

Pretty much this, and lucario's walling does unusually well at stopping their primary tools (also Trela ***** at these MUs for some odd reason lol)

 

[Doc King]

Doc King why do you always make such a big deal about RCO lag punish? It's nothing game changing.

The main reasons why I do this is because I adapted to RCO Lag a lot with King Dedede and found a lot of cool followups he can do (Even lightweights). I think this can become something game changing to King Dedede because he's the only one who has a lot of use out of this, due to his d throw having set knockback, having powerful, but slow moves (RCO Lag gives Dedede time to followup), and how the d throw goes to hitstun to hard land lag (Give D3 time to perform cool followups). Even if you can't get the followup, you can put some pressure on the character like make his recovering more predictable so you can easily mind game him/her.

If anyone of you guys are interested on what D3 can do, then look at this http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=185012.

 

[-LzR-]

But the opponent can easily just land before you get the grab. Unless they use an aerial of some sort. Doesn't seem too applicable when the opponent is also aware of his RCO lag.

 

[Doc King]

But the opponent can easily just land before you get the grab. Unless they use an aerial of some sort. Doesn't seem too applicable when the opponent is also aware of his RCO lag.

Characters like Peach don't get too much affect since her RCO Lag is pretty situational, but characters like Marth have some pretty hard stuff. I mean if the D3 knows Marth is just gonna softland and nair, D3 can punish it with a f tilt and try to keep Marth off of the stage. Marth's recovery options become pretty predictable against Dedede and with D3's good edge guarding game, D3 can make it hard for Marth to recover and pressure him a lot off stage.

 

[-LzR-]

Well Marth sucks at getting off the ledge, it's no breaking news.
It's just that Marth players will be aware of it and not just jump into your grab to be RCO punished.

 

[Doc King]

Well Marth sucks at getting off the ledge, it's no breaking news.
It's just that Marth players will be aware of it and not just jump into your grab to be RCO punished.

Again, it doesn't just improve D3's combo system, it also improves D3's mindgames, lag punishes, edge guarding, and pressuring.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

If a character is landing with RCO lag we have VERY powerful punishes to cover their landing.

It's not a very large gamechanger against Marth though. If Marth Up-B's to try and escape the CG, we can grab -> DThrow -> Dash Attack, getting a whole extra 6% before hitting with dash attack, which while it makes kill% a little lower, is not too useful because most good Marths will know to just hold away.

From the ledge isn't all that amazing. I mean, sure, if the Marth is bad... but more likely he'll get back onstage and cancel out the lag with FAir, NAir, or UAir.

Doesn't really change the MU too much, it's a slight advantage for us and that's all it'll ever be.

 

[Doc King]

It's not gonna change the matchup too much, but it will improve the matchup a bit to like 5 moved towards his favor like if the matchup was considered 55:45, now it would be considered 60:40.

Good D3's can find ways to punish Marth's recovery options like f tilt his nair soft lands, bair his getting up from an edge animation, etc.

The best part for D3 is that it reduces Marths getting up from the edge options from 4 to 2 which makes mindgaming easier and putting marth into risky situations better.

 

[-LzR-]

Never, ever take mindgames into a discussion when it's about matchups.

 

[Doc King]

Never, ever take mindgames into a discussion when it's about matchups.

Sorry. Forgot that mindgaming was a player thing rather than a character thing.

 

[-LzR-]

It's a common mistake especially for never players who have just "discovered" mindgames.
Just know Dededes and Marths options and you can theorycraft all day.

 

[Doc King]

I think a good ratio we should call the D3 vs. Marth matchup a 60:40.

 

[-LzR-]

I dunno, you should use the BBR stuff like +2 or so on.
I don't really know the MU well, but it sure is better than Peach vs Marth.

 

[Doc King]

It seems like a +1 or a +2. I gotta see how all of the stages work.

With the bat banned, D3 will probably be the marth counter.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

for a moment i thought you were referring to the item.....

 

[Doc King]

for a moment i thought you were referring to the item.....

lol no. I meant the God of Brawl, Meta Knight!

 

[-LzR-]

Doesn't Diddy Kong also beat Marths slightly? Marth doesn't have any real counters, but he has some bad MUs. Without MK he is the counter to the best characters in the game, but he can also be countered.
It sounds so interesting...

 

[Luigi player]

Marth haz no countrs he beats evry1 and is brokn ban him plz

 

[Doc King]

Marth haz no countrs he beats evry1 and is brokn ban him plz

has

 

[Laem]

D3 vs marth is quite even, potentially marths favor.

 

[Doc King]

D3 vs marth is quite even, potentially marths favor.

No way man. Potentially it's actually a +2 for King Dedede because if the King Dedede is smart, he can try to fully adapt to Marth's rco lag as much as he can.

You guys seem to think that all King Dedede is, is a dash chain grabber. King Dedede has a lot more than that to him.

 

[Shaya]

Marth's still seem to be getting better at the match up over time (there used to be wipe outs from the marth camp in this regard). People like Neo supposedly destroy any d3 he plays? very well spaced neutral air (and it's tactics) combined with good landing mix up + reasonably solid mix ups from grabs of his own.

Marth can get off so much damage from them getting a good start (grabs... jab... aerials), and marth players are getting better at avoiding d3's stupidly amazing gimping and edge guard game he has going on marth (which of course Marth does a fair bit to d3 too).

Honestly... seems evenish at this point... maybe still slight disadvantage (like -0.4)

 

[Doc King]

Marth's still seem to be getting better at the match up over time (there used to be wipe outs from the marth camp in this regard). People like Neo supposedly destroy any d3 he plays? very well spaced neutral air (and it's tactics) combined with good landing mix up + reasonably solid mix ups from grabs of his own.

Marth can get off so much damage from them getting a good start (grabs... jab... aerials), and marth players are getting better at avoiding d3's stupidly amazing gimping and edge guard game he has going on marth (which of course Marth does a fair bit to d3 too).

Honestly... seems evenish at this point... maybe still slight disadvantage (like -0.4)

The only thing though is that once ppl found out about Marth's rco lag, I've been actually adapting to it a lot and I seemed to find some followups, pressures, and punishes that D3 can do. An example would be how Marth tries to get back up the stages with a soft land lag, but I was able to punish it with an up tilt. RCO Lag makes it hard for Marth to get back up the stage without getting punished or killed by D3. If Marth is gonna soft land, then D3 can punish it with an f tilt or up tilt.

Overall, Marths will find it hard to recover when D3 sends him off stage. Also D3 can chain throw Marth to the edge, which means that you can send him off pretty easily.

 

[C.J.]

RCO lag is dumb, this is true. However, it's not a big deal. RCO doesn't REALLY affect match-ups. It's annoying sure, but it's not as important as you think it is.

If we can get off the ledge vs MK with it, we can get off the ledge vs DDD with it.

 

[Doc King]

RCO lag is dumb, this is true. However, it's not a big deal. RCO doesn't REALLY affect match-ups. It's annoying sure, but it's not as important as you think it is.

If we can get off the ledge vs MK with it, we can get off the ledge vs DDD with it.

You do have a point about mk. Although D3 can actually force rco lag and make more use out of rco lag than mk can. Like King Dedede's dair can drill Marth to the ground and Marth will go to his hard land lag. In some situations like when Marth is trying to cancel rco lag with a nair, D3 can use the dair to up tilt to finish Marth off (Sort of like Fox's dair).

 

[Shaya]

RCO lag is dumb, and its been apart of the match up for 3 years.
What of it? We **** you with edge guards too.

 

[Doc King]

RCO lag is dumb, and its been apart of the match up for 3 years.
What of it? We **** you with edge guards too.

However, that was when it wasn't discovered yet. Now that it's discovered, I've found cool ways to adapt to it.

Also, our edge guarding game is better than yours, while it's pretty good, we have more options to our edge guarding game than you guys.

 

[Shaya]

.... you have more options in your edge guarding game.... umm... yeah 3 jumps, fast fall and back air.... that's your options...

And I don't know about you... but I've been playing against Dededes and Marth's as Dedede to know that they realised Marth has terrible lag from dolphin slashing at the ledge.... seriously....

 

[Supreme Dirt]

RCO lag has been known for ages, Doc King.

AGES.

Like... I knew about it back in 09 before I got into Brawl competitively.

imo the MU is +1 our favour.

 

[Anthon1996]

I knew about it in 2008, y' know, when I got the game and noticed that whenever I did a recovery move and when I grabbed the ledge, I would get that annoying lag when I got back on stage? I even knew that landing with an aerial attack would get rid of the lag. How on Earth could they have possibly missed that glitch? It sure wasn't in Melee or 64.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I didn't own the game yet in 08, I got it early 09.

Though I'm sure I would've noticed it had I gotten it in 08.

 

[Doc King]

.... you have more options in your edge guarding game.... umm... yeah 3 jumps, fast fall and back air.... that's your options...

And I don't know about you... but I've been playing against Dededes and Marth's as Dedede to know that they realised Marth has terrible lag from dolphin slashing at the ledge.... seriously....

Correction: 4 jumps, f tilt, f air, down tilt.

What do you guys have besides fair?

RCO lag has been known for ages, Doc King.

AGES.

Like... I knew about it back in 09 before I got into Brawl competitively.

imo the MU is +1 our favour.

I would agree as of now, both players have good followups, chain throws, and combos, but King Dedede has more and better of those than Marth has.

I knew about it in 2008, y' know, when I got the game and noticed that whenever I did a recovery move and when I grabbed the ledge, I would get that annoying lag when I got back on stage? I even knew that landing with an aerial attack would get rid of the lag. How on Earth could they have possibly missed that glitch? It sure wasn't in Melee or 64.

Interesting, I didn't know ppl knew about this already. I never knew it. It's probably because you play Luigi and so when you played, you probably realized whenever you landed, this lag thing would come. Also the metagame minute 10 said it was a newly discovered thing, so I thought it was something new.

I can't believe though I'm one of the few ppl that have adapted to this gaming mechanic.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Luigi doesn't have RCO lag though.

And people have been abusing RCO lag for ages.

I mean, the number of times I've NAir-> USmash'd Falco's Phantasm with Ivysaur over the years...

 

[Doc King]

Luigi doesn't have RCO lag though.

And people have been abusing RCO lag for ages.

I mean, the number of times I've NAir-> USmash'd Falco's Phantasm with Ivysaur over the years...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWH-py8VENU#t=43s

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I stand corrected.

 

[Anthon1996]

I stand corrected.

All you had to do was go to Training, pick Luigi, just up B to your closest ledge on FD, then land normally, causing the lag. It only would've taken you 1 minute.

You can't just assume things.

 

[Kewkky]

All you had to do was go to Training, pick Luigi, just up B to your closest ledge on FD, then land normally, causing the lag. It only would've taken you 1 minute.

You can't just assume things.

Yeah, now it's obvious because people watched GIMR's video. Back when no one cared about RCO mechanics (people still don't care), no one would've bothered to know whether or not Luigi had RCO lag or not. They would just play the MU as they've always done.

Plus he admitted he stands corrected, it's kinda moot to be talking about how disappointing it is he didn't know about that.