Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Maharba the Mystic]

yo guys, im looking for a secondary. what is a character that doesn't take massive amounts of tech skill to use that is good? i use pit (duh) and he has so much tech skill involved that i don't want to take the time to learn a character that needs a bunch of ATs again as it would take to long and i don't want it messing up my pit tech skill

edit: will someone who uses ICs also discuss the MU here with me? from how i see it, it should +1 pit not -1 against us. i want to inteligently debate this with someone. also i would like to discuss pit vs fox (which i feel should only our favor on CP and neutral everywhere else, which could warrent a 0) and pit vs olimar (which could be -1, would like to discuss). the least important and thus last thing i would like is to put in why i think pit/falco is dead even, whereas many feel it is -1 for pit.

sidenote:

on the subject of wolf, all of the pit and wolf mains have always agreed that it is a dead even MU, i just realized it is listed as -1 wolf, and that is just not true.

 

[King Funk]

yo guys, im looking for a secondary. what is a character that doesn't take massive amounts of tech skill to use that is good? i use pit (duh) and he has so much tech skill involved that i don't want to take the time to learn a character that needs a bunch of ATs again as it would take to long and i don't want it messing up my pit tech skill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNfMPf_72Vo

 

[Starwave]

Obvious answer: Metaknight

If you don't want to join the Metaknight army, Falco has excellent with Pit because he can check MK and goes even / beats all of Pits soft counters. General characters that share good synergy with Pit are excellent. Cross matching his matchups is the way to go.

Edit

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

-.- that didn't help me in the slightest.

also, just to be specific, IT CAN'T BE MK. i don't believe in using him personally. i don't care if others do, as i know the MU very well (shoutout to sync, my bretheren). but i don't like using him, plus if he gets banned i now am left without a secondary which would be gay -.-

edit:

starwave, you ninja'd me. i've been considering falco. who else?

 

[Starwave]

-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:

(I know the matchups aren't set in stone, but for the sake of posterity lets assume that these matchups are correct)

Pit is countered by MK and Wario
Pit loses to Snake, ICs, Marth, G&W

By cross matching the entire cast's matchups with Pit you obtain several viable mains.

1. MK: obvious
2. Falco: goes even with MK*, Snake, Wario, Marth and G&W, but also loses to IC. Pit goes even with Pikachu and does significantly better vs ICs. Good synergy.
3. Marth: loses to MK, but does better than Pit, goes even with ICs, beats Wario and G&W, slight advantage vs Snake. Pit only benefits Marth by going even with Diddy, aside from that he doesn't cover much that Marth can't deal with already.


Unfortunately I coulldn't find any good partners for Pit in the lower tiers.

 

[Kinzer]

Also, Sonics add up damage using side B, but Zelda can stop it.

With what?

 

[Shaya]

Fsmash and usmash spam kinzer, obviously.

 

[Kinzer]

FSmash gets me everytime.

I would think that it's slow enough that you can sneak in a DA, but anytime I'm at killing range I get scared and I get walled out.

It's not fair.

 

[BlueXenon]

I think down tilt also stops it.

 

[infiniteV115]

Kinzer and Shaya, your avatars are very similar

And perhaps I know absolutely nothing about Pit, but I don't think he requires any tech skill. I mean, arrow looping...what else?

And I would suggest Marth, Maharba. He beats all of Pit's bad MUs (the ones that Starwave listed) except for MK, but nobody beats MK. And obviously he goes even with Marth XD

That's my input, but if you're still stuck maybe you should think about stages as well. Find a secondary that can do well on the stages on which Pit doesn't do too well.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

even i hardly arrow loop anymore. and pit has a lot of mobility related ATs that non pits wouldn't probably know about that really make a differance in how well he does, plus all of his footstool shenanigans that we've found of late, and perfect buffering on a lot of his true combos make for a plethora of ATs, arrows are just the beginning.

and ya i've considered marth again to, i was wondering wat people thought about a possible second being olimar or g&w? besides, for MUs like snake and marth, i would use pit. the chart is straight up wrong about snake not to mention while marth is definately a -1, he still isn't that hard for pit.

but thank you for your advice, marth is always a good choice for a second usually

 

[Laem]

Looking at the chart, I'd say try dedede. Good enough vs wario, snake, marth and g&w.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

hm..... DDD would be solid. and hell, you can't even call his CG an AT it's so easy to perform. i just may do that

 

[Starwave]

Unfortunately DDD has a solid disadvantage vs MK. He's a great partner otherwise, but losing to MK badly is a massive turn off.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

ya but i can go pit vs MK because i can play the MU well. even if it's bad for pit, i can do it well enough. DDD is pretty enticing, but so is falco. i guess we'll just have to see

 

[Doc King]

's +1 match-ups in order from hardest to easiest:

1. 
2. 
3. 
4. 
5. 
6. 
7. 
8. 
9. 

could fit in there somewhere, but everyone would disagree with me, so I'll leave him out for now.

NONE of those characters go even with Meta Knight. NO characters go even with Meta Knight. He beats everyone +2 on his counter-picks. He STILL has a +1 advantage against everyone on Final Destination (though some +1s are closer to even and some +2s become +1s). Does everyone in this thread get it?

I think you have Falco too low on that list. He should probably be 2nd on that list (Right below Diddy). I think that Diddy and Falco go even with the Knight. I've seen good Falco players win against mks. Diddy Kong is pretty much the same thing. Diddy and Falco have some good tools they can use on MK like Naners, Chain throw, they can cp him to delfino and japes and use there meteors as Water spikes. Falco can followup with his chain grab to a down air where mk will hit the water and it would leave mk to a bad position against Falco. Diddy same thing but with no followups.

Looking at the chart, I'd say try dedede. Good enough vs wario, snake, marth and g&w.

Yeah.

hm..... DDD would be solid. and hell, you can't even call his CG an AT it's so easy to perform. i just may do that

Well, King Dedede has a slope infinite on Wario that isn't that easy to perform, but it can be very rewarding if you get the timing right (And not too hard either). Also King Dedede has some good followups on Wario (Up smash and Up tilt). Matchup is really good for the King imo.

 

[Kinzer]

I think down tilt also stops it.

Now you're speaking like a true Backroomer.

Spoiler

It doesn't stop it BTW.

Kinzer and Shaya, your avatars are very similar

Nonsense! Clear difference between cat hears and rabbit ears.

Spoiler

One's better.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The shell shifting stuff seems to be so so against walk spacing dtilts/ftilts... while sliding ftilts, shields and grabs are cool and all - shell shifting is good theoretically in the neutral situation.. but when squirtle's vying for time or MK has a lead that 50/50 stacks a lot negatively. I'm still not sure how Squirtle handles MK zoning near a ledge considering he gets nearly nothing by knocking him off stage or to the ledge at all ;_;.

I see the point you can bring up where that 50/50 used properly is a strong means of squirtle handling the match up... I just don't think Squirtle can ever get that neutral situation to abuse it in the first place ;\

Squirtle with a lead is a whole different ball game though.

I swear, I posted a response to this yesterday, but it never went up. Oh well...

Shellshifting becomes good against Meta Knight's tilts and D-Smash when you throw in shellstalling, which adds up to 20 extra frames of just sitting there before the slide star, depending on how long Squirtle wants to hold it. With that, Meta Knight isn't even close to guaranteed to getting perfect spacing each time, so a jab in-between attacks or a shieldgrab after getting through the spacing on a tilt. It also means that a Shuttle Loop that whiffed due to a shellshift can be punished, despite Squirtle's bad run speed.

Given that, the matchup would be okay if not for Meta Knight's ability to just run away for two minutes, with "okay" being a -1, but fatigue is rougher for Squirtle in this matchup than Charizard, for sure, and rougher for Squirtle in this matchup than most of Squirtle's other matchups.

 

[Fuujin]

FSmash gets me everytime.

I would think that it's slow enough that you can sneak in a DA, but anytime I'm at killing range I get scared and I get walled out.

It's not fair.

One of the best moves in the game imho .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nuoFfza2w

 

[BlueXenon]

Can someone explain why Wario has +1 over Yoshi? I thought it would be at least a -1.

 

[Kinzer]

One of the best moves in the game imho .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4nuoFfza2w

Oh my...

Yeah, I keep forgetting that you can at least SDI up.

Why bother though? Messing it up at killing percent means death. I would in that case rather not take the hit and not worry about it all-together. Not to mention if you get by the later parts, you have less time to SDI and thus less time to not mess up. I hate how her attacks last longer when it hits something, it tricks me into making me drop my shield sooner than I'm suppose to. I need to ban Castle Siege.

Poor girl, I should really help Ven out with getting better. Somehow he makes her work, just very inefficient with her. Need more people like him using the under-represented characters at a higher level.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Can someone explain why Wario has +1 over Yoshi? I thought it would be at least a -1.

Yoshi has trouble moving up to Wario without putting himself at risk of taking great damage. Shielding is unsafe for Yoshi, and Yoshi's large body makes it difficult for him to avoid every single juggle attempt. Yoshi has a difficult time landing a KO move on a campy Wario, too.

 

[Delta-cod]

I personally feel like the Wario MU is even. The infinite isn't effective at all at high levels because good Warios don't get grabbed with a platform there to help often, although GR options do provide us with kill set ups (up angled Fsmash, Usmash for damage, Uair as well I believe).

Both characters really have problems approaching the other without putting themselves at risk, so it really becomes a game of percentages, and the character who gets a solid lead early on will typically win the match.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

vs ~ 5/5

Discuss

 

[Delta-cod]

Marth has better options at neutral than we do. It's a disadvantage, but it's not huge.

 

[Orion*]

Nobody agrees with me that Peach beats Fox in Melee >.>
/sigh

No....

Peach punishes really well. And armada is smart enough to pull of those reads with a good but not top character.

Like you arguing that, is equivalent to me arguing like...

Snake/Marth vs MK being in their favor or something.

starwave, you ninja'd me. i've been considering falco. who else?

Falco will actually take tech skill if you want to not suck with him.

Play DDD/Wario

If you want to go for gimmicks try DK. IMO (some people argue he does or whatever) doesn't win really but people don't know wtf to do, and in your situation you will probably only use him if pit doesnt work anyway right?

 

[DJ Arcatek]

Falco is one of those characters that doesn't really work as a secondary, in my opinion. He's a character you have to put some time into, so if you're gonna play him, you might as well main him and second Pit or something.

EDIT: Yeee, 1,111th post.

 

[Browny]

Marth has better options at neutral than we do. It's a disadvantage, but it's not huge.

projectile vs no projectile?

how are you defining neutral lol.

 

[Delta-cod]

I define neutral as the state when neither character has momentum going over the other.

Eggs aren't effective against Marth at neutral. He has a low dash animation and fast run speed to get under them, as well as good air speed to get through them. They have some uses, but are heavily limited comapred to most other MUs.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Marth is even with some characters, I dunno about Yoshi though. I doubt that one.

 

[Sinister Slush]

No, absolutely not.
-1 seems about right at most.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Falco will actually take tech skill if you want to not suck with him.

Play DDD/Wario

If you want to go for gimmicks try DK. IMO (some people argue he does or whatever) doesn't win really but people don't know wtf to do, and in your situation you will probably only use him if pit doesnt work anyway right?

pretty much yeah. though when i compared MUs for who i would use a secondary for, the only people who qualified were DDD, Marth, and Peach. DK was actually a big no since he loses to wario, the main reason i want a secondary. DDD is the easiest of these character's to use so ill probably use him. marth doesn't necessarily need so much actual tech skill but just using marth is tech skill imo so im not gonna use him. and peach looks like she need tech skill to play just from watching/playing them as much as i've seen but she is in the running none the less just because if it's easy to do her stuff then she does better than DDD does against my troublesome MUs.

edit: post 2323. weird

 

[Orion*]

Falco is one of those characters that doesn't really work as a secondary, in my opinion. He's a character you have to put some time into, so if you're gonna play him, you might as well main him and second Pit or something.

EDIT: Yeee, 1,111th post.

I honestly think a lot of characters are like that though.

Marth, Falco, ICs, Pika, kinda Fox, immediately come to mind.

Snake, Diddy, Wario, DDD, kinda Oli would be easy to second IMO.

MK would be on the easy list if everyone and their mom didn't know how to use him. Past a certain skill gap though it still shows he's very easy to pick up

 

[stingers]

Wow some of the MU's are just dumb.... There is no way R.O.B goes even with Diddy, that is at least a -1 for R.O.B.

naww its even.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I honestly think a lot of characters are like that though.

Marth, Falco, ICs, Pika, kinda Fox, immediately come to mind.

Snake, Diddy, Wario, DDD, kinda Oli would be easy to second IMO.

MK would be on the easy list if everyone and their mom didn't know how to use him. Past a certain skill gap though it still shows he's very easy to pick up

lolwut? Diddy takes time, sure not as much as ICies or Falco, but he's not someone you can just choose on a whim and succeed. You also forgot MK in your easy to play group, in fact, you should just make a Super Easy To Use group and put MK there.

 

[Ghostbone]

Diddy isn't that hard to play decently.
Learning banana combos isn't that hard >.>

 

[Orion*]

lolwut? Diddy takes time, sure not as much as ICies or Falco, but he's not someone you can just choose on a whim and succeed. You also forgot MK in your easy to play group, in fact, you should just make a Super Easy To Use group and put MK there.

N**** like I actually agree with ghostbone LMAO

Also, I said MK is easy to pick up. I just think at tournament level seeing immediate success is hard because people know the MU, but after a certain point you get past that. If you're just gonna be a salty ***** and not read the whole post then don't bother responding to me.

Even like the asscracks of smashboards can afford reading like a 3 sentence post. Don't demote yourself below that at least LMAO

Diddy isn't that hard to play decently.
Learning banana combos isn't that hard >.>

 

[-LzR-]

Banana combos aren't the hard part. It's the part about not getting ***** by your own bananas and actually controlling the stage with them.

 

[Sync.]

d3 vs tl even y

 

[archer.]

Even though D3 can chaingrab TL, TL isn't exactly the easiest character to grab, and D3 doesn't exactly have the easiest time catching him in the air (or on the ground for that matter) either. But once TL is off stage he gets ***** by bair. And D3 lives forever.