Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[M@v]

there's no way Falco marth is +2 for marth. Fox might be, but Falco at least has some spacing tools vs marth. I can definitely see a +1 for Marth. I feel its Falco's only bad mu outside of pika and icies. If we're going by old ratios, I think its anywhere from 55:45 to 60:40 marth.

 

[Nike.]

LMFAO at Mystic.

 

[Browny]

keep filling those pots and losing to supposed advantaged-matchup characters marth, the viable characters thank you for your donations.

 

[OverLade]

there's no way Falco marth is +2 for marth. Fox might be, but Falco at least has some spacing tools vs marth. I can definitely see a +1 for Marth. I feel its Falco's only bad mu outside of pika and icies. If we're going by old ratios, I think its anywhere from 55:45 to 60:40 marth.

I translate +1 to 55/45, and +2 to 6/4. Anything else is too arbitrary...

keep filling those pots and losing to supposed advantaged-matchup characters marth, the viable characters thank you for your donations.

I believe the other top tier characters just have signifantly stronger players backing their results. The USA only has 2 real top Marth players, Mike and NEO, with MY BOY NEO STRAIGHT SLACKIN IT UP and Mike losing to MKs/Using MK.

Marth has a LOT of close matchups, which means just because you have an advantage doesn't mean you'll win. Snake/Diddy/Falco have always proved easier to apply than Marth, though imo not significantly better.

ICs are incredibly difficult to apply but imo are the 2nd best character after MK easily for example.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I lol'd pretty hard at Ice Climbers being the second best character.

You're adorable, RedHalberd.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

actually halberd me and vinnie had a long talk about how we both think ICs are the second best character and actually only lose to MK and snake. those 2 aside both of us believe they go even/beat the rest of the cast

 

[Chuee]

Doesn't Vinnie think that ICs snake is even though?

 

[Tesh]

yes, in theory, on FD, ICs beat everyone cept MK.

We use humans in these competitions though. Between stage striking and stage banning ICs will wind up on a stage where they can be camped and exploited. This is even MORE true in a Bo5 (something required for winning tournaments!), where they pretty much have to CP themselves if they make it to game 5.

ICs is a STRONG gimmick. Like GnW + energy junk on doubles. The overall package isn't the best and never will be with this ruleset.

 

[OverLade]

I lol'd pretty hard at Ice Climbers being the second best character.

You're adorable, RedHalberd.

How is a character that kills from 1 grab not the best character?

Find me a vid of a top ICs player that loses because he got outplayed and not because he dropped 1 or 2 grabs? The character should be almost unbeatable outside of MK and Snake. You can almost powershield anything into a grab and get 3 chances to 0-death 3 of your opponents stocks. There's a reason ICs dominate in Japan, because their average and highest level technical proficiency is far superior to ours. ICs players not dropping grabs = ICs ****** everything except MK.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

And that is why I'm picking up ICs.

 

[OverLade]

MK is the only character that beats ICs imo. After 2D-Jeff showed me that you can CG around nades, you have literally not guaranteed way to avoid getting grabbed if ICs is near you when you land. B reversal mixups are good but there's too much lag before you can drop the nade. I think ICs Snake is at least 55-45 ICs favor.

 

[Steam]

How is a character that kills from 1 grab not the best character?

Find me a vid of a top ICs player that loses because he got outplayed and not because he dropped 1 or 2 grabs? The character should be almost unbeatable outside of MK and Snake. You can almost powershield anything into a grab and get 3 chances to 0-death 3 of your opponents stocks. There's a reason ICs dominate in Japan, because their average and highest level technical proficiency is far superior to ours. ICs players not dropping grabs = ICs ****** everything except MK.

you can't assume a level of play that doesn't exist though... if the current top IC level isn't "perfect" then they have to be rated on that level because the tier list reflects current top level play

 

[Tesh]

Japan only plays on ICs best stages? I'm sure we might consider GnW 2nd best in the game in a ruleset with only Brinstar/RC/Ps2.

 

[Cassio]

I'm sure we might consider GnW 2nd best in the game in a ruleset with only Brinstar/RC/Ps2.

ROFL. I would play that game

 

[Alphicans]

I'd be in heaven.

 

[Shaya]

PS2 as the standard starter over smashville/battlefield would be amazing

 

[Tesh]

PS2 as the standard starter over smashville/battlefield would be amazing

I'd say replace FD. SV should always be a starter simply because people love it so much.

But I love anyone that loves PS2.

Ideal starter list would obviously be YI:Brawl, Rainbow Cruise, Ps2, Delfino Plaza and Battlfield.

 

[-LzR-]

PS2 is imo one of the best starters and a popular stage here.

 

[Cassio]

I wouldnt mind PS2 as a starter. But not over FD. SV or lylat ideally.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

you can't assume a level of play that doesn't exist though... if the current top IC level isn't "perfect" then they have to be rated on that level because the tier list reflects current top level play

Japan only plays on ICs best stages? I'm sure we might consider GnW 2nd best in the game in a ruleset with only Brinstar/RC/Ps2.

^This is why you are insane, RH^

Melee has been out for 10 years and ICs still can't beat everyone like this, what makes Brawl any different in this respect?

I wouldnt mind PS2 as a starter. But not over FD. SV or lylat ideally.

Why? FD is an awful starter, lol.

 

[Yikarur]

melee's shield sucks :D

 

[KuroganeHammer]

IC's are overrated.

Just jump in the air and do retreating aerials and laugh as they try feebly to punish with that grab range.

 

[Psychoace]

There is no "citation" for metagame and frame data lol, just look at the character's options, watch them perform at a high level, etc...

Just sayin', this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NyvpsniLbA

Doesn't happen with Fox/Falco/Olimar/Snake.

Commentary at 1:18-1:23 lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

melee's shield sucks :D

Not enough to turn them from best character to 8th or whatever they are right now.

 

[Yikarur]

you know the difference between melee shield and brawl shield?
then you know that in melee the attacks that hit the shield are almost always safe on-shield?
the difference is enormous.

 

[Browny]

I like how I knew what that video was going to be merely by grims description

 

[Shaya]

Grim do you realise you just stated that Fox/Falco/Olimar/Snake don't get gimped by meta knight at high level play?

 

[Tesh]

I thought he meant the shocking reverse 3 stock by nadoloop.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

you know the difference between melee shield and brawl shield?
then you know that in melee the attacks that hit the shield are almost always safe on-shield?
the difference is enormous.

I'd recommend actually playing Melee before claiming that attacks are always safe on shield, lol.

Grim do you realise you just stated that Fox/Falco/Olimar/Snake don't get gimped by meta knight at high level play?

Um... no I didn't? Lol.

 

[Alien Vision]

Is Ganondorf really the worst character? With excellent reading he can destroy characters like Zelda with relative ease!

 

[-LzR-]

Reads don't matter when you have no options to take advantage of them.

 

[Flayl]

Marth can't recover from above against MK - Snake, Fox and maybe Olimar can.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Ganondorf can also destroy nub MK's and people who make lots of mistakes.

 

[Vinnie]

actually halberd me and vinnie had a long talk about how we both think ICs are the second best character and actually only lose to MK and snake.

They lose to mk -1, then diddy/marth/zss might be -1 or 0. They go even with or beat everyone else.

Doesn't Vinnie think that ICs snake is even though?

I think it's +1 ics' favor with port priority and 0 without it.

IC's are overrated.

Just jump in the air and do retreating aerials and laugh as they try feebly to punish with that grab range.

Lol, one of the most ignorant posts I have seen in a while. What ICs have you played?

 

[Shaya]

One match proves that?

How many matches are there with M2K ****** ally recovering above the stage?
double standards. Let's see it happen more than just one set - Mike also got a lot of grab release dairs which are ACTUALLY guaranteed, unlike 'scooping'.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Lol, one of the most ignorant posts I have seen in a while.

It's not ignorant, it's true.

 

[Shaya]

Aerodome, it isn't true.

Ice Climbers with reads can power shield slide forward grab and are able to grab people out of a lot of things (including crossing over which you'd probably need to do eventually). Retreating against them can be punished and they don't have that bad of an edge guarding game.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You missed an "r".

 

[Flayl]

One match proves that?

How many matches are there with M2K ****** ally recovering above the stage?
double standards. Let's see it happen more than just one set - Mike also got a lot of grab release dairs which are ACTUALLY guaranteed, unlike 'scooping'.

Where did I mention any match? I was talking about recovering against MK in general.

 

[Vinnie]

Aerodrome, you also forget the fact that ICs are an actual CHARACTER, not a grab machine. Yes, you will most likely die if you get grabbed, but they also have amazing priority and damage output on their other attacks. You must be playing vs bad Ice Climber players, and judging by the fact that I've never heard your name before, you most likely have never played or beaten any good IC player.