Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Ussi]

^good i didn't want to mention him anyways

 

[Thebest1pj]

smoom wins one biweekly and gets a big head

 

[Conviction]

Well Damn.

 

[da K.I.D.]

at least smoom can win something.

 

[t3h Icy]

-1:
0:
1:

So is the BBR going to tell us if Chain->Din's Fire combos are good or are they trying to confuse Dedede players because they're biased? Or do Sheik and Zelda get tired like Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon?

Also put the character images along the right hand side, bottom and on the mirror match-ups so it looks better.

 

[da K.I.D.]

zelda and shiek used together in the right circumstances is better than the sum of the parts individually.

 

[Alphicans]

I really don't get how that's confusing at all...

 

[T-block]

-1:
0:
1:

So is the BBR going to tell us if Chain->Din's Fire combos are good or are they trying to confuse Dedede players because they're biased? Or do Sheik and Zelda get tired like Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon?

Also put the character images along the right hand side, bottom and on the mirror match-ups so it looks better.

In simplified terms, Sheik deals damage but has troubles landing the KO, and switching to Zelda can alleviate that.

Shouldn't that be obvious?

 

[phi1ny3]

^Yes, and conversely, Zelda can be picked earlier to avoid death chain grabs (which although is still bad to be Zelda, usually people prefer to take chances for getting out of those as opposed to getting 0-100 CG'd as sheik, if only for as long until one is out of CG percents).

 

[Fuujin]

In simplified terms, Sheik deals damage but has troubles landing the KO, and switching to Zelda can alleviate that.

but she doesn't.

You guys are stuck in this theory crafted strategy of:
Start off as Sheik.
Sheik gets opponent to 130%.
Switch to Zelda.
Zelda kills.
Switch back.

When irl against any opponent who knows how to shield it goes:
Start off as Sheik.
Sheik gets opponent to 130%.
Switch to Zelda.
Zelda can't land a kill move because she has no approach.

Zelda dun do well against Dedede anyways.
Just walk up to her and f tilt.
What's she gonna do?

^Yes, and conversely, Zelda can be picked earlier to avoid death chain grabs (which although is still bad to be Zelda, usually people prefer to take chances for getting out of those as opposed to getting 0-100 CG'd as sheik, if only for as long until one is out of CG percents).

Sheik doesn't get chain grabbed by Dedede.

 

[Laem]

He's obv talking about pika primarily.

Also zelda kills by spamming spotdodge till the opponent messes up and then dsmash or dtilt usmash :D

 

[Shaya]

In the case of Zelda against Dedede, she has dat shield pokaaaann action going for her

 

[Juushichi]

Fuujin, you forgot the theorycraft part about DeDeDe having to approach Zelda after Sheik transforms.

Ideally, I guess you transform after hitting DDD off the stage and forcing him to recover against an edgeguarding Zelda. Technically he is approaching now!

 

[Shaya]

Well, at least Zelda has enough going for her that even Dedede would have a hard time approaching her.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ inb4fuujin

 

[Judo777]

Fuujin, you forgot the theorycraft part about DeDeDe having to approach Zelda after Sheik transforms.

Ideally, I guess you transform after hitting DDD off the stage and forcing him to recover against an edgeguarding Zelda. Technically he is approaching now!

Even more ideally you should have racked up a good amount of damage on D3 before transforming. You should have a lead.

 

[Fuujin]

^ inb4fuujin

Not even gonna reply to it.

Even more ideally you should have racked up a good amount of damage on D3 before transforming. You should have a lead.

Again, what's Zelda gonna do if Dedede walks up to her and starts spamming a spaced
f tilt?

EDIT: In fact I need a good laugh, let me namebait the other Zeldas in here so they can explain why Zelda goes even against Dedede.
Riot Gotathand ZeldaMaster_1 ScaryLB59 AlanHaTe vennn JigglyZelda003 Sonic The Hedgedawg

 

[Juushichi]

but fuuuuuuuuuujiiiiiiin.

DDD without a lead has to approach Zelda and like... what DDD knows how to fight Zelda in the first place? Totally ****ing legit.

 

[NO-IDea]

Not even gonna reply to it.





Again, what's Zelda gonna do if Dedede walks up to her and starts spamming a spaced
f tilt?

EDIT: In fact I need a good laugh, let me namebait the other Zeldas in here so they can explain why Zelda goes even against Dedede.
Riot Gotathand ZeldaMaster_1 ScaryLB59 AlanHaTe vennn JigglyZelda003 Sonic The Hedgedawg

Then it's fairly obvious what holds you back as a player. The spacing for D3's f-tilt makes it easy to predict and perfect shield. Just saying.

Try to argue otherwise. Because then I'll question how any player plays their MUs well without understanding the standard poke tools of the other character.

 

[Fuujin]

but fuuuuuuuuuujiiiiiiin.

DDD without a lead has to approach Zelda and like... what DDD knows how to fight Zelda in the first place? Totally ****ing legit.

Atomski knows its a bad MU for her.

It's true that Dedede has to approach if Zeldas in the lead and most Dededes just try to camp with waddle dees or walk up to her trying to grab her (which he actually has a hard time doing due to her b air and f smash), and I guess that's why they think its a good match up.
I dunno.

The spacing for D3's f-tilt makes it easy to predict and perfect shield.

That may be true, but what is Zelda supposed to follow up with after she powershields a spaced f tilt?

 

[NO-IDea]

I have no clue what the frame advantage is, but it's significant enough that you can at least land dash attack.

You just got D3 into the air. That's like half the battle.

I'm not saying Zelda v D3 is in Zelda's favor at all. But it's not hard to kill D3 once he's at kill percentage.

 

[Pitzer]

Can't she dash attack on ps?

D3's hit box is still out afterwards? right?

 

[Fuujin]

I have no clue what the frame advantage is, but it's significant enough that you can at least land dash attack.

You just got D3 into the air. That's like half the battle.

I'm not saying Zelda v D3 is in Zelda's favor at all. But it's not hard to kill D3 once he's at kill percentage.

Her dash attack doesn't reach far enough to counter a spaced f tilt from Dedede, even when powershielded.
By the time Zelda is able to run into the appropriate range to reach him his f tilt has ended.
I'd imagine Ganondorf would have the same problem if his dash attack didnt reache alot farther than hers.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i dont care how slow it is, if you powershield a fair, and run in to dash attack and the ddd shields, in that situation hes not going to be fast enough to avoid a grab.

the point is that if zelda powershields a f tilt, she has the advantage, and if a character like zelda has the advantage in a situation like that, and youre at kill percents, your probably going to die from SOMETHING.

one thing people still have to learn about this game and about matchups, is that just because something

we all understand that the character is really, REALLY bad, but shes not an invalid.

 

[NO-IDea]

Her dash attack doesn't reach far enough to counter a spaced f tilt from Dedede, even when powershielded.
By the time Zelda is able to run into the appropriate range to reach him his f tilt has ended.
I'd imagine Ganondorf would have the same problem if his dash attack didnt reache alot farther than hers.

I had to check up with Neo on this.

You have a ****ing 21 frame advantage on power shielding his f-tilt. You pull off almost ANYTHING. My character can shield grab that move and my grab is 14 frames.

Do your god damn research before deciding MUs boy. If you're not willing to put in work, you're not going to get better as a player.

 

[Shaya]

Well... 21 frames advantage.
7 for a shield drop.
5 (right?) for dash attack.

If zelda is really that slow on the ground then she may not be able to get there... i guess.

 

[NO-IDea]

Correction. Sorry. It's like 26 or 29. He messed up on calculating.

 

[Tesh]

Seems like as long as you have 15ish frames, you would be able to get close enough the RPS a punish at a range where Ftilt won't keep you out. Yea you have to work a little harder, but its not like DDD wreckes Zelda simply because of ftilt.

 

[Fuujin]

I had to check up with Neo on this.

You have a ****ing 21 frame advantage on power shielding his f-tilt. You pull off almost ANYTHING. My character can shield grab that move and my grab is 14 frames.

Do your god damn research before deciding MUs boy. If you're not willing to put in work, you're not going to get better as a player.

you seem upset
boy

Well... 21 frames advantage.
7 for a shield drop.
5 (right?) for dash attack.

If zelda is really that slow on the ground then she may not be able to get there... i guess.

Dash attack hitbox comes out on frame 6, but take into account the initial frames it takes to start up the dash animation as well.

if you powershield a fair, and run in to dash attack and the ddd shields, in that situation hes not going to be fast enough to avoid a grab.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Anyways I never said the move completely ***** her, she just can't really punish it easily.
It's a better choice for him than running up to her and trying to grab.
It usually ends up forcing her towards the ledge or in the air.
This is turning into another argument of what should be possible on paper, but doesn't quite work that way in a real match.

 

[Judo777]

If they are close enough to ftilt you........you can take a little step fwd during his startup frames then shield..... the DA. If he accounting for his startup on the spacing and he puts just outside his ftilt range..... he won't hit you cause ur not in his range.

And Waddle camping cannot be serious. You can probably lightning kick him for tossing waddles.

 

[Fuujin]

If they are close enough to ftilt you........you can take a little step fwd during his startup frames then shield..... the DA. If he accounting for his startup on the spacing and he puts just outside his ftilt range..... he won't hit you cause ur not in his range.

And Waddle camping cannot be serious. You can probably lightning kick him for tossing waddles.

Din's fire camping actually ends up being more effective than Waddle Dee toss.
It's like one of the two match ups where Zelda can actually out camp someone.

 

[Laem]

Wouldn't be suprised if zelda can dashgrab as well. aint she like top 3 in the grabrange department (not counting tethers)?

 

[Shaya]

zelda has one of the worst grab ranges if I recall...

top 3 non tethers is like
Dedede, Charizard, Squirtle

then marth, wario and kirby tie or something.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i wish pit had good grab range. sigh.... his grab range is garbs except on his pivot grab, but that's only good on read.... sigh.... wants grab range

 

[Ussi]

Pretty sure Zelda has the 2nd highest non-tether grab range. She has the worst grab speed taking twice as long as DDD to grab. (12 frames)

Basically she grabs as fast as a tether without the tether range

 

[infiniteV115]

Basically she grabs as fast as a tether without the tether range

I'm sure every ZSS main is laughing their *** off

 

[B.A.M.]

PS has no shield drop lag. you should be able to punish. heck maybe a DDP fsmash even from PS. Dash attack could definitely land. regular shield should still get you a DA.

@ NOID, yeah people really dont bother check frame data which kinda pisses me off. We in the smash community have an ability to easily capture appropriate frame data when juxtaposed to other fighters. Instead, we got people who dont care to figure it out as well as a Smash Labs who for some reason deem the Standard Term List more important then getting an official Universal Frame Data List done. Its just stupid.

 

[Tesh]

Honestly, all Zelda needs to do is get close enough to shieldpoke with upsmash. Its not really that hard. Though honestly, sheik could just gimp DDD and not take the risks of switching to Zelda.

 

[AlanHaTe]

I remember one match like a year ago where I PS'd many D3's Ftilts and I actually punished it with dash grab, dash attack, and that's all I did, because I wasn't actuallly testing, it was a real match...

 

[Kuro~]

i wish pit had good grab range. sigh.... his grab range is garbs except on his pivot grab, but that's only good on read.... sigh.... wants grab range

Pit has t-rex arms