Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[ShadowLink84]

maybe fox/sonic players aren't as good and the characters are MUCH better than we think they are currently... fact is they've simply done more than the characters around them (sonic anyway). The tier list is supposed to rate characters based on top level play so you'd figure top level results would be the perfect indicator of tier position/matchups.

Ha, no.
Results are indicators simply becase of the people that play he character. They may be tired, sick, nervous, mindgame, poor at adapting etc etc.
There are tons of factors, hence why results should never be considered as solid evidence.
Otherwise, Marth would be lower despite his incredibly solid MU.

It is also why i think Sonic performs better, his gameplay tends to be poor on paper, but in reality it is rather effective.

 

[Orion*]

I don't give a **** how the tier list is made, I just don't want BBR monocles like DMG and Orion sauntering into the tier list thread to tell players theorycrafting is bad and then vote marth #5 peach +2 LOL

Maybe I should clarify myself.

Relying on theorycraft is generally is bad when you have like no experience......

There are rare examples of people who quite consistently know a lot about the game, despite having know general exp. Some specialize in areas, some are much more general. Some look into the actual data, whatever there's endless ways to analyze what happens.

However the fact there is like an endless sea of them on this website tells me something is wrong, because I seriously doubt all of them can suck *** at the game, not attend anything and still know "everything".

Well maybe Orion has an excuse, getting whooped by Mr. R must be hard

If you want to play ball be ready to put money where your mouth is. I seriously doubt your fake *** would step to me like this IRL LOL

 

[Steam]

again maybe sonic players are tired, sick, nervous, but their character is just waaaay better. that argument works both ways. and yeah sonic is bad on paper because players have to make mistakes for him to work. and top level players do make mistakes as sonic has seen success at top level. The tier list/matchups are supposed to rate characters based on the current top level of play, not some threshold of perfection...

and Marth SHOULD be lower... if the top level of other characters have shown to be more successful than the top level of marth, they should be above him. if marth keeps on losing maybe his matchups aren't as good as we think they are. You can't just say top marth players are bad since matchups should represent current top level play...

 

[Conviction]

If you want to play ball be ready to put money where your mouth is. I seriously doubt your fake *** would step to me like this IRL LOL

WELL DAMN.

You really ****ing up SPF.

 

[ShadowLink84]

again maybe sonic players are tired, sick, nervous, but their character is just waaaay better. that argument works both ways. and yeah sonic is bad on paper because players have to make mistakes for him to work. and top level players do make mistakes as sonic has seen success at top level. The tier list/matchups are supposed to rate characters based on the current top level of play, not some threshold of perfection...

Are you honestly reading what you type?
Bad players are not going to do well with good characters period.
You see it with SSF2T Akuma all the time. THey lose matches to friggin Cammy and Honda.
Outside of Ivan Ooze whom you can just face roll your controller, there is nothing to ever substantiate such an argument.
It does not go both ways.

I cannot see where you are going with such a thing. You see, a character is good when they can FORCE mistakes, where their abilities can pressure, or they can perform option select such as Marth or Metaknight. Sonic? He waits for the opponent to make an error, he lacks the ability to truly force an opening, which is what hinders him as a character.

So i cannot see why you mentioned perfection at all.

and Marth SHOULD be lower... if the top level of other characters have shown to be more successful than the top level of marth, they should be above him. if marth keeps on losing maybe his matchups aren't as good as we think they are. You can't just say top marth players are bad since matchups should represent current top level play...

No.
You are trying to say that the results should be a dictation of the character's placement on the tierlist when this should NEVER be true.


@SFP: Damn. Orion just threatened to bend you over a rusty trash can and make you squeel like a piggie.
Classic case of people acting as if what they type on the board does not pertain to them IRL.

 

[Orion*]

that argument works both ways.

that's the point

edit: while i do agree w/ SL overall.
I suppose what I'm trying to relay is the fact that, you can't generally only hold results because there are an infinite amount of factors that go into it. Because of that, any argument other than the cold hard fact of the results can be turned back around generally, however who are we to know and decide? You can only look at the results, but then that's ignoring a lot of potential information. Hence why I like balance

 

[ShadowLink84]

...
So....I just finished things in South Carolina...
Any suggestions as to where i can get to a tournament?

 

[Conviction]

If you are in SC, go to either GA/AL, NC, or FL, maybe MD/VA

 

[ShadowLink84]

If you are in SC, go to either GA/AL, NC, or FL, maybe MD/VA

So...SC is useless.
*commits seppuku*

 

[Steam]

@SL- it definitely does work both ways. but you're assuming that one character is inferior... And it doesn't matter if he can't truly "force" an opening if he's still capitalizing on them and winning against some of the best players in the world. We can't rate characters as if the top level is above where it currently is. and the current top level still makes mistakes sonic can capitalize on.

also why wouldn't top level results dictate tier placement and matchups? so what if X character player is better than Y character player if as a result X character at top level is better than Y character at top level?

 

[Conviction]

Yeah out of anywhere in ATL south SC is dead. I think the only person there is a link main and he goes to our tournies. At least ESAM will be in SC soon. He is doing the smart thing though, so you might want to catch rides with him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

...
So....I just finished things in South Carolina...
Any suggestions as to where the fak i can get to a tournament?

Catch a ride with Georgia people going to NC tournaments, or vice-versa. It happens often enough.

 

[stingers]

^that, sc used to have a scene but it died about 2 years ago lol

 

[Conviction]

They had a scene?

 

[stingers]

yea, they had a legit marth named devin who kinda still plays but not really, also a ddd/mk named cory that was good, also snap if u know him came from sc but he moved to nc
and a few randoms

 

[Conviction]

Wow, I don't remember that all O.o

 

[ShadowLink84]

@SL- it definitely does work both ways. but you're assuming that one character is inferior...

Are you not presuming one character is superior as the basis of your argument?

You can't make the argument for a character being good, just because someone places high with them.
Too many factors that cannot be ignored.

And it doesn't matter if he can't truly "force" an opening if he's still capitalizing on them and winning against some of the best players in the world. We can't rate characters as if the top level is above where it currently is. and the current top level still makes mistakes sonic can capitalize on.

Okay, then in theory, Ganondorf can win a tournament provided that at top level play, the opponent makes enough mistakes.

It matters very much if the character can force an opening, because that means the character does not need to rely on the opponent making an error. It means the character can force his way through the defense of the opponent to KO/land damage.

Character's such as Sonic that rely greatly upon the opponent making an error are typically bad. They have no means to maintain an offense, so they cannot land hits when they truly need to land them.
A character such as Sonic is a little bit different because he can maintain his options at all times, and can cancel so that he can move from one option to the other within a few frames. This in itself cannot be applied very well in theory.
On the toher hand in real life, it is very much applicable because then, you have the many factors such as human error to work with at that time.

Does this mean Sonic is a great character? No.
Does it mean he is better than he appears on paper? Yes.
Is Sonic good enoughf or high tier due to amazing performances by his mains? No.
Any main can tell you including Espy.
Sonic may have some incredible results for a character of his tier, but ultimately, he is mid tier and not high tier.

also why wouldn't top level results dictate tier placement and matchups? so what if X character player is better than Y character player if as a result X character at top level is better than Y character at top level?

I dislike repeating myself Steam, and I cannot help but wonder if this is a case of
"He has provided a counter argument but this only solidifies my stance on the issue."
So, I think I am going to play some Vindictus now.

 

[B.A.M.]

SFP is a moron. Iono why anyone would listen to him and his troll posts. So dont worry Orion.

 

[Steam]

@SL- I'm assuming one character is superior because that character is winning more... and there are just as many if not more problems with going off of matchups, due the existence of bias/better or worse theorycrafters supporting a side. results are completely objective and show who is the most successful at top level, pretty useful IMO on a list that is supposed to show how good characters are at top level

and the difference between sonic and ganon is that sonic has actually won at the top level and gone through many top players. never heard of a single top player losing to any ganon ever. I'm not even talking theory I'm talking about what actually happens.

technically, every character needs the opponent to make mistakes for them to land hits. but you can throw theorycraft around all day while sonic continues to do significantly better than those around him.

 

[Orion*]

@SL- I'm assuming one character is superior because that character is winning more... and there are just as many if not more problems with going off of matchups, due the existence of bias/better or worse theorycrafters supporting a side. results are completely objective and show who is the most successful at top level, pretty useful IMO on a list that is supposed to show how good characters are at top level

and the difference between sonic and ganon is that sonic has actually won at the top level and gone through many top players. never heard of a single top player losing to any ganon ever. I'm not even talking theory I'm talking about what actually happens.

technically, every character needs the opponent to make mistakes for them to land hits. but you can throw theorycraft around all day while sonic continues to do significantly better than those around him.

ganon actually won a legit tournament actually

and false, some characters do NOT need mistakes for their opponent to land hits. at top level play you have to force them into situations that allow you to land those hits. some characters are better at this then others

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ contrary to what you believe Snake is one of the better characters

And yeah, at this point I seriously doubt that Ganon's the worst character. As stupid and contradictory as it sounds Ganon can "actually win" stuff - not necessarily whole tourneys [that's be a drastic exception] but individual match-ups like Diddy, Wario or some mid-tiers and if he faces 3 or 4 of them in his bracket he might make it to 4th round in a bigger tourney. Of course that's not to be expected but I actually think Ganon is more likely to achieve that than Jiggs, Falcon, Bowser and possibly Zelda. Not saying that it makes a Ganon better character but Ganon kind of seems to have an edge when it comes to "actually winning" [on the other hand he gets ***** so horribly by stuff that it hardly ever becomes important].

 

[Steam]

ganon actually won a legit tournament actually

At a MW local with MK banned

and if you get forced into a bad situation did you not make some sort of mistake?

 

[BSP]

IMO sonic's results don't throw him to high tier immediately, but these repeated placements make me think that the bbr/anyone really is underrating his matchups. If a character that is supposedly bad keeps placing well, that probably means we're the ones underrating their tools.

 

[Steam]

^this

I don't think he's high tier either due to lack of consistancy, but he should be several spots higher than he is. he should just switch places with peach IMO.

edit: actually peach shouldn't be that low... but sonic being under pit is just... eeek when we're not taking japanese results into account.

 

[Orion*]

and if you get forced into a bad situation did you not make some sort of mistake?

They are different things

^ contrary to what you believe Snake is one of the better characters

I have other reasons for thinking snake is bad.

Snake can force bad positions. Homie just can't approach very well and gets ***** in the air.

 

[ShadowLink84]

They are different things



I have other reasons for thinking snake is bad.

Snake can force bad positions. Homie just can't approach very well and gets ***** in the air.

Snake is a broken character though, have yo seen his grenade shenanigans where he throws a grenade the opponent is holding? It is the ultimate troll.

 

[Steam]

same thing orion, just smaller and bigger mistakes. regardless we still see top players making enough mistakes against sonic to lose

 

[BSP]

Does it mean he is better than he appears on paper? Yes.

Shadowlink said that, and it's why sonic will remain lower than he should be. The bbr clearly looks at on paper more than what's actually happening, evidenced by Martha moving to spot 5 and oli failing to budge, and pit's current MU spread. They may be right, but pits spread denotes a current high tier character, and he hasn't been performing as such. Ill change my mind if he shows up at genesis, but ATM, I don't see the basis

 

[ShadowLink84]

Does it mean he is better than he appears on paper? Yes.

Shadowlink said that, and it's why sonic will remain lower than he should be. The bbr clearly looks at on paper more than what's actually happening, evidenced by Martha moving to spot 5 and oli failing to budge, and pit's current MU spread. They may be right, but pits spread denotes a mid high tier character, and he hasn't been performing as such. Ill change my mind if he shows up at genesis, but ATM, I don't see the basis

To the first statement, no, my opinion on Sonic is not reflective of the entire BBR. speak for myself, so do not attempt to misconstrue what I have said simply so you have reason to toss mud at people.

Furthermore, Sonic moved up by two spots, so clearly your statement is flat out wrong if Sonic has continued to move up every tierlist.


As for the second, the BBR may be right but they are wrong? That statement is contradicting.
Would you argue that Snake is the second best character because of his results in spite of his MU?
Frankly you're just as bad as someone who harps about how the tierlist should be entirely shaped by the results. Which is silly.

 

[BSP]

I'll respond better when I get to a computer. I'll get back to that.

 

[Steam]

when you compare monetary winnings to usage, diddy and snake are very close results wise... That and solo diddy does better in nationals, ally uses 234 different characters. and diddy's matchups give him a secondary boost that can put him above snake.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'll respond better when I get to a computer. I'll get back to that.

I would much prefer you did not.

 

[BSP]

Ok then, well I'll just give my opinion on MU vs results. I don't think it's a vs relationship at all

MU should have the greatest priority in the list.

Where do we get these MU ratios? From the collaboration of top players and theorists.

Only problem is that we don't know if those people are 100% right yet, and that's where results come into.

If a character A Is low tier because we think A has MUs comparable to low tiers, but A starts netting results similar to mid tier characters, I would think that means we need to go back and re evaluate A's MUs and tools.

 

[Orion*]

same thing orion, just smaller and bigger mistakes.

You can play perfectly and still lose if you're character can't keep up or if you're not smart enough. There IS a difference between getting forced into a bad situation vs putting yourself into it, and the higher the level the less you can rely on your opponents mistakes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I wud say that if ur not smart enough than u aren't making the perfect decisions most likely to begin with

 

[ShadowLink84]

I wud say that if ur not smart enough than u aren't making the perfect decisions most likely to begin with

The English language, as well as those who know anything regarding playing competitively, facepalmed.

 

[Orion*]

I wud say that if ur not smart enough than u aren't making the perfect decisions most likely to begin with

I do agree with you actually I didn't even put it in my original post and the double tracked and wrote it in. However on SWF I like to cover my own *** because people tend to take one little thing and blow it way out of proportion lol.

From a theoretical standpoint it's possible. However from a Human one, it is Extremely unlikely considering we all have some form of intuition
also if your smart enough to learn everything i seriously doubt you can't be smart enough to make a few reads but whatever xD

 

[NO-IDea]

You can play perfectly and still lose if you're character can't keep up or if you're not smart enough. There IS a difference between getting forced into a bad situation vs putting yourself into it, and the higher the level the less you can rely on your opponents mistakes.

I wud say that if ur not smart enough than u aren't making the perfect decisions most likely to begin with

The English language, as well as those who know anything regarding playing competitively, facepalmed.

TBH, I would approve of Kid's post more than Orion's. At least Kid didn't get his contractions mixed up with possessive adjectives.

Spoiler

<3 Orion

 

[da K.I.D.]

Lol it was pretty bad but I got the point across. *shrug

Also, if you don't mind, my name is spelled KID with all caps. Kid is a different smasher entirely

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lol it was pretty bad but I got the point across. *shrug

Also, if you don't mind, my name is spelled KID with all caps. Kid is a different smasher entirely

I don't think anyone really cares considering its the same name just different capitalization.
At least there is a difference between Doom and Mr. Doom.