Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[M@v]

I think Fox's numerical placement is about right, but he really needed to get bumped to high tier with toon link. Regardless, he still has a couple glaring weaknesses:

-vulnerable to cgs and locks from a lot of the cast
-Mediocre approaches.

He's really light too, but I don't think thats a huge weakness, especially since his best strength is his KO power.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fox is too "meh" to go up much more.

I'll tell you who's too low; Mr. Game & Watch.

 

[Doc King]

I think game and watch is good where he is. People have been figuring out how to deal with his bair and stuff.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He has much more than bair.

Watch Vinnie vs. M2K, latest set.

 

[Kewkky]

I think Fox is too high. Pushing it for high tier? Uhh, no, I don't see this happening.

Fox's MUs look okay, but you know what? They're not that nice.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well.. when you look at Fox's MU Chart compared to, Say... Pit.
Fox is almost out of Mid Tier while Pit continues to drop due to noone proving him to be high tier (Like Japan Has him as)

We've been seeing Fox mains put in work, but Think of the results Pit would have if the Pit mains did work and weren't too busy using arrow Loops so much.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox at top of mid-tier is certainly high enough. I agree with Kewkky.

Also, Shugo's Pit arrow loops into forward smash.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fox has better results than characters with "better" match-ups, so maybe their match-ups aren't actually that good.

 

[Tesh]

Fox has better results than characters with "better" match-ups, so maybe their match-ups aren't actually that good.

exactly my point about marth being mid tier

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And exactly the opposite of my point about Jigglypuff.

She has awful results but is really good >_>

 

[Deleted member]

@SFP: So you're saying the tier list should be based purely on results?

That's just wrong...

Also, why did you bring up Fox's tier list placement here? Take it to the right thread.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

No, I'm saying results know more about how good a character is than you do.

I don't know how I can make this any clearer. It isn't that I think the tier list should go:

1. character with best results
2. character with second best results

etc.

It's more that I think a character with dramatically better or worse results than they are ranked on the tier list is not being evaluated correctly by the community. I can't fathom the people who make fun of the guys who like to talk about game theory (theorycrafters lol) in the tier list thread but then double back and claim Marth is top 5 without results to back up that claim because Marth has good "traits." Theorycrafting isn't something that belongs to pot stuffers.

I didn't bring up Fox's tier placement, someone else did. I'm just lazy with quoting. However, I don't think it's a big deal because tier list placement and match-ups are closely related any way you slice it. Marth's match-ups are either no where near as good as everyone says they are or... well, is there any other valid extrapolation?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see the point in a tier list anyway, we should just have a list which is 100% based on tournament results.

I mean, where is the logic in saying for the list: "Alright, this character is good enough to be 1st, but he has the 3rd best results, so we'll put him 2nd."? It doesn't give any useful information, nor does it make any sense to factor in both a character's performance and how good they are "supposed" to be.

 

[UltiMario]

What about weighted match-ups for tier lists?

The only downside is you have to find a way to make the weighing non-arbitrary. If you can do that, you have a more solid tier list, where it's each character is in their place because of how they can compete at top level- if they have bad top tier match-ups they're obviously going to be low, but if they more have bad match-ups in the, say, middle tiers, but have solid top tier match-ups, then they'd still be higher up due to those.

Just.... arbitrary numbers are soooo bad :/

 

[da K.I.D.]

a weighted matchup tier list, wouldnt look much different than the current tier list since it would be basically, 30% how well you do against MK, 10% vs diddy, 10 vs snake, 10% vs falco, 10% vs marth wario and olimar together, and the other 30% being the rest of the cast.

 

[Steam]

even worse because of how many of MK's matchups are... questionable to say the least.

 

[Conviction]

I think Fox is too high. Pushing it for high tier? Uhh, no, I don't see this happening.

Fox's MUs look okay, but you know what? They're not that nice.

Fox at top of mid-tier is certainly high enough. I agree with Kewkky.

Also, Shugo's Pit arrow loops into forward smash.

@SFP: So you're saying the tier list should be based purely on results?

That's just wrong...

Also, why did you bring up Fox's tier list placement here? Take it to the right thread.

Derp. Hypocrite. You always bring up Wolf and look you and Kewkky brought up Fox's Tier placement first.

 

[ShadowLink84]

So, because other mks don't place like m2k does mk is not as good as people believe him? What kind of logic is that? What do you expect from all fox mains, 1st place in everything? Those players listed place very well in hard regions, Zeton has recently even beaten tyrant and ally in tournament so your points really don't make sense.

Your counter would be better if it wasn't for the fact that metaknight still rakes in most of the cash without M2K or Ally in the equation.

Yes, its a great accomplishment Zeton beat both Tyrant and Ally.
Does this make an argument for Fox as a character? Hell, to the no.
There is someone controlling the character, and that in itself is a whole nother matchup. No one will ever play the character to the fullest possible extent because there are many habits we fall into, and many weaknesses that while we strive as hard to cover, may actually end up creating holes.

People are human.

So that is something you also have to factor in as well with the many matches and results you ring up.

So while Zeton beating Tyrant and Ally may be an indication for the character, it does not support it as actual evidence. Period. People really need to wake up from their dreams and stop having a stiffie just because an upset occurs.

Sonic for high tier plox?

Fox has better results than characters with "better" match-ups, so maybe their match-ups aren't actually that good.

Sonic for high tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Derp. Hypocrite. You always bring up Wolf and look you and Kewkky brought up Fox's Tier placement first.

I didn't bring up Wolf, and SFP brought up Fox's position without quoting the person who brought it up previously, as he already said. How is that hypocritical?

Kain already called you out on it, but quit trying to stir up unnecessary drama.

 

[Conviction]

I'm not causing drama I'm pointing that you said he brought up Fox's tier placement and then shoo'd him away after you did the same thing. I would have done the same if it was any other character. I just happened be checking this thread in like 5 days. lol

EDIT: Also does it seem like I would give a damn if Kain doesn't like how I post or what I address?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm not causing drama I'm pointing that you said he brought up Fox's tier placement and then shoo'd him away after you did the same thing. I would have done the same if it was any other character. I just happened be checking this thread in like 5 days. lol

EDIT: Also does it seem like I would give a damn if Kain doesn't like how I post or what I address?

Yes.
He is Wolf.
You are Fox.
Why wouldn't you care?

 

[Conviction]

.

K, I lost that one. LOL

 

[ShadowLink84]

.

K, I lost that one. LOL

Damn right.
Now...for everyone's entertainment.

PUPPIES!

 

[_Kain_]

I didn't even say anything LOOOOOOOOOL

I have been summoned.

DIP

 

[Conviction]

I didn't even say anything LOOOOOOOOOL

I have been summoned.

DIP

He was talking about your one post in the tier list thread. LOL

 

[_Kain_]

He was talking about your one post in the tier list thread. LOL

Don't remember calling you out. Just remember saying SFP is dumb for the way he thinks how tiers works, and basically his opinions are all ***.

Their clarified

 

[Conviction]

I rest my case.

Out.

 

[Deleted member]

Don't remember calling you out. Just remember saying SFP is dumb for the way he thinks how tiers works, and basically his opinions are all ***.

Their clarified

I rest my case.

Out.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12966996&postcount=280

Back to relevant discussion, please.

 

[Conviction]

O

Still doesn't mean your weren't wrong earlier.

Now back to relevant discussion.

 

[Steam]

Your counter would be better if it wasn't for the fact that metaknight still rakes in most of the cash without M2K or Ally in the equation.

Yes, its a great accomplishment Zeton beat both Tyrant and Ally.
Does this make an argument for Fox as a character? Hell, to the no.
There is someone controlling the character, and that in itself is a whole nother matchup. No one will ever play the character to the fullest possible extent because there are many habits we fall into, and many weaknesses that while we strive as hard to cover, may actually end up creating holes.

People are human.

So that is something you also have to factor in as well with the many matches and results you ring up.

So while Zeton beating Tyrant and Ally may be an indication for the character, it does not support it as actual evidence. Period. People really need to wake up from their dreams and stop having a stiffie just because an upset occurs.

Sonic for high tier plox?



Sonic for high tier.

maybe fox/sonic players aren't as good and the characters are MUCH better than we think they are currently... fact is they've simply done more than the characters around them (sonic anyway). The tier list is supposed to rate characters based on top level play so you'd figure top level results would be the perfect indicator of tier position/matchups.

 

[_Kain_]

Auspher stop bringing my name up in your arguements wtf. Clearly was a joke, shuda been able to tell by the end of the post.

 

[BSP]

Fox has better results than characters with "better" match-ups, so maybe their match-ups aren't actually that good.

Or the character with better results isn't as bad as we think

 

[Judo777]

When did Zeton beat Ally in tournament? Your not talking about SiiS5 are you? Cause unless I'm mistaken he only beat Ally in pools and that doesn't mean very much. People **** around in pools all the time.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I heard he only took a game off of him... not the set

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

probably on CP at that

 

[Orion*]

Don't remember calling you out. Just remember saying SFP is dumb for the way he thinks how tiers works, and basically his opinions are all ***.

Their clarified

LOLed.

Then I fell in Love


Nothing is perfect, everything is subjective and we all have opinions. If you want something extremely weighted make it yourself, nobody really cares except you because the current list isn't going to change for you, and I seriously doubt the same thing goes for the way that it is made

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't give a **** how the tier list is made, I just don't want BBR monocles like DMG and Orion sauntering into the tier list thread to tell players theorycrafting is bad and then vote marth #5 peach +2 LOL

Well maybe Orion has an excuse, getting whooped by Mr. R must be hard

There are like 2 characters left I would ever use mostly "gut feeling" about to form a tier list, Sheik for instance doesn't have any mains that travel and in other world regions Sheik does all right.

Kain you're derp, stop posting, I'm smarter than you

 

[Meru.]

BBR monocles like DMG and Orion sauntering into the tier list thread to tell players theorycrafting is bad

[Citation needed]

EDITA:

There are like 2 characters left I would ever use mostly "gut feeling" about to form a tier list, Sheik for instance doesn't have any mains that travel and in other world regions Sheik does all right.

... So does Peach. In Japan here is one good Peach main (Kie) and one decent one (White). Europe has Leon who still uses her as a secondary, followed by Reaper, followed by Yami and Siri (not hearing much about him anymore though).

Actually, as far as I know Peach does quite decent in the US as well...

BUT NOOO SHE SHOULD STILL DROP BECAUSE SHE'S OVERRATED IN SOME PEOPLE'S MINDS. PLEASE BLONDEE, GIVE UP, PINK IS THE NEW BLUE!!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well maybe Orion has an excuse, getting whooped by Mr. R must be hard

Kain you're derp, stop posting, I'm smarter than you

Above quote blatantly proves the contrary.

 

[Conviction]

Youse ****ing up really bad SFP