Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[t3h Icy]

Well if you hate the Tier List and stuff, P.O.F, maybe you should help contribute to the character discussions, rather than just whining about everything. =)

 

[Laijin]

this looks like a huge poo fight.
You guys are just throwing poo at each other.

P.O.F, while I agree with you, you really don't know how to explain your points too well. Me neither to be honest, but I at least know you have to carefully point out why you think your opponent is wrong and not bash them about it.


Anyways.
So I think the current argument is about smash not being a fighting game or like other games?
That is the dumbest argument ever.

Smash, while different, IS a fighting game. Competitive smash especially. There are tons of similarities between smash and a normal fighting game(in this case I will use Guilty Gear/Street Fighter/whatever the hell you want.).

Mind games, being able to control your opponent in a way you want them move so you may punish them.
Special techniques that take time to practice and master.
Situations which happen all the time and you different options in between them(Example: Smash has tech chasing, ledge guarding, shield pressure, etc etc. Other fighting games have block strings, mixups, wake up options, etc etc). Case in point being, every situation is unique and requires you to think on the spot. If you really look at it, smash really isn't that much different from other fighting games. I really don't know why the smash communities wants to be some sort of unique and "special" community. You may not want to admit it, but the smash community does have this smug sense of "specialness" to them.

I could go on and on about why smash is similar to other fighting games, but the point is that it is.

This rant has nothing to do about copying fighting games or whatever, I just want you all to realize that we really not that much different from other fighting games.

Edit: Ignoring the obvious differences between smash and other fighting games of course >__>

 

[Druggedfox]

Merkuri, why do we just assume the matchup chart method is "the most effective way to make a tier list."

Says who? Just because you decided it was? Because other fighting games decided? The way things logically work aren't that you assume they're right, and wait for someone to provide a counterproof. Each game is independent, and until you provide a good reason to imitate the other fighting games, there's no reason to do it. The burden of proof is on the person who wants to change what we have now.

I like being capable of thinking on my own, and I'll quote my coherent points:

"After 10 years the majority of major matchups have been explored in and out. We could just make a tier list using a matchup chart and it could be static forever. Sure, we don't have sufficient knowledge of a lot of low tier matchups, but this is all about high level play. Maybe then, we should just have a static tier list as far as the top tiers go, and over time squabble over whether zelda or mew2 should be above the other?"

That's only one of them. Point of that being: the tier list should reflect the CURRENT metagame. Sure, back in 2007 matchups were still changing, nowadays the important ones are NOT. Anyone who says matchups are changing is blinded by player skill, for the most part. If the matchups aren't changing, the tier list won't ever need an update.

With a static tier list, it won't reflect what's happening now. The tier list is a predictor of how well a character will perform in a high level tournament setting. The assumption is that, as Umbreon said, all players entering such big tournaments are playing to win, and thus pick the strategy they find optimal. A matchup chart won't reflect that falco is far more likely to do well in today's tournament settings than he would back in 2007. A matchup chart won't reflect that marth went from #1 most likely to perform well in tournament, to least likely among the top tiers.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Matchup numbers are so horrible, nearly always wrong and arbitrary.

 

[MarioMariox2]

Melee got worse when brawl came out and has since evolved into some weird oddity game where only highly skilled players compete in small sized tournaments with little new player base.

I think the amateur bracket idea and tournaments like Pound and Genesis will remedy things.

 

[Ripple]

Matchup numbers are so horrible, nearly always wrong and arbitrary.

in your opinion. numbers are usually agreed upon by most people and thus aren't "wrong" or "arbitrary"

 

[CloneHat]

If you make a tier list off of matchups, you get a tier list, outlining tournament potential.

If you just use results, you get a popularity chart.

There's nothing wrong with that, but it's a completely different thing from a tier list. If a tier list measures likeliness to win a tournament, and matchups have been said to be "fixed", then the obvious conclusion is that matchup information should make up a tier list. Whoever is winning tournaments at the moment should in no way affect any character's potential to win a tournament.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

you should mix results with match-ups and have a few small twecks in some cases.

 

[Laijin]

you should mix results with match-ups and have a few small twecks in some cases.

I'm PRETTY SURE thats what I have been arguing the entire time lol.
Pure tournament results like it is now leads to some heavy inaccuracy. Pure MUs does the same too. Right now there is no balance. Its very heavily just tournament results based which doesn't accurately represent how good each character is, just how much a couple of players are doing with each character.

 

[BunBun]

Man, I really like Fried Cheese Sticks.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

What is a tier list? It's a list of tiers. There are many different things you can represent with such a list. Given that this is a list meant represent *insert previously mentioned traits here*, it's nonsensical to complain that it doesn't represent *insert other traits*.

It's fine to want a list created via a weighted match-up chart. This would reflect how the characters perform against each other, and I indeed find this to be a more interesting thing to observe than the sort of anti-popularity contest that this list represents. However, there's nothing intrinsically bad about what this list aims to achieve and I find complaints that it doesn't represent something else misguided.

 

[DarrellD]

Its funny how m2k's marth ran through tournaments back in 07 and marth was put 2nd on the tier list because of it. No one complained about marth's placement being wrong at the time.

But now that we have Hbox and Mango winning tournaments with puff, puff's placement is now ridiculous.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

marth's unbeatable range was not possible to deal with plus azen/ken that's 3 of the best of players who basically mained marth. also marth didn't jump that much compared to puff.

 

[john!]

hey so, suppose a few luigi players start placing top 5 at national tournaments, even though luigi is still a mediocre character according to your theorycraft. where would you put him on the tier list? when would you stop thinking that you know everything about melee and look at the actual results from people that are much better than you? for some people in this thread, the answers apparently are "same spot" and "never". these people make me sad.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If Luigi started placing top 5 at National Tournaments off his current repertoire of existing moves and strategies, then yeah, I would say that he's still just a mediocre character being piloted by a really great player (or set of players). If (we'll call the player "Jorge") Jorge is beating everyone just because he's outwitting them and perfectly timing Luigi's moves through everything, avoiding situations that are disadvantageous, spacing with complete perfection, and just playing a ludicrously solid current Luigi game, yeah, I'd say he's still around mid tier. Jorge is just a machine.

It's why I don't think Mario is high tier despite Mango winning or placing top 2 in his home region. I am aware that Mango is only one person, but even if there was a second person using Mario... I would strongly suspect that Mario is still mediocre for a long time even if he had two or so good representatives.

However, if Jorge is doing things that nobody's ever seen before, and these things have a really strong impact on how Luigi interacts with other characters, then we have to consider that Luigi is better than we thought. For example... if someone figured out a way to make Luigi's recovery really good instead of garbage, then that would affect his matchups profoundly because Luigi's recovery is a huge issue vs most of the cast and a lot of characters wind up gimping him to beat him.

 

[TheManaLord]

It's like Armada with Peach. He's so precise, very smart, and implements strategies that many people don't with Peach. But still... you see Peach as a character get ****ed up sometimes. Like v SS. Or v puffs.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Armada still hasn't really convinced me that Peach can counter many of the matchup-specific issues that beleaguer her. He's demonstrated that the situations she can deal with can be handled with frightening consistency, but a lot of her limitations still really suck the air out of her at times.

But I won't bother getting into that since this is a silly topic anyway.

 

[TheManaLord]

Yeah, the list should've been posted and then it should've been locked =(

too many *******es arguing about the dumbest **** like "WTF IS A TIER LIST OMG IM *******".

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

it's not a dumb question unless no one learns

 

[datsuke]

<3 gengar tier. xD

 

[JPOBS]

marth's unbeatable range was not possible to deal with plus azen/ken that's 3 of the best of players who basically mained marth. also marth didn't jump that much compared to puff.

first thing you've said i agree with completely

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

marth sucks really his range is amazing but if he misses he gets hit and comboed to hard.

so if you can space better than marth you should win must of the first even as pichu

 

[DtJ Jungle]

What you're talking about now, ICG, is someone outplaying someone else. Marth has better tools to space attacks then pichu. However, if the Marth sucks, then the Pichu can surely outspace a Marth. You're no longer talking about traits of a character, rather, the player.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

pichu pichu misses niar because they sheild it how can they punish compared to marth's moves?

pichu can space his movement, d-tilt, jolts, airspeed, up-B, and nair. if spaced they aren't that easy to punish.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

I have no idea what your first sentence says.

I actually don't understand your post as a whole. Are you saying pichu can SPACE with those moves, or pichu can outspace Marths stuff?

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm saying both. If there is anything i know about for pichu it's how to **** marths.

 

[OverLord]

I agree with KirbyKaze.

Not that you all care.

But, yeah, whateva.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

he's smart enough to use logic I rarly disargee overall with him and I only really post to have fun with him.

 

[KirbyKaze]

ICG annoys me a lot but deep down I don't think I could live without him.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

i'm like nightmares without them i'll die from lack of sleep.

 

[Wretched]

I'm saying both. If there is anything i know about for pichu it's how to **** marths.

I agree with your comment about marths placement, but you can't "****" a marth of equal skill.
you said so many things... I just don't understand the ideas behind them. I really don't think you can **** marths. Who are this marths that you're ****** with a bad character?

Edit: lemme just uh..

marth sucks really his range is amazing but if he misses he gets hit and comboed to hard.
marth is one of the best characters in the game. The tier list is right about placing him in a genrally high vicinity. Marth is not a fast faller and he gets comboed the same, if not less, than most characters in his weight class. If marth misses he has almost no lag and amazing follow up options. He can do 2 fairs and then a dtilt, thats just one of his options... you proly can't punish him a lot.

so if you can space better than marth you should win must of the first even as pichu
Marth has so many spacing options, I don't see how this is a legitimate arguement. you're saying that basically you have to outspace the character, which is almost impossible aghainst even just a decent marth.

pichu pichu misses niar because they sheild it how can they punish compared to marth's moves?
I don't understand the question, but if you're asking how can a marth sheilding a pichu nair follow up... then i'd say he could just space well and not get in a situation where he would have to shield a nair and not be able to sheild grab.

pichu can space his movement, d-tilt, jolts, airspeed, up-B, and nair. if spaced they aren't that easy to punish.
every character has spacing options. you just listed pichu's. Pichu is bad, and you listing random attributes of pichu isn't going to help your case. most people don't agree with the list, but seriously, pichu should be at the bottom.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I argee if the pichu and marth are equal in marth marth should win. I just do very well against marths that are better than me unless I need to warm up of course. I know i took 2 stocks from sveet and salt and I wished I played m2ks soooo bad. they were both better than me at the time and it was clear it wasn't just autowin

 

[KirbyKaze]

**** ICG gettin' off.

 

[P. O. F.]

At last, some INTELLIGENT responses being made around here.

<3 kirbykaze

I love how this guy actually knows what he's talking about and acknowledges the other side and fairly evaluate things.

Clonehat: I'm on my droid so I'm too lazy to quote but your last post was epic and 100% spot on.

Tourbament results does =popularity contest. So true.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

People don't take me serious because of my pichuness and being somewhat dis-lexic.


more poeple play as link than ice climbers.

 

[Laijin]

ICG. I can't tell if your honestly trolling or if your being serious.

But either way. You're ****ing hillarious lol.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

No one can understand becaus ei'm always serious and unserious all at the same time.

i'm a pardox in some ways. I love live so.

also KK you have no idea how much

 

[Ripple]

I don't understand the MBR thinking. some characters placings they went entirely by tournament results (jiggs) but with others, they went entirely by match up ratio spread ( sheik/marth). there was not a single instance of a sheik tearing up a national except pound. while there were MULTIPLE instances of a marth getting top 3 at nationals consistantly

 

[KevinM]

Also I should point out to PoF not that it matters since he doesn't listen to logic but on average Smash gives out more money per year then any other competitive fighting game, has more tournaments per capita and more overall attendants.

So yes

it is a MAJOR fighting game, it is one of the most MAJOR fighting games.

*kevinm continues to fight the brick wall of irrelevance.*

 

[Stratocaster]

Also I should point out to PoF not that it matters since he doesn't listen to logic but on average Smash gives out more money per year then any other competitive fighting game, has more tournaments per capita and more overall attendants.

So yes

it is a MAJOR fighting game, it is one of the most MAJOR fighting games.

*kevinm continues to fight the brick wall of irrelevance.*

When you say Smash, are you saying Brawl and Melee give out more money per year... etc. ? Or just one or the other? Whats your source? I'm not doubting you or disagreeing. I'm just sincerely curious cause I never knew that.