Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[.Marik]

Oh, here's where it gets fun. Your first assumption is actually wrong. We don't need to analyze the character at all. In fact, we can make a tier list without knowing anything about the characters. At a simple level we can make observations on which characters are winning, and then make an educated guess at their performance later. The more observations we have, the more accurate those predictions will be. We have an incredible amount of information and observations to make those predictions with, so we just use the top level of play and recent data only.

In effect, the tier list assumes "how good that character is" is synonymous with tournament placement on the basis that players will play to win. When put into a competitive aspect, character A is not necessarily better than character B at all. But players feel that they have a better shot at winning with character A or the more talented players are naturally drawn towards character A more. As a result, character A naturally performs better and becomes a better character than B simply on the merit that the character is more likely to win, making that character also "better".

This is a great post.

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon-we don't need to analyze the characters at all? Where do you get your weed dude?

Didn't you just say like three posts back you have no idea what is going on in the melee back room?

Stop typing.

I can just go read the MBR when I want to, lol. You actually have no idea what's going on, and aren't likely to understand any time soon, if ever.

We don't care about the characters for what they are. We only care how well they perform when it matters.

 

[RaynEX]

We don't care about the characters for what they are. We only care how well they perform when it matters.

Aw

how will that make the characters feel?

 

[P. O. F.]

Like I said before, then how can you do that with non popular characters? You cannot assess everyone accurately at all. Using just tournaments as results is the most flawed method in the entire world.

Name me one other competitive community that solely uses tournaments and ill stop.

And you guys wonder why so many gaming communities hate smash....

 

[Spoon]

I think we all saw this change coming, but I do like where Mewtwo is now. :3

 

[KevinM]

Pof didn't you say you were leaving the community?

Most fighting game communities don't have matchups that entirely obsolete characters. We do, we deal with characters that are so bad they do not have a fighting chance in the entire game. Certain individuals will take them to amazing heights but they always have a pocket top tier and a lot of the time it comes down to the other individual not having a lot of matchup experience.

I'm sorry but until you can effectively show me one of the MAJOR fighting games besides smash having such dominate top tiers and low tiers with absolutely no shot then stop saying WAHH TOURNAMENT RESULTS ARE BAD.

Match-ups took a slight pattern in our tier list but for the most part tournament results will speak volumes on how good characters are actually performing at high level play at most tournaments.

You're taking things to literally did Mario suddenly jump up because Mang0 started ****** face with him? Nope, so why in the world do you think by saying TR influences the list = it's the only thing we ever discussed.

 

[Laijin]

Oh, here's where it gets fun. Your first assumption is actually wrong. We don't need to analyze the character at all. In fact, we can make a tier list without knowing anything about the characters. At a simple level we can make observations on which characters are winning, and then make an educated guess at their performance later. The more observations we have, the more accurate those predictions will be. We have an incredible amount of information and observations to make those predictions with, so we just use the top level of play and recent data only.

In effect, the tier list assumes "how good that character is" is synonymous with tournament placement on the basis that players will play to win. When put into a competitive aspect, character A is not necessarily better than character B at all. But players feel that they have a better shot at winning with character A or the more talented players are naturally drawn towards character A more. As a result, character A naturally performs better and becomes a better character than B simply on the merit that the character is more likely to win, making that character also "better".

And this is where I disagree with you, because this method leads to an inaccurate summary of how good a character really is. You even said it yourself in this post "Character A is not necessarily better than character B, but character A has done better in tournaments because more talented players play character A".
If you are really honestly going to make tier lists based off information like this, then instead of calling it a "tier list" then you might as well call it a "Highest placing tournament characters list" or something tier list becomes misleading then. Most people look at a tier list as a judgment of how good a character is, your statement earlier supports the fact that you are misleading them to believing that Character A is actually better than character B, even though character B has much better match ups than character A making him the better character.
Now I'm not saying that tournament results have nothing to do with the tier list, I'm just saying MUs should have more weight in the tier list because if you base it off tournament match ups, you end up with what I explained earlier. A character thats very higher up there because of 1 or 2 players doing very well, however that character's match ups are indeed obviously worst than the ones below them which once again..messes with the accuracy of how good a character actually is in the game.

 

[KevinM]

Laijen you're doing the same thing, he gave you a bare bones strawman summary and you are eating it as if thats exactly how it went.

If we honestly went by just tournament results I for one don't think Fox would be at the top of the list do you?

stop latching on to things to try and construe what he's saying.

Also start discussing the tier list not how it's made you know how it was made by now, so discuss placements at this point imo.

 

[Laijin]

Pof didn't you say you were leaving the community?

Most fighting game communities don't have matchups that entirely obsolete characters. We do, we deal with characters that are so bad they do not have a fighting chance in the entire game. Certain individuals will take them to amazing heights but they always have a pocket top tier and a lot of the time it comes down to the other individual not having a lot of matchup experience.

I'm sorry but until you can effectively show me one of the MAJOR fighting games besides smash having such dominate top tiers and low tiers with absolutely no shot then stop saying WAHH TOURNAMENT RESULTS ARE BAD.

Match-ups took a slight pattern in our tier list but for the most part tournament results will speak volumes on how good characters are actually performing at high level play at most tournaments.

You're taking things to literally did Mario suddenly jump up because Mang0 started ****** face with him? Nope, so why in the world do you think by saying TR influences the list = it's the only thing we ever discussed.

Well. First off. You are wrong. Other fighting games do have characters that don't have a fighting chance. Those characters are completely terrible(like our Pichu for example). To give specific examples...
Hakan in SF4
Roll in MvC2
Rachel in BBCS
etc etc
If you name a fighting game, most likely they have really bad characters like us. Sooo I don't really get your point there


Your second point is can he point out a game with dominate tiers? Easy. There are plenty of games.
MvC2. The difference in tiers are so great that lower tiers really don't have a chance. Magneto vs Roll. LOL.
BlazBlue CS is the same way. CS has dominate tiers where the lower tiered character doesn't win. Bang vs Rachel. LOL.

Your third point I disagree with, read my previous point.

Mario didn't suddenly jump, but Jigglypuff did. She is a very good character, yes, but tied for best character in the game? No. Not when Fox is clearly the better character. >__>

Laijen you're doing the same thing, he gave you a bare bones strawman summary and you are eating it as if thats exactly how it went.

If we honestly went by just tournament results I for one don't think Fox would be at the top of the list do you?

stop latching on to things to try and construe what he's saying.

Also start discussing the tier list not how it's made you know how it was made by now, so discuss placements at this point imo.

KEVIN M!
Grrrrrrrr.
I'm done discussing stuff lol.

 

[KevinM]

I was going to specifically mention MvC2 but i didn't feel the need to.

Rachel isn't terribad in CS.

And Hakan is awful I guess I can give you that. But do you think they theory crafted a ton about his rankings?

 

[P. O. F.]

Seriously Kevin?

Ok, so you're telling me that ganon, mario, mewtwo, jigs, and pikachu all didn't go up because of

Axe
Mango
Taj
And kage?

Because ONE person does good with them that justifies an entire communities performance and measurements in tournaments?

No, these characters that are low tier are not as bad as you say actually. People don't know how to play top level ness, know his yo yo glitches, how to sweet spot, etc.

People don't know how to space w roy, or how to do advanced stuff w mewtwo. Or combo w luigi.

This is attributed to the US mentality of "let's all just play the easy mode top tiers."

You don't play other fighting games so stop acting like you know how things work.


I will mm you in any other fighting game and **** you.

 

[Brookman]

I will mm you in any other fighting game and **** you.

you. me. Clayfighter 2. $50.00

I'm sorry but until you can effectively show me one of the MAJOR fighting games besides smash having such dominant top tiers ...

this.

 

[P. O. F.]

Third striike. Lol. Chun li and ken w bust kara throws.

Mvc2-storm, magneto, sentinel, cable, cyclops. So much more technical and stupid than the rest of the cast.






Smash is a major fighting game? You have yourself a nice day Kevin.



Clayfighter 2 Mike, really? Who plays that/ever has?

I played that game for like a day when I was a kid and stopped. Bad mr frost was legit.

 

[RaynEX]

My other tournament game is 3rd strike. Ken has no kara throw. Every character has professional representation, with most making it to top 8 at SBO at least once. (Japan's equivalent of EVO) ALL the characters in 3rd have a fighting chance. Trust me on this one.

MvC2: Really fun but imbalanced game. Magneto/Storm have multiple 10-0 match-ups. Its such a large gap that it shouldn't even be compared to Melee at all. We have nothing that even comes close to being that dumb. Also, Cyclops and Cable are specifically known for being the easiest top tiers to use. Definitely not technical.

But if we HAD to pick a fighting game that mirrors the helplessness low tiers experience in melee, it would HAVE to be MvC2. Hakan may be bad, but at least he has SOME tools. They just aren't as effective as say, Akuma's. The same can't be said for Pichu, Bowser, etc.

 

[Brookman]

Just think about how many stages we've banned (or switched to a counter pick) because of Fox McCloud.

 

[GreatRit]

Last time I checked, Gengar was overused.

HAHAHAHA.
I know wut you mean

 

[CloneHat]

Hakan may be bad, but at least he has SOME tools. They just aren't as effective as say, Akuma's. The same can't be said for Pichu, Bowser, etc.

Pichu has a lot of tools, they just aren't very good.

 

[Brookman]

You guys obviously haven't seen pichu's down tilt. **** is BROKEN.

HAHAHAHA.
I know wut you mean

HAHA, IS FUNNY, CAUSE HE MAKE A POKEMON TIER JOKE.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

pichu does have tools his nair is seriouly one of the best nairs in this game not even joking here. it's lagless and nothing beats it but being outranged but good spacing takes care of that problem, yes it does and if you disargee chances are you don't know what spacing is.

Really most of the cast have tools for about any problem powersheilding, fast enough movement, edge gaurd, at least some kind of recovery, decent damage, and etc. The only thing that stops some people from winning is movement camping otherwise I don't see many legit johns. maybe if it's someone where you'll take more damage even if you use your safe moves.

pichu's d-tilt is pretty good.

 

[Druggedfox]

Like I said before, then how can you do that with non popular characters? You cannot assess everyone accurately at all. Using just tournaments as results is the most flawed method in the entire world.

Name me one other competitive community that solely uses tournaments and ill stop.

And you guys wonder why so many gaming communities hate smash....

Wow. I already explained at least 2-3 different times why comparing melee to other fighting games doesn't work. "Name me one other competitive community that solely uses tournaments and ill stop"... why would someone answer a question that's already been answered at least twice already (by explaining why comparing is dumb).

Despite that, people named fighting games to disprove you anyway

 

[Merkuri]

Wow. I already explained at least 2-3 different times why comparing melee to other fighting games doesn't work. "Name me one other competitive community that solely uses tournaments and ill stop"... why would someone answer a question that's already been answered at least twice already (by explaining why comparing is dumb).

Despite that, people named fighting games to disprove you anyway

All fighting games are different from one another. You really can't compare MVC2 to Soul Caliber in any sensible way, and yet neither of them would do something so stupid as to use tournament results as a bases for a tier list.

Saying melee is different from fighting games is a really ****ty argument for basing the tier lsit off of tournament results.

 

[P. O. F.]

Smash is not a fighting game. Its a party game.

 

[Druggedfox]

All fighting games are different from one another. You really can't compare MVC2 to Soul Caliber in any sensible way, and yet neither of them would do something so stupid as to use tournament results as a bases for a tier list.

Saying melee is different from fighting games is a really ****ty argument for basing the tier lsit off of tournament results.

Instead of just saying I'm making a ****ty argument, why not address the so called "****ty" parts of it. This is why smashboards posters can't be taken seriously so often: people say things and don't even provide a valid argument.

The way MVC2 is different than Soul Calibur is nothing even remotely similar to how melee is different than either of those. That was the gist of your entire argument, and it only took one sentence to show how little sense it made.

POF, are you just a troll?

 

[CloneHat]

He says "I quit competitive smash" in his signature.

I think he just likes the attention.

 

[P. O. F.]

Yeah, mostly. This community is a joke and has no idea how to formulate information to make a valid tier list.

This tier list is nothing but information bundled from tournaments. If you're satisfied with this list and believe it to be accurate, you're a moron.

I hope someone starts playing game and watch and starts getting top 10 at every major.

He's the next anti fox who will go up 10 spots. Lol.

 

[Merkuri]

Instead of just saying I'm making a ****ty argument, why not address the so called "****ty" parts of it. This is why smashboards posters can't be taken seriously so often: people say things and don't even provide a valid argument.

The way MVC2 is different than Soul Calibur is nothing even remotely similar to how melee is different than either of those. That was the gist of your entire argument, and it only took one sentence to show how little sense it made.

POF, are you just a troll?

Your argument consisted of a single relevant point and I explained why it was ****ty. The reason smashboards posters can't be taken seriously is because they make a single invalid point and they announce that they win the argument, it's dumb.

It doesn't matter if Melee is more different from any given fighting game. The point is too many fighting games to count differ radically enough that they can't be compared in any sensible way, just like Smash to other fighting games. You still haven't made a coherent point as to why smash being a bit more different than other fighting games(which in itself is arguable) makes doing something as dumb as basing a tier list on tournament results valid.

 

[JPOBS]

even if we accept that the new list is based on tourny results, 2 questions remain.

1. why is there a tie in top 3?
2. why is peach still so low?

 

[Rappster]

everybody, relax.

a tier list isn't that important.

it is ONLY really useful for one thing: showing ppl who are new to the community a general map of what the metagame looks like.
It doesn't matter who's the best/ok/worst. as long as you pay attention to the metagame and individual matchups, whatever character(s) you choose will be fine.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Yeah, mostly. This community is a joke and has no idea how to formulate information to make a valid tier list.

This tier list is nothing but information bundled from tournaments. If you're satisfied with this list and believe it to be accurate, you're a moron.

I hope someone starts playing game and watch and starts getting top 10 at every major.

He's the next anti fox who will go up 10 spots. Lol.

if some1 constantly got top 10 with g&w you wouldnt even question it? i mean not 10 spots but still, that's tournament viable.

 

[Siglemic]

god the mbr is dumb. not the people in the mbr, but the idea of having an mbr

 

[P. O. F.]

god the mbr is dumb. not the people in the mbr, but the idea of having an mbr

Love you. No homo.

trahhsteezy-I think that GAW is somewhat tournament viable. Hes incredible at gimping people and can go amazingly low due to his awesome vertical recovery. Not to mention that his hitboxes on nearly all of his moves are outstanding. Hes basically an all out offensive character because he can't ever shield.

If you kill Yoshis story, learn how/when to sweet spot w him on every stage, DI well, and learn your match ups I think hes a decent character.

You just can't **** up your gimps....ever.



In the grand scheme of things most of these characters in this game IMO are viable. People just don't want to take the time to learn these characters and have not wanted to for centuries. Like after watching DJ Nintendos Bowser, Skler and HDLS Link, taj's mewtwo, etc. I honestly believe there are more to these characters than we think.

I'm not saying they are awesome but I am saying there is definitely lots to explore/learn with them.

 

[Merkuri]

^ I don't think the concept of the MBR is a bad idea, I just think the execution is poorly done. It should consist of the best, all the best and only the best players in the community. Also the need to kick people out of the mbr who are either no longer active in the community or no longer active on Smashboards.

This tier list is the worst yet because it wasn't created nor approved by an organized mbr. Additionally the mbr has just gotten lazy recently.

 

[Druggedfox]

Your argument consisted of a single relevant point and I explained why it was ****ty. The reason smashboards posters can't be taken seriously is because they make a single invalid point and they announce that they win the argument, it's dumb.

It doesn't matter if Melee is more different from any given fighting game. The point is too many fighting games to count differ radically enough that they can't be compared in any sensible way, just like Smash to other fighting games. You still haven't made a coherent point as to why smash being a bit more different than other fighting games(which in itself is arguable) makes doing something as dumb as basing a tier list on tournament results valid.

I believe I made at least 3 paragraphs of coherent points, which most people seemed capable of reading. To say I haven't made a coherent point is laughable.

Even IF it was true that melee wasn't as different as I say it is... I don't see the logic in just copying other games.

Merkuri, if 10 people do something stupid (like murder innocent people who contribute to society) and tell you that you should do it too, I have a sneaking suspicion that you would do it. I wonder why...

Bandwagon argument is one of the most obvious/basic fallacies to watch out for in all debating. I was past the bandwagon argument at most by the time I was 4.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html

 

[ChivalRuse]

IC's are better than Falcon, discuss.

I support Falcon being = to ICs on the tier list.

 

[P. O. F.]

This community used to be awesome.

Then, came brawl and people started to change. No offense and not to bring up another topic but brawl really ****ed us.

 

[Merkuri]

I believe I made at least 3 paragraphs of coherent points, which most people seemed capable of reading. To say I haven't made a coherent point is laughable.

Even IF it was true that melee wasn't as different as I say it is... I don't see the logic in just copying other games.

Merkuri, if 10 people do something stupid (like murder innocent people who contribute to society) and tell you that you should do it too, I have a sneaking suspicion that you would do it. I wonder why...

Bandwagon argument is one of the most obvious/basic fallacies to watch out for in all debating. I was past the bandwagon argument at most by the time I was 4.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/bandwagn.html

I went back a few pages and I didn't see a coherent point, if you've made a coherent point as to why the standardized tier list can't apply to melee then feel free to link me to it.

It's not about copying fighting games. A tier list based on match ups is simply what works for fighting games, if you want deviate from the standard then you would need to come up with a sensible reason for doing so, something I am convinced you still haven't done.

Your analogy is ********, a suitable analogy would be: 10 other societies have killing people being illegal as part of the law, so why don't we making killing people illegal in this society as well? If there is a reason why we should allow killing people to be legal then state one.

The bandwagon fallacy doesn't apply here. We are talking about the most effective way to make a tier list, it almost seems as if you're implying that because other fighting games use the tier list it would be erroneous for us to continue their example. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not that stupid.

 

[TheGoat]

This community used to be awesome.

Then, came brawl and people started to change. No offense and not to bring up another topic but brawl really ****ed us.

Really? How did brawl change the melee community?
Just curious.

 

[TheManaLord]

Melee got worse when brawl came out and has since evolved into some weird oddity game where only highly skilled players compete in small sized tournaments with little new player base.

 

[Merkuri]

^ That happens a lot when the squeal to a game is more popular. SF 3 strike is going through the same thing now.

 

[Blistering Speed]

...Yeah this is pretty much exactly what I expected.

For the record, character ties are still a cop out.