Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[BigWenz]

i'd own your ***, just as a sidenote

just look @ mew2king, he used to change his opinion every week and never even tries to discuss
or take mango who is just trolling
or Scar, pretty much the same as m2k

knowlegde =/= skill

although to be fair to scar he was right about jigglypuff (in the fact that she is not equal with captain falcon) and alot of the people who bashed him for it now are agreeing with him

 

[Druggedfox]

Being in the MBR is definitely about your ability to intelligently discuss things... though it's not like the MBR is filled with bad players... LOL Far from it, a lot of the best players are in the MBR. On a side note... has the tier list ever been based on anything besides tournament results? I think a matchup chart should be the foundation for any tier list, but I can't remember a time that the tier list was based on anything besides tourney results... I don't see why people are acting like this is something new.

@GustavWind

Yes I agree entirely. It's about picking the ideal strategy for them. The assumption is that, overall, the best characters will show up more often because they are more likely to present the ideal strategy for any arbitrary player. Even if your natural abilities mesh better with the style DK should play, chances are that there's a higher tiered character you can perform better with, and thus should pick them when entering big tournaments.

 

[SmasherLink]

Hey, why ain't I in the Melee backroom.

 

[.Marik]

Hey, why ain't I in the Melee backroom.

Probably because you have a very obvious and cliched trolling style.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

troll me a bed time story this time not the same one where link combos and bans the only good charcters.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If we're doing this by tournament results then Fox is clearly outclassed by Puff.

We did this with Marth in 2007 and he got bumped to like 2nd. It's time Puff rose. She'll drop whenever Hungrybox quits. Until then we have to put her up there like we did with characters before her.

 

[musashi]

javi will r@pe hbox and will clear up this fox vs jiggs thing

 

[Yung Mei]

So Smashboards, fix it or I will shut this website down Permanently.

do it ******

 

[Winston]

Yes I agree entirely. It's about picking the ideal strategy for them. The assumption is that, overall, the best characters will show up more often because they are more likely to present the ideal strategy for any arbitrary player. Even if your natural abilities mesh better with the style DK should play, chances are that there's a higher tiered character you can perform better with, and thus should pick them when entering big tournaments.

It's an assumption that doesn't work very well, since the population of "high/top level smashers" is tiny.

 

[Rappster]

It's an assumption that doesn't work very well, since the population of "high/top level smashers" is tiny.

what is the high/top level smashers?
top 64 at a national?
top 48?
top 32?

edit: alas, i have double posted. o merciful and gracious mods, punish me not for this transgression i pray.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yes I agree entirely. It's about picking the ideal strategy for them. The assumption is that, overall, the best characters will show up more often because they are more likely to present the ideal strategy for any arbitrary player. Even if your natural abilities mesh better with the style DK should play, chances are that there's a higher tiered character you can perform better with, and thus should pick them when entering big tournaments.

I like this point. I feel like most low tier users could switch to a better character that plays similarly and have better tournament results (i.e., switch from Kirby to Jiggs, from Yoshi to Peach, from Pikachu to Fox, etc.).

 

[BigWenz]

Hey, why ain't I in the Melee backroom.

how this guy not been banned by mods yet for trolling and ****ty trolling at that is beyond me

 

[KAOSTAR]

I like this point. I feel like most low tier users could switch to a better character that plays similarly and have better tournament results (i.e., switch from Kirby to Jiggs, from Yoshi to Peach, from Pikachu to Fox, etc.).

Its possible but I dont necessarily agree. its mainly about that balance between a players style/strengths and the characters abilities. Just because jiggz is better doesnt mean she will mesh with the player as well.

Mewtwo and young link for instance, have strengths that no other character in the game has. If your particular playstyle can maximize those assets its likely u canl do better with the abilities of your low tier.

its all about that synergy son. Its just alot harder to find an amazing player, who also meshes with a low tier. high tiers just have that much more potential. Most ppl wont give low tiers a shot or if they do, they arent a top tier player.

 

[P. O. F.]

Also I should point out to PoF not that it matters since he doesn't listen to logic but on average Smash gives out more money per year then any other competitive fighting game, has more tournaments per capita and more overall attendants.

it is a MAJOR fighting game...

*kevinm continues to fight the brick wall of irrelevance.*

When you come off your high horse, let me know.

Ever since I met you you've had this egotistical attitude about you that makes you think you're so much cooler than everyone. You're not. I used to think you were a cool/funny kid but then I realized you're just a tool. No one thinks you're good at smash and your full of yourself.

I don't listen to reason/logic? I'm not one of the people sitting at the other end of the computer dismissing the argument that if we solely use tournies to make a tier list the other characters are not weighed properly. So if random people got amazing with Doc and won a few tournaments he would move up? Ok, that sounds legit. God, this community is dumb.

Did you ever stop and think that because so many other gaming communities do match up charts they JUST MIGHT be RIGHT and WE are wrong with our just tournament results? LOL.


Smash is not a fighting game.

-ringouts
-LIVES
-No distinction between safe/unsafe moves
-No TRUE punishes. It's all gimmicks and tricks.
-No Combos. (Theoretically; everything can be Smash DId. teched if timed properly, or avoided.)

This game relies on stupid tricks and gimmicks that each character does and holds no true punishes for mistakes. It's all "Well, this person did this so if i grab them and they DI this way I can punish them. If not, i just have to keep tech chasing and do some random grab bullcrap to kill them!"

Honestly, what COMBOS does FOX have? Nothing. He just runs around and does stupid tricks and kills you. What does Jigs do to combo you? u tilt/uair to rest? (all DIable) bairs you didnt react to and DI out of? Its dumb. What about Falco? Pretty sure you can ledge tech spikes, tech dairs, smash di shines, tech differently to avoid an fsmash bait, etc. This game holds no true punishers and that hurts it as a competitive game.

Tech chasing/half of Falcons so called "combos" are not combos. The attack strings end.

It pays more than other fighting games? You do realize this game is made by NINTENDO and the company alone (more so than the game itself) is a big reason why its so popular and its filled with random scrubs at EVERY single Brawl tournament ever.




Melee is a dying game. its the same group of kids who have been playing since 2006 or somewhere near that and it will fade and that crappy Brawl game will reign supreme whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Just like MVC3 will destroy the beloved MVC2 and SSF4 will destroy the Third Strike scene. Saying Melee is still great is like saying Melty Blood and Guilty Gear Accent Core are still strong. You're in denial.








Oh, and you can ban me. This community is ******** anyway.

 

[Spelt]

that crappy brawl game will not outlive melee.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Fun fact: the term "fighting game" is not well-defined. Any argument about whether smash is or isn't one is useless unless all involved parties agree on a definition, which they evidently don't.

Regarding what the "right" way to construct a tier list, I refer to my previous post in this thread.

What is a tier list? It's a list of tiers. There are many different things you can represent with such a list. Given that this is a list meant represent *insert previously mentioned traits here*, it's nonsensical to complain that it doesn't represent *insert other traits*.

It's fine to want a list created via a weighted match-up chart. This would reflect how the characters perform against each other, and I indeed find this to be a more interesting thing to observe than the sort of anti-popularity contest that this list represents. However, there's nothing intrinsically bad about what this list aims to achieve and I find complaints that it doesn't represent something else misguided.

 

[N64]

pof where did that even come from. It's like if you told your grandpa records aren't cool anymore and then he just comes back at you with this long rant that turns into how everything's changed since the good old days.

List was made with primarily tournament performance in mind, and matchup reasoning secondarily. It's probably different than most fighting communities. I don't see how that's inherently wrong. Matchup theorycraft gives some insight to how characters SHOULD (to our best knowledge) do in tourney, and tournament results show how they DO do (given that there are obviously other variables affecting this, most notably the skill/experience of the character's players), and both give relevant data i believe on how good a character is.

That aside, I overall agree with this list. I think y.link could be higher (i think he does well against jiggs and peach, two notable chars, and has a projectile camping game that hasn't been abused as much as it could) and jiggs could be a step down (third out of the tie), but otherwise looks fine.

 

[KAOSTAR]

POF is such a tool lol.

I personally like that you "can" escape combos with another skill.

if you want to leave this community then stop posting, its less to read for those of its who do want to be a part of this community.

if smash isn't a fighting game then why are you pushing to follow formats used by other fighting game communities?

I happen to think smash is a fighting game but its clearly different than any other fighter. its pretty complex. MUs have alot of other factors than just x vs y character.

why don't you come up with a tier list? make sure to provide reasonings and cite all your sources. make sure its accurate and you should base it off the compete metà game of ssbm and not just the current one.

and up throw up air is in fact a combo. alot of characters can combo off grab alone. some moves probably still combo with perfect di. I think its only fair that if you take into account perfect di you assume perfect reaction and full knowledge of characters combo games.

just wondering, games with combo breakers, interrupts, or bursts and reversals count as having combos? like since you can burst out in gg can't you say most of those aren't combo's. any time you used an auto linker in killer instinct you could combo break. although the budokai and naruto games aren't that competitive or suck lol, they are still fighting games. do they not have combos because you can teleport out?

I think they do count as combos. they just may not be guaranteed. smash has a limitation of very precise button requirements and a small window where other games may have a level of energy needed to escape combos.

now in terms of punishment. melee is like any other game. samus d smashes your shield. so easy to wd oos for a grab, or smash attack. you can get punished for improper spacing, and it happens all the time.

writing this I actually began to understand what brawl players mean when they say brawl is a comp fighter its just different. lol I still think it sucks but thats neither here nor there.

just grow up dude. melee or the followers of it are far from perfect. if you don't like it as is then positively work to change it or GTFO. nobody will shed a tear if you stop posting. you should be mature enough to stop on your own instead of making yourself look like an ******* until they ban you.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Alot of flames coming outta here. I'm actually a bit bummed I missed it. I agree with this tier list except I do feel Fox, Falco, puff should be 1, 2, 3 respectively.

Puff is top tier based on actual results, but from what we know about fox and falco their abilities actually exceed that of human players. We arent even close to pushing those limits. In actually it, the better players get at controlling their characters the better fox and falco will become. There is no question they are the best two and since we know that we should represent that in our tier list.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

tricks? that can be avoided and can't if fox up-throws you you're going to get comboed into upair which could in fact be the 2nd hit only if they timed it and no matter how hard to try to sdi the 2nd hit you'll get hit by the 2nd one.

 

[Jonas]

-ringouts

Soul Calibur has ring-outs.

-LIVES

Lol you can play 1 stock if you want to.

-No distinction between safe/unsafe moves

If I just throw out a random Fsmash with no regard to my opponents positioning, isn't that pretty unsafe? And no, Smash doesn't have any "safe" moves that will just work every time or not put you in a bad position if you don't think about how you use it, but last time I checked, Street Fighter doesn't have that either.

-No TRUE punishes. It's all gimmicks and tricks.

I don't know what you're saying. If you mess up in Smash, you're going to get punished just as hard as in other fighting games.

-No Combos. (Theoretically; everything can be Smash DId. teched if timed properly, or avoided.)

Yes, Smash has combos, or consecutive hits. The difference between Smash and other fighting games is that you can't just blindly dial a combo once your poke hits. You have to pay attention to what your opponent does, but you can still score consecutive hits.

 

[TheGoat]

-No distinction between safe/unsafe moves
-No TRUE punishes. It's all gimmicks and tricks.
-No Combos. (Theoretically; everything can be Smash DId. teched if timed properly, or avoided.)

You just lost what little credibility you already had right there.

 

[Fernandez]

I agree with Jonas, and those reasons are what makes smash way better then Sf, Tekken and those other 'competetive' fighters, everything is so determined in advance in those games.
Melee is like pure free style lol

 

[Jonas]

That's not really what I'm saying. I'm just saying that Smash is just as much a fighting game as SF/Tekken/GG/MB/KoF and so on. Smash may or may not be better, but that's not my point.

 

[Sox]

POF i've come to realize that you're just not a smart individual. Please get off smashboards and go play your fighting games.

 

[Ace55]

POF i've come to realize that you're just not a smart individual. Please get off smashboards and go play your fighting games.

Word, my IQ is dropping just from reading his ****.

'You guys need to be like other fighting game communities' followed by 'melee isn't a fighting game'

I totally agree with Fernandez that the melee combos are a huge plus compared to pressing xxyab for a guaranteed string. I reckon almost all smashers feel that way though.

 

[Merkuri]

that crappy brawl game will not outlive melee.

I disagree. You can wish all you want but this claim is extremely unlikely.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Anyone who thinks Melee doesn't have true combos doesn't play melee.

<_<

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ya'll just got POF'd.

Smooth Criminal

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

i'm sure by the end of this argument pof will be claiming to troll to avoid looking bad at all anyways

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Smooth Criminal

I love your posts, i always here the music

badumbadum badumbadum bum bum badum bum bum badum bumbum bum bum bum

 

[MajorMoses]

I'm slightly bothered that Zelda and Mewtwo are higher than Young Link... And I wish Link was still at the top of low tier. And Gengar should be higher than Kirby. Kirbicides are nothing compared to Gengicides.

 

[Merkuri]

^ The last part of your post wasn't funny. You should have just excluded it, it's annoying and it just helps to take the thread off topic.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I thought it was pretty funny.

 

[Stevo]

Gengar is a glitch character as per the "Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List" and is therefore on topic.

 

[S0FT]

I just started reading this thread today I got to around page 41 so I dont know if the discussion has shifted but...

We are NEVER going to have a tier list that everyone likes when no one can agree on the best character. I think this is good for any game though. When you have five or six characters that can all be argued as the best, matches primarily focus on intelligent play and not so highly on character matchups, which is a main reason I like this game.

As far as THIS tier list goes, jigglypuff should be number one (not my personal opinion).

The tier list claims to be primarily based on tournament results. When was the last major tournament of this year not won by a jigglypuff?
Using the argument jigglypuff is easy to beat and no one knows how to play her, once again has no grounds in this tier list discussion if it is based primarily on tournament results.

I would like to see a recent melee matchup sheet more then a tier list. I don't really care about tier list's, they are like the wind if the wind was useless.

 

[Merkuri]

As far as THIS tier list goes, jigglypuff should be number one (not my personal opinion).

The tier list claims to be primarily based on tournament results. When was the last major tournament of this year not won by a jigglypuff?
Using the argument jigglypuff is easy to beat and no one knows how to play her, once again has no grounds in this tier list discussion if it is based primarily on tournament results.

Good point.

Also if this is based on tournament results then it's laughable that Fox is tied for first. When has a fox won a national tournament? You almost never see more than one fox main in the top 5 for a national tourney.

 

[Jonas]

^ The last part of your post wasn't funny. You should have just excluded it, it's annoying and it just helps to take the thread off topic.

Take it easy Captain Serious.

 

[Deleted member]

LOL I was looking for a debate and i got 4 pages of flaming @ pof. hilarious.

@ soft: yeah basically everything you said.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Good point.

Also if this is based on tournament results then it's laughable that Fox is tied for first. When has a fox won a national tournament? You almost never see more than one fox main in the top 5 for a national tourney.

tournament doesn't only include nationals. or else zelda and yl don't exists.

fox players place very high at locals and regionals. it just happens to be there is 1 peach, two puffs and a m2k who are better than everyone.