Official 2010-2011 Super Smash Bros. Melee MBR Tier List

[Laijin]

It's mostly only been argued by two really annoying Y.Link players who cant get over the fact that their character basically doesnt exist. You should be thankful we took match ups into consideration at all considering without it Y.Link would also be in negligible tier.



Also, let it be known that there are things about this list i completely dont agree with, but I understand that in order to argue against them i need actual information. You two can moan all you want about how Y.Links match ups are somehow better than characters who are actually winning but you should probably first realize that actually winning is far better proof that a character CAN win than playing the theory game.

So when did I ever support YL's position on the tier list in this argument?
Never?
Cool. Thats what I thought. Pay attention guy.
I thought I we were arguing about the tier list overall not just one character's position.

So the reasoning here is the MUs are all about theory and tournament results are pure fact.
Not true.
Its true that TRs are fact, however its not true that MUs are all about theory. If this was true, then I'm pretty sure anyone that ever debates about anything in a match up could be called out on bull**** even though its widely accepted to be fact.
For example, your saying something like "Fox can outcamp Peach without any problems at all, therefore Fox has the advantage in the match up" is pure theory? I'm sorry, but I don't mean to sound offensive, but if you honestly think something that has been proven to be effective in a match up time and time again is pure theory when doing an MU analysis, then you are pretty dumb.
Thats just one example, but MUs are not based on mostly theory. When talking about a match up, there are hard facts. People usually don't just say random **** to support whatever character their talking about without some facts

/endrant.

My point is. You are wrong(and so is Umbreon) and I want you to realize this.

 

[Rubyiris]

ssb tiers are always stupid.

 

[rhan]

I'm not just bad about Young Link's placement. His was just the one that stood out and was more of a shock. You sound like you're butthurt because we're fighting against this for the right reason. To actually make sense of the tier list have a legit representation of how each character is. Not just saying "Oh man Jiggs has been winning all the tourneys... She must be broken." That is not true. People just don't know how to play against the character.

Jiggs is NOT third best in this game. People just suck *** against Mango and HBox. Sheik and Marth have been underrated harshly since people like Amsah and M2K lost to Mango and HBox.

Using match-ups to produce a tier list isn't a theory. If this community actually put more effort into working on the match-up thread and getting every match-ups down to the last detail then that's solid facts to go by for putting together a tier list. But making a seasonal list is plain ********. It's pretty much going to be a list of which characters have won these tourneys in the last year. And even then it's not the character. That's the player.





****ing hopeless community.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you meant to link us to this thread, right?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=287187

yes thank you. copypasta failure! fixed link.

 

[V3ctorMan]

@Laijin or Rhan - I might start playing some Young Link sometime... (not sure if I actually will or not).. got stuff to do w/Yoshi and stuff...but Young Link is very fun.. and I think I might wanna develop one soon.. ^^

Mind giving me a few pointers sometime? =p

 

[TheGoat]

I'm not just bad about Young Link's placement. His was just the one that stood out and was more of a shock. You sound like you're butthurt because we're fighting against this for the right reason. To actually make sense of the tier list have a legit representation of how each character is. Not just saying "Oh man Jiggs has been winning all the tourneys... She must be broken." That is not true. People just don't know how to play against the character.

Jiggs is NOT third best in this game. People just suck *** against Mango and HBox.Sheik and Marth have been underrated harshly since people like Amsah and M2K lost to Mango and HBox.

Using match-ups to produce a tier list isn't a theory. If this community actually put more effort into working on the match-up thread and getting every match-ups down to the last detail then that's solid facts to go by for putting together a tier list. But making a seasonal list is plain ********. It's pretty much going to be a list of which characters have won these tourneys in the last year. And even then it's not the character. That's the player.

****ing hopeless community.

I agree on the tourney thing, because this way it just represents how people are playing the characters recently. The problem with matchups though, is that they are largely theoretical.

You can say things like, "falco is able to camp ganon and therefore has an advantage over him", and tilt the matchup in falco's favor, and that is a fact. But that's not how matchups always work. There is so much more complexity to matches than that, it's not always so clear cut. For example, fox vs falco. One can go on hours debating this matchup, but you can't assign numerical values to each advantage. For gray areas such as this, it's impossible to be know whether the matchup is going to be 50:50 or 45:55 or 60:40 or whatever. Therefore, a list based off of matchups is going to be inaccurate.
And again, it's mostly theory because in actual practice, the characters aren't going to do everything as assumed. You can say, for example, that fox has the advantage against falco because you calculated it in the matchup, but if you don't look at tournament results for reference, it's just stupid.
I'm not saying a tier list based off of tourny results is perfect either. They both have their problems.

 

[KAOSTAR]

if jiggz isn't 3rd who is? MUs and theory are important no doubt. but so are actual results. I would laugh until I pissed on any theory that completely ignored results.

the way I see it is, if our community as a whole doesn't know how to beat puff it means:

A: puffs metà game is somehow farther along resulting in puff being better, currently.

B: puff is more likely to win because nobody knows how to beat her. I think its fair to move her up to show that she will do better in tournament since only 1 side apparently knows the MU.

although at this point I will say that it is possible for Hbox to be an outlier along with mango. he may just be that *****. that means them both maining puff is a coincidence. two questions stem from this unknown. do you accept puff is too good, or hbox/mango are too good?

I can see them both being plausible. you can't really choose both, and without EVIDENCE neither side can expect change. anyone *****ing about puff's placement can't do any more than agree to disagree with the mbr. unless you can prove puff isn't this dam good.(you better hope juan enters the next national as falco and mango enters as scorp)

I will point out that people are making alot of excuses. first mango became too good, which is actually true. hbox was considered the top of puff's metà game. he was constantly used as reference in the MU thread. soon as he started getting off, now ppl say he is just too good. I think puff is one of the gayest characters in melee. I guess the two best players picked her as a plot to **** up the new tier list.

 

[rhan]

@Laijin or Rhan - I might start playing some Young Link sometime... (not sure if I actually will or not).. got stuff to do w/Yoshi and stuff...but Young Link is very fun.. and I think I might wanna develop one soon.. ^^

Mind giving me a few pointers sometime? =p

I'll try. I'm terribad. lol

I'm willing to help anyone willing to learn.


@ Kao/Goat

I haven't fully read ya'lls posts but I read up to the point where you guys thought that I said MU's should be the sole representation of the tier list. I didn't say that but I think I should be a little more clear.

This tier list ****ing sucks more diq then a minimum wage prostitute. Tourney representation shouldn't count as greatly as it did for this "tier list". Match-ups are (and what should) produce a legit list.

Underline/Bold.

I said that it shouldn't have effected it as greatly as it did. Yeah results are important to putting together some of the list. But not ALL of the list. The results should have been used as a reference. Results should have counted for about 20% - 30%. And the rest should have been match-ups.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I wasn't referencing you specifically.

fox is on top. can't be all tourney.. thats mostly theory and **** MUs. but foxes still exist in tourney tho lol. its not just 1 or the other.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Underline/Bold.

I said that it shouldn't have effected it as greatly as it did. Yeah results are important to putting together some of the list. But not ALL of the list. The results should have been used as a reference. Results should have counted for about 20% - 30%. And the rest should have been match-ups.

how do you determine matchups with out the best players playing the characters as best they can in a meaningful envioronment with money on the line?

 

[rhan]

You... quoted my post yet didn't comprehend it...

I stated that results should count. But not for more then 20 - 30% of the compiled list. People come/go/change. Match-up (if they are fully discussed to the smallest detail) don't change and is a strong reference to fall back on.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You still didnt answer my question.

how do you determine matchups

(if they are fully discussed to the smallest detail)

with out the best players playing the characters as best they can in a meaningful envioronment with money on the line?

 

[rhan]

Not many well known players play certain characters in tourney because of they're inconsistency on actually being good. So using a tourney setting as an example isn't good for the lower part of the list. But it is better for evaluating the upper part of the list.

The lower half is completely ignored and ill placed. Because these people haven't played them enough or represented in tourney to actually have it known. But the actually players that play these characters are shut down whenever they try to make a notion.

Little off topic rant.

tl;drbialft.

Tourney is only good for composing the upper half of the tier list. And you only get the top level play in those specific character match-ups.

Also players come and go.

 

[N64]

matchups indeed do not change, but our understanding of them certainly do over time. I can write literally pages and pages on pika vs. sheik and there will be things i don't explain or simply don't know about yet, even though i've played the matchup almost constantly for the past 8+ years.

Matchup theorycraft is useful for predicting how characters should do, tourney results are useful for showing how they do do.

I know we are now arguing about how much influence each should have on a tier list, and I'm still not really convinced tourney results shouldn't have a higher influence on such a list. Assuming people play to win and those most skilled with their chars progress the furthest in tournament, it's safe to assume that they will produce evidence of how matchups actually go, whereas theorycraft suggests how we think they will go. Match results of course are also affected by player experience, habits, playing ability that day, etc. of course, so matchup theorycraft is useful for patching in some "he's playing this matchup all wrong, is clearly drunk, and rather frustrated" etc. stuff, but with the previous assumptions i see no issue in putting tournament results first.

And everyone touting that other fighting games solely use matchup charts for their tierlist, you do understand that tourney results go into assisting with the creation of those matchup numbers correct?

edit: i do agree with most of your most recent post though rhan (made while i typed this). Tourney results don't show low tier representation as well, as almost half the cast gets little to no placing in notable tournaments (or at least have very few representatives for a quantitative assessment). Puting greater weight on matchup data as you go lower on the tierlist sounds fine to me.

 

[Mahone]

I agree that puff isn't tied for first, but i like the fact that she is put there, because hopefully it will stimulate discussion on how to beat her and people will dedicate more time to beat her. Then they will realize she isn't that good and its just Hbox and she can naturally go down the tier list. I hope that's what happens.

 

[Luma]

lol @ matchups dont change xD

 

[Sox]

For the MBR's next project they should come out with a comprehensive, updated matchup chart. I feel like that would be something that a lot of people want. I also think that people throw out arbitrary numbers to say who does what isn't effective in the least. I'm not sure what MBR members do when you're not constructing a tier list, but i'm saying that it's something to consider

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

everyone it's a jigglypuff gets bats and beat it to a pulp.


Really rhan I fail to understand you at all. I once came into a thread saying YL could win a tournment and you disargeed to the fullest saying it was impossible but zedla is closer to winning tournments than YL.

YL has little to no rep. Your arguement is more fruitless than mine about pichu that i've been argueing for years.

 

[rhan]

For the MBR's next project they should come out with a comprehensive, updated matchup chart. I feel like that would be something that a lot of people want. I also think that people throw out arbitrary numbers to say who does what isn't effective in the least. I'm not sure what MBR members do when you're not constructing a tier list, but i'm saying that it's something to consider

The MBR should stay out of stuff for a while.

everyone it's a jigglypuff gets bats and beat it to a pulp.


Really rhan I fail to understand you at all. I once came into a thread saying YL could win a tournment and you disargeed to the fullest saying it was impossible but zedla is closer to winning tournments than YL.

YL has little to no rep. Your arguement is more fruitless than mine about pichu that i've been argueing for years.

No one understand you at all in any of your posts.

And your existence is more fruitless then a maple tree.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I disargee you understand not what life is and what makes it worth anything

 

[Shaeman111]

lol @ matchups dont change xD

Theoretically no, they don't.
There's a set matchup chart, and a set tier list within melee, we've just yet to explore it.
Every time we improve on this game, we see more and more what the true metagame looks like.
From our prospective, matchups in fact DO change because the people that play the characters are strong/weak against certain other characters. And people are very tangible. The metagame however, was already set in stone when melee was created.

 

[Luma]

well thats is true, why would i see it from any other propective then we players do?

 

[BigWenz]

Here's Mewtwo and Zelda not losing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZAeGBnlT8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV2E8haD9XY

Here's Y.Link losing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yfX07es2q8

As soon as Y.Links start winning **** to back up what so far has been nothing more than butthurt crying over the fact that a character who has had no tournament presence nor any real accomplishments in the last 3 years with the exception of Vanz beating Darc in one match he'll get some consideration.

You know, if you really want to see Y.Link move up, there's a better way than sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming in hopes that eventually if you disagree hard enough things will change. Either bring legitimate reasoning for the character or shut the **** up and go somewhere else.

im not disagreeing that ylink needs more representation and needs to place in tournies however i dont think that the videos u posted can be used for anything since taj and cosmo's vids were this year while the ylink was from 3 years ago. For you to accurately compare m2 and zelda vs ylink you would need a video from this year (not saying its goin to be easy to find im just sayin its not really fair to use videos with 3 years of seperation to say why 2 characters are better than another since i know for a fact laijin has gotten alot better since when that video was taken )

 

[Rappster]

And your existence is more fruitless then a maple tree.

dude, maple trees are hella fruitful. ask any canadian smasher

 

[Brookman]

dude, maple trees are hella fruitful. Ask any canadian smasher

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I'm gonna convince Clyde (laijin) to go all Young Link from now on to shut everyone up.

(this is my secret plan to get him to stop playing Sheik in tournament. bwahaha. Marth v. Young Link so tasty)

 

[2SLO]

dude, maple trees are hella fruitful. ask any canadian smasher

LMFAO.

- anyway, on an off note, i agree with the whole "matchups do not change" it's always the higher ups that end up facing towards the end anyway. never in any tourneys do you ever see someone using someone other than marth/falco/fox/blahblahblah nearing the semi-finals match-ups, on rare occasions, you do. but we all know the outcome of that.

 

[NJzFinest]

Young Link winning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwe4dX-8nDA

Date means nothing!!!!


>.>

 

[Shaeman111]

LMFAO.

- anyway, on an off note, i agree with the whole "matchups do not change" it's always the higher ups that end up facing towards the end anyway. never in any tourneys do you ever see someone using someone other than marth/falco/fox/blahblahblah nearing the semi-finals match-ups, on rare occasions, you do. but we all know the outcome of that.

amen broseph

 

[JPOBS]

this whole "matchups dont change" thing is stupid.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Young Link winning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwe4dX-8nDA

Date means nothing!!!!


>.>

I can't believe Hanki quit man.

That guy was in line to be the next great AZ low tier. ****ing tragedy.

 

[Merkuri]

Young Link winning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwe4dX-8nDA

Date means nothing!!!!


>.>

I just watched vids of him beating Wobbles as well. Whatever happened to this guy? Did he just quit? I've never heard of him.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I can't believe Hanki quit man.

That guy was in line to be the next great AZ low tier. ****ing tragedy.

OMG.. I remember this man...

This was Axe and mine's very 1st like tournament ever.. it was soo much fun..
Yeah I remember it like yesterday gosh man.. Hanki was soo good..

He took me out of the winners bracket... and he took Axe out of the losers bracket.... I think he got 4th at the tournament... with Forward/Taj, and Trevyn placing right above him....but man he was something... I still remember how mindboggled Axe and I were when we saw him.. play.

(At this time, Axe was A Pikachu main/Fox-Falco secondary.. and I was a Falco main.)

Good times! ^^

He's beaten all of AZ's best players.. He's defeated Forward's Falco..., he's beaten Wobbles Ice Climbers many times... not sure if hes' taken games from Taj all with his Young Link.. but yeah he's definetely a great one...

Sadly, He just quit playing sometime shortly after this tournament... and we still don't completely understand.. but i'm assuming... the "life happens" johns took it's toll on him..

I miss him.. he was a big reason why I started playing Young Link, for a bit before I found Mewtwo and Yoshi.

 

[.Marik]

dude, maple trees are hella fruitful. ask any canadian smasher

Canadian reporting in. Co-signing.

I'll head back to my igloo now.

 

[NJzFinest]

Wow, thanks for the knowledge Vector Man.

The guy seems like he was hella good.

Despite the fact he doesn't play anymore, he's actually the main reason why I picked up YLink again. I simply came across his videos one day when searching "Axe Falco" and thought "... why do so little people use this character, he's fun as hell and underrated".

 

[V3ctorMan]

Wow, thanks for the knowledge Vector Man.

The guy seems like he was hella good.

Despite the fact he doesn't play anymore, he's actually the main reason why I picked up YLink again. I simply came across his videos one day when searching "Axe Falco" and thought "... why do so little people use this character, he's fun as hell and underrated".

Indeed.. Hanki was.. not even just a good player.. but overall just a good person at heart... very friendly... very funny.. a very cool guy to be around...

You guys are makin me miss him more.. ^^ but yeah... hopefully we can see another Young Link come around that'd be cool ^^

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

POUND5 I want to learn things I didn't know if I fight a marth I will **** you in pools. I want to f*** up H-box and place. I'm mentally training and playing against everyone I can right now. I understand the odds better than you think but I believe and that changes the odds more than picking sheik. I will make out of pools I want to make midwest proud for once.

 

[Shaeman111]

Pound 5, We'll see who has improved.
My hypothesis is that falco will win.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I will **** everyone I've got this. I'll feul my power every chance I get i'm getting a job so don't expect me on much

 

[NJzFinest]

It's a shame many of us never got to meet him. It seems you and the other AZ guys were very fortunate to get to know him.

And thanks again lol, like I said, he's driving me to use Ylink and I didn't know anything about him till now.

YLinks for Pound 5, let's do itttt.