More conservative stage list won't save the game, but it would be a start.
Eh, I mean not really. Take all the MK players, teach them Diddy/Snake/Falco/IC's. That's the new metagame either way lol. Maybe a sprinkle of marth.
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Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion
- Thread starter LanceStern
- Start date
Vex Kasrani
Smash Master
He's ridiculous in both levels of play, however, I agree with exactly what you're saying, game becomes more balanced between top and high tiers with Metaknight gone.
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
I say a conservative stage list would make MK tolerable. I truly believe we need to do away with these stupid i win stages. I mean there some other characters that have those too. They all usually happen to be the dumb stages like RC brinstar Delfino Castle Siege whatever. I say just do away with them and we automatically have a more balanced game WITH MK. I think its a good direction to start with.
@ John: Im fully aware there were contradictions. You pointing it out doesnt do anything. Im just telling you what people have said. And thats how they feel. I definitely see WHY people feel that way. Some feel its too early in the sense that theres tons more to figure out in this game. Some say its too late because if a ban went through that would alienate a gargantuan portion of the community.
@ John: Im fully aware there were contradictions. You pointing it out doesnt do anything. Im just telling you what people have said. And thats how they feel. I definitely see WHY people feel that way. Some feel its too early in the sense that theres tons more to figure out in this game. Some say its too late because if a ban went through that would alienate a gargantuan portion of the community.
Life
Smash Hero
I'll let BPC tear apart the underlying logic behind this (he's better at that), but I have to ask: who seriously autowins on CS? (Or any of the other ones, for that matter--don't say MK, nobody's proved it--but CS seems particularly out of place there.)
John12346
Smash Master
Well, then they should at least use the reasoning that a ban discussion shouldn't happen because of all the flaming/trolling/headaches for the moderators that will most likely occur, not say that "it's too late to bother."
B.A.M.
Smash Lord
and im explaining their reasoning. Whether its terribad, you decide.
As far as CS, I know for some characters vs D3 its really dumb. Its definitely not an auto win, but it definitely sucks. I would like to say I completely understand what you are saying; juxtaposed with the others its not that bad. I truly do want to hear BPC and the rest of our stage researchers in regards as to what stage list would promote a healthier environment for competition. I myself dont really see anything wrong with the BF, SV, and FD. I would like to know as far as starters go why that wouldnt be a smart move.
I feel that every character gets some advantage out of one of those 3. And I feel the disadvantages gained arent too bad vs other characters either. So iono. I truly believe ( and talking with some top players that believe the same) that the stage list is key to a more balanced brawl. So I would love to hear other opinions on the matter.
As far as CS, I know for some characters vs D3 its really dumb. Its definitely not an auto win, but it definitely sucks. I would like to say I completely understand what you are saying; juxtaposed with the others its not that bad. I truly do want to hear BPC and the rest of our stage researchers in regards as to what stage list would promote a healthier environment for competition. I myself dont really see anything wrong with the BF, SV, and FD. I would like to know as far as starters go why that wouldnt be a smart move.
I feel that every character gets some advantage out of one of those 3. And I feel the disadvantages gained arent too bad vs other characters either. So iono. I truly believe ( and talking with some top players that believe the same) that the stage list is key to a more balanced brawl. So I would love to hear other opinions on the matter.
Life
Smash Hero
Two things I want to say to this.
1. Did you see my ruleset? I have a line almost exactly like this at the end of my intro speech, lol. (Not gonna link it here, it's still a work-in-progress, so if you do decide to dig it up don't take it as Incom canon yet.)
2. I recall reading a statistic somewhere. It said that MK dominates at about the same rate regardless of the stagelist. However, the rest of the power concentrates in the A-tier more on a restrictive list whereas it spreads out more on an open list. If anyone remembers what I'm talking about, please back me up.
SFA Smiley
The SFA King
I like the current stagelist. Except yoshi's island.
/bias
/bias
Well, dittos are the only truly even matchups so thats the case with all characters.
John12346
Smash Master
You could make a case for Snake dittos not being 50:50...
SFA Smiley
The SFA King
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
I feel like a more conservative stage list would give a large boost to chars like Diddy, Falco, Olimar, and IC's. I don't think a good remedy to MK is to boost he next few chars in line to go even with him. I think it needs to apply to a bit more of the cast.
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
SFA Smiley
The SFA King
That's exactly what i was thinking, actually. My characters don't have a hard time on any stage though so stages have never been my concern.
F.U.B.A.R.
Smash Rookie
The only even MU would be Metaknight himself. Although, characters such as Snake, Falco, Diddy, Fox, and Pikachu can beat him but if the players both know the MU at the same level and have the same amount of experience the MK should win the match. So if you wanna beat him you just need to learn the MU better than your opponent.
Here's the problem with that: the stages characters ouside of A tier like... tend to also be stages MK likes as well. What's the point of having Delfino on a 5 stage starter list for "variety" when MK likes it the most anyways?
The way I see it, I'd rather make those A tier characters have the strongest possible chance of winning vs MK, than start adding Delfino Frigate etc to the starter list for the likes of lower tiered characters who would end up losing ANYWAYS on those stages because MK likes them.
If FD was the first stage in every set, you'd see fights between characters who like the stage and vs MK. If RC was the first stage in every set, you'd see Peach vs Falco look even at the cost of making MK a ******. Or say instead it's Delfino. Sure, Luigi now gets to play vs x character and get a fairly good MU, but now MK's MU got even harder.
I like spending more time and effort than my opponent in the hopes that he doesn't do the same back to me.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
stating the obvious but high tiers are better characters, if your using ness your probably not going to win now.
I don't see the offside of turning dominance into co-dominance with 5 other characters at the same time.
I'd rather watch sets be played on the same 5 stages than watching metaknight dittos in 5 winners games (or w.e it was) ,3 losers games (w.e it was) and 6 GF games.
Real talk would apex have been nearly as hype if we watched up to 4 sets of metaknight dittos in finals?I was under the impression seeing falco and olimar take top spots was exciting for a change.
I don't see the offside of turning dominance into co-dominance with 5 other characters at the same time.
I'd rather watch sets be played on the same 5 stages than watching metaknight dittos in 5 winners games (or w.e it was) ,3 losers games (w.e it was) and 6 GF games.
Real talk would apex have been nearly as hype if we watched up to 4 sets of metaknight dittos in finals?I was under the impression seeing falco and olimar take top spots was exciting for a change.
F.U.B.A.R.
Smash Rookie
I agree IDK why but its more interesting.
John12346
Smash Master
Probably because you all want to see MK lose, rather than watch a non-MK win.
Metakill
Smash Journeyman
the only reason that we think about mk/snake is even is when Ally finally win a big tourney against m2k and then repeat and genesis.
I really think mk haven't even matchups, only a ditto.
lol i remember when the people think that kirby/mk was even lol
I really think mk haven't even matchups, only a ditto.
lol i remember when the people think that kirby/mk was even lol
Basically this ^
I enjoy watching Meta Knights lose. Only thing I don't enjoy is Playing them... Especially with the starter list we have where we'll either go Smashville literally 95% of the time, or LC/BF.
Hell a tournament I just attended last week... I literally kept going to SV Game 1 and at one point got so annoyed by this I actually Striked SV to avoid playing on it.
and bowser
and yoshi
and zss
and puff
and ics
and rob
and sheik
and luigi
and dk (omg cuz he so heavy and he kill so urly when he not having trouble with the weather)
Reizilla
The Old Lapras and the Sea
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2008
- Messages
- 13,676
The hell didn't you strike Smashville against me for?!
And it's not like a bigger stage list would give Yoshi a better shot against MK. Just a less garbage stage than Smashville.
Blacknight99923
Smash Champion
its what John said.
people don't root for metaknight
people don't root for metaknight
John12346
Smash Master
The more I read these kinds of threads, the more tempted I get to start a movement to get some discussion on MK going.
It's like NO ONE has anything nice to say about him, srsly.
It's like NO ONE has anything nice to say about him, srsly.
Maybe if we take him out to dinner and talk about life outside his usual routine of stealing players money and tournament experience. We'll find a soft and gooey center inside that Purple Ball of Hate.
John12346
Smash Master
Well, strictly speaking, he is just as mushy as Kirby is...
Gah, in either case, I really want to start something, but I have no idea how to start something as big as that... It doesn't help that the most important means of doing this, by posting on the forums, isn't allowed...
Gah, in either case, I really want to start something, but I have no idea how to start something as big as that... It doesn't help that the most important means of doing this, by posting on the forums, isn't allowed...
I think the cape looks good on him.
Steam
Smash Hero
>.>
<.<
MK should be banned. he doesn't HAVE to be... but he should...
>.>
<.<
*runs*
<.<
MK should be banned. he doesn't HAVE to be... but he should...
>.>
<.<
*runs*
cHp
Smash Apprentice
Meta Knight is blue
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Banning Meta Knight was a good idea a year ago, two years ago, and now.
I think that even if someone beats MK, he should be banned because his design doesn't interact well with global mechanics.
I think that even if someone beats MK, he should be banned because his design doesn't interact well with global mechanics.
Steam
Smash Hero
sadly though, the damage from MK not being banned has already been done. At this point I'm pretty sure 2/3 of the community mains him or subs him. and plenty of others have quit because of him... lol
That's why it's "too late" lol
banning him now makes most of the community lose their main or sub
Have you guys been looking at John#'s success thread? It's exactly like Steam said. He should be, but it doesn't have to, so it probably won't happen. Numbers don't lie though, and he is taking over this game. It's only halfway through the year and he's made about 3times as much as snake, plus more than falco, diddy, and snake combined lol
banning him now makes most of the community lose their main or sub
Have you guys been looking at John#'s success thread? It's exactly like Steam said. He should be, but it doesn't have to, so it probably won't happen. Numbers don't lie though, and he is taking over this game. It's only halfway through the year and he's made about 3times as much as snake, plus more than falco, diddy, and snake combined lol
IDK about Singles, but I think banning him in teams is actually a feasible idea. MK is such a limiting character in teams, and I can't think of a single time that a national was won in the history of Brawl with a team other than MK + other character.
Even then, that 1-2 times that probably consisted of Ally + top player (I think it was Ally and Larry?) is outdone by the number of nationals won by non MK. You could make the argument "Well hey Ally won Genesis / ADHD won SNES / Fiction won WGF / Gnes won MLG / etc" for singles, but there's no comparison for doubles at all really. Which is why I think you could feasibly ban him in teams.