Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

[B.A.M.]

LAEM= MEAL BACKWARDS!

SAN IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE GREATEST RAPPERS ALIVE.

But seriously;

@ San I feel like you could say the same for Falco, ICs, or Diddy. I mean Falco has tons of frame traps that even MK has to respect. Laser frame traps, perfect double jab cancel means meta has to simply SDI away. IC's one grab one stock. Diddy; naner lock, amazing shield couple with virtually the best punisher to nado since it leads into tons of guaranteed stuff.

Infact I feel Mk does well because moreso than any other character he can punish you heavily with one simple execution error. you make a dumb mistake for the majority of the cast that = gimp or one case of bad DI on a SL or something means death.

I mean some people are still dying somewhat early to Meta's KO options, when they shouldnt be capable of doing so. Iono though San, maybe its just me, but I feel that theres just certain characters that can compete with MK; they just havent been able to advance like he has. Which is something that has ALWAYS saddened me about this game; I feel that a myriad of characters growth were stunted for awhile. The community was so convinced he was unbeatable.

I mean theres still stuff a lot of people dont know about characters who go toe to toe with Mk. Falco being a big one. I also believe a lot of it has to do with the stagelist as well. A lot of top players have said one certain stages they go even or may have a slight advantage. however at the end of it all, theres just too many CP MK has to snatch that win. Thats how i feel about it to some extent.

 

[san.]

That's where we have different views. You believe the gap will close once other characters' metagames advance, while I believe it widens as both progress. You say that you think MK punishes hard for a mistake, I believe it's the opposite for these characters whom MK players let other characters get jabs/grabs on him.

A lot of questions keep coming up when I think of this situation: How reliable are these strategies against a competent MK? Getting the grab, jab, etc, do these outrange MK's options in certain conditions, or were the MKs making simple mistakes?

I believe some of MK's physics when getting hit by strings and his slow normal aerial speed are apparent weaknesses in certain situations.


ICS: How can ICs reliably get a grab? ICs have been putting in a lot of work on desync tactics, but they mostly work towards characters ICs already beats. It doesn't work as well as they want against characters with long-ranged aerial and ground attacks. One or two separations will kill Nana.

ICs are also unplayable on counterpicks.

Falco:
Not entirely sure.
Up close, I do know that Falco has a bit of trouble. He actually has some followups into his close ranged game through lasers, but lasers are really easy to get past through a grounded approach. Can Falco reliably win against MK's ground game?

The air is a little scary for MK, his is where is normal lack of aerial mobility hurts, but MK has the options to return safely to the ground.


Diddy: I don't think the nanner lock is the redeeming factor of the MU, but other more basic/general factors. We all know Diddy can control the ground very well, but how well can Diddy control the flow against characters in the air?

Looking at Gnes, ADHD, they both are getting better at controlling the air (and therefore the stage overall) with the bananas combined with Diddy's moveset. That's a huge factor when I noticed Gnes' massive growth, for instance. Whenever I see top level Diddys lose, their fortress gets picked apart little by little against a predominantly aerial MK.

 

[Judo777]

I'm gonna say right now playing the character is not even close to the same amount of experience as playing against them. Granted its not irrlevant information (as learning to play a character is VERY useful at learning how they think) but its is definitely NOT the same as playing against a person who mains that character.

I try to be not braggy sounding but I play pretty much the entire cast, and i think that I could be ranked in KY with about 20 different characters. Just because my diddy kong is pretty decent doesn't mean I know the MU very well (which I don't). I'm not saying tyrant playing fox isn't a valid point because it is, but I am saying I don't think its as useful as you think it is.

 

[ballistick]

I think the thing with metaknight that he has over most is that he is strong anywhere and has options both on the ground and in the air. Now, I havent been playing brawl for a long time, nor am I that good so dont take what I am saying too seriously.

- Metaknight is strong on the ground
- Metaknight is strong on the air
therefore...he is hard to punish

I am currently maining metaknight and am getting to the point where I can beat most level 9s 1vs1 (I know, I need help). A few hours ago, picked a random sparring partner and turned out to be yoshi. I have to admit that I was losing by two or three stocks before I turned it back to lose on a last life battle (10 stock game). It wasnt because the matchup was even, if I had known how to play against yoshi, like I do against falco, then I would have had a better chance. Key therefore I think is knowledge of the matchups against certain characters (of course there are some that metaknight can gimp regardless) such as diddy, falco and pikachu and top level ICs. Should metaknight players have knowledge of these matchups, they generally fare better and the match is swung in their favour due to the number of options available to metaknight players (that is only rivalled by diddy). Not knowing MUs well enough is the main bane of metaknight players, at least at my level.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Surprised people didn't know this.

Maharba backwards is Abraham OMG!!!

Spoiler

DRACULA = !!!
GIRAFARIG OMG

Ontopic: I use MK vs people sometimes in friendlies and my previous thoughts remain.

you've figured out where i got my game name from. you truly are the best ike

 

[Blacknight99923]

TKD got outplayed vs tyrant.

I don't understand why people can't accept that metaknight players can outplay people.

I mean Ally **** on ADHD with wario. I'm pretty sure i can confidently say Allys metaknight is entirely the player.

Mks mus are probably along the lines of this

ditto even
snake 55-45 when the snake isn't a random complaining about how ahrd they get juggled
Diddy 6-4 although people probably won't give me credence on this. I'll take 55-45
Falco 55-45 straight from DEHF.
ICs- stage dependant MK obviously loses on FD but obviously wins on Brinstar.
olimar 55-45
Fox 5-5 its not impossible for tyrant to outplay TKD lol
Pikachu- I dunno anything about this.
Marth 55-45 6-4 imo if the marth is better and knows what he's doing he'll win.

MK basically has a bunch of near even mus and like 2-3 even mus.

That being said he still has to actually outplay his opponents to win. Ally outplayed Razer at Whobo. Ally outplayed ADHD (with wario even lol) and ally is like 24-0 with anti or something LOL.

I don't see how its so hard to believe ally simply got better, AND went metaknight more.

 

[B.A.M.]

@ San:

From what Ive seen and learned from Larry; Falco can compete with MK ground game. Ftilt is safe on shield, double jab cancel once MK is caught in it can be done in succession with no fear of punishment. Coming into close range with lasers nets frame advantage, his grab range is good enough to walk shield grab MKs hand during things like ftilt. Uair>any aerial frame trap works on MK for sure. short side b's hit right into that frame trap as well.

Falco forces an approach on MK. He has wonderful frame data to combat MK close range. People really just dont get how good Falco is. I will say this though; it sucks for Falco when it comes to recovering. MK gets free damage due to RCO lag and his already solid juggling.

ICs: true. CPs mess them up hard. And the thing is not so much ICs just get the grab; its the fact that they can coupled with the absurd damage they put out due to double hit boxes. Using Desyncs along with utlizing ICs aerials tilts and what not rack up quite a bit of damage on a light character. I do concur though that separations vs MK mean death if the MK is competent. However, I do wish to see a top level IC like 9B vs one of our competent Meta to get a better idea of the match up.

Diddy: As far as Diddy is concerned, I feel again that this character has a solid footing vs MK. I believe that ADHD and Gnes will get a better understanding of combating aerial MKs soon. I mean given Diddys aerials and naners, with a conjunction of a sh ( so you are already in the air, removing the 5 frames when you need to jump and punish) Diddy should be able to punish things like dair in its actual ending lag. Just looking at Diddys frame data with conjunction of naners, I do think its possible for Diddy to have a solid anti air defense vs MK. Again I think its something that will appear in time.

I mean I know you cant just babble about frame data all day; but it does (along with hitbox knowledge) lend us a glimpse of what could be possible. Its just going to take time for it to be applied; and when you got only a handful of diddy, falco, and ICs pushing their metagame I think that such growth just cant compete with the tons of knowledgeable minds pushing MK. MK is definitely best overall, but I think that he has some truly even match ups. Its just going to take time.

@Judo: No offense or anything but what top players are there in KY? Theres a ton of ppl that could be PR in anywhere not Texas, NJ/NY, So Cal, and Florida. Secondly, tyrants fox isnt pretty decent; its really good. Also Iono how you can say you really play that character and not know the match up. If you really play diddy then you should know his idiosyncrasies, his frame data, his shield, his range, some traps, etc. All you do is match your main info with that knowledge and you can craft out what to do in that match up.

Just playing the character time to time and actually picking up the character are two COMPLETELY different things.

 

[Judo777]

@ San:

From what Ive seen and learned from Larry; Falco can compete with MK ground game. Ftilt is safe on shield, double jab cancel once MK is caught in it can be done in succession with no fear of punishment. Coming into close range with lasers nets frame advantage, his grab range is good enough to walk shield grab MKs hand during things like ftilt. Uair>any aerial frame trap works on MK for sure. short side b's hit right into that frame trap as well.

Falco forces an approach on MK. He has wonderful frame data to combat MK close range. People really just dont get how good Falco is. I will say this though; it sucks for Falco when it comes to recovering. MK gets free damage due to RCO lag and his already solid juggling.

ICs: true. CPs mess them up hard. And the thing is not so much ICs just get the grab; its the fact that they can coupled with the absurd damage they put out due to double hit boxes. Using Desyncs along with utlizing ICs aerials tilts and what not rack up quite a bit of damage on a light character. I do concur though that separations vs MK mean death if the MK is competent. However, I do wish to see a top level IC like 9B vs one of our competent Meta to get a better idea of the match up.

Diddy: As far as Diddy is concerned, I feel again that this character has a solid footing vs MK. I believe that ADHD and Gnes will get a better understanding of combating aerial MKs soon. I mean given Diddys aerials and naners, with a conjunction of a sh ( so you are already in the air, removing the 5 frames when you need to jump and punish) Diddy should be able to punish things like dair in its actual ending lag. Just looking at Diddys frame data with conjunction of naners, I do think its possible for Diddy to have a solid anti air defense vs MK. Again I think its something that will appear in time.

I mean I know you cant just babble about frame data all day; but it does (along with hitbox knowledge) lend us a glimpse of what could be possible. Its just going to take time for it to be applied; and when you got only a handful of diddy, falco, and ICs pushing their metagame I think that such growth just cant compete with the tons of knowledgeable minds pushing MK. MK is definitely best overall, but I think that he has some truly even match ups. Its just going to take time.

@Judo: No offense or anything but what top players are there in KY? Theres a ton of ppl that could be PR in anywhere not Texas, NJ/NY, So Cal, and Florida. Secondly, tyrants fox isnt pretty decent; its really good. Also Iono how you can say you really play that character and not know the match up. If you really play diddy then you should know his idiosyncrasies, his frame data, his shield, his range, some traps, etc. All you do is match your main info with that knowledge and you can craft out what to do in that match up.

Just playing the character time to time and actually picking up the character are two COMPLETELY different things.

Top players in Kentucky/Indiana since we were on the same PR and i think I could be ranked in IN/KY as well. You have Kel who just moved here, Krystedez, Renegade, Count, Myself (although I might not be considered anybody), and Hilt was here until recently. But we actually have alot of players that can compete with the alot people I just named.

And just because you know their ranges, and frame data, and even how to play them doesn't mean you understand how to take advantage of their weaknesses with your character in each situation. If you know how long and how strong diddys monkey flip is, it doesn't mean you know the best way to punish it. MU's are far more complex then you make them sound. There are so many things you have to know, things you need to do to cover options they don't even have yet and stuff like that. Playing the character and knowing how to play against it aren't the same thing.

My Diddy (who btw i don't even consider in my top 7 characters) can go toe to toe with Kels Falco (which is really legit).

 

[Blacknight99923]

And DEHF's metaknight could wipe the floor with your entire region, but no one gives a ****

I'm not trying to offend lesser regions when I say this, but I have to agree with bam. I'm fairly confident theres randoms in several regions that would be ranked in others.

I guess the only way to remedy it is to force your entire region to get better.

If your randoms are better, your ranks are better its just how it works.

 

[DMG]

Not their entire region

 

[Judo777]

And DEHF's metaknight could wipe the floor with your entire region, but no one gives a ****

I'm not trying to offend lesser regions when I say this, but I have to agree with bam. I'm fairly confident theres randoms in several regions that would be ranked in others.

I guess the only way to remedy it is to force your entire region to get better.

If your randoms are better, your ranks are better its just how it works.

Well ofc DEHF's could hes a top level player that plays Falco, if he swapped to MK hed be even better......................

And I'm sorry but until you come to our region and play our players, don't act like you can immediately judge our players. You have no idea whether we are bad or good since you have never been here. So don't act like you know.

And LOL at you saying no one cares when...... I was replying to post. Go figure the person who cares is the person i was talking to. Isn't that weird?

 

[Juushichi]

Going off of Judo's post, then you have people that are considered randoms outside of our region like Fizzle (unranked in OH when he 2-0'd Chibo at MLG), MX (An unranked Yoshi here who surprised people by almost beating Boss at that same tournament) and Kansas kind of taking a dump on a lot of people in tournaments.

It's not like we don't lose to top players like everyone else does.

 

[Blacknight99923]

no one gives a **** about secondaries in general is what i'm saying.

DEHF's metaknight is on par with his falco for the worlds reference.

But DEHF is falco so it makes more sense to pick himself

and i'm not refering to the entirety of MW either.

my reference is, if you have your own PR you are your own region.


thats like saying Norcal and socal are the same region, I guarantee you almost every socal player will be happy to explain to you the differentiation of us>them

 

[DMG]

His MK is not on par with his Falco lol. I love Larry, but let's not kid ourselves. His Falco is AMAZING. His MK might not even be top 10.

But yeah, what is all of this even about anyways

 

[Blacknight99923]

His MK is not on par with his Falco lol. I love Larry, but let's not kid ourselves. His Falco is AMAZING. His MK might not even be top 10.

But yeah, what is all of this even about anyways

Its at the same skill level

he almost beat m2k in mk dittos (close but no cigar)


and he's beaten Tyrant in MK dittos before.

His metaknight could easily still place in socal tournaments.

is his metaknight as good as his falco no, is it at the same level of play yes

I think the origonal topic was about learning secondaries gets you better vs that character origonally

I believe it was judo saying you needed to play vs the character while bam was saying you can play as the character learn about it then theory craft your match ups.

and before i derailed the topic in a rather obtuse and impolite manner (to which i apologize) I was trying to say that yes I agree with bam you can learn how to fight a character by playing as it.

 

[Judo777]

Its at the same skill level

he almost beat m2k in mk dittos (close but no cigar)


and he's beaten Tyrant in MK dittos before.

His metaknight could easily still place in socal tournaments.

is his metaknight as good as his falco no, is it at the same level of play yes

I think the origonal topic was about learning secondaries gets you better vs that character origonally

I believe it was judo saying you needed to play vs the character while bam was saying you can play as the character learn about it then theory craft your match ups.

and before i derailed the topic in a rather obtuse and impolite manner (to which i apologize) I was trying to say that yes I agree with bam you can learn how to fight a character by playing as it.

Alright well i apologize for attitude to. I get a little defensive when people rag on my region (which I know we aren't that great but I do think we are very underrated). Anyway I disagree with your point on playing the char but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Alright well i apologize for attitude to. I get a little defensive when people rag on my region (which I know we aren't that great but I do think we are very underrated). Anyway I disagree with your point on playing the char but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

To be honest I can't say your method is wrong

I mean you do learn match ups by playing against the character.

However that only works if you can play that person for as long as you need to to play that MU. Unfortunately that doesn't help you much if your just going to get ***** like tyrant between sets of top foxes for a year.

Tbh I feel as though I have definetly grasped a firm knowledge on the diddy and olimar MUs by playing as the characters, and then studying videos.


If you want to learn a MU by playing as the character I recommend first of all
1. Being generally knowledgeable abotu the character, I mean what good does it do you if you don't know warios fart times for example

2. take notes: this is really important, write everything you learn about the character down. Its the most efficient way to learn the options of a character so you don't forget them 2 minutes later. Its also important to note extensive things that your character can't deal with. For example I wrote down that its pramgatic to react to diddys banana's from a certain distance away. Olimars grab loses to most SH moves, SH airdodges, the fast spotddges (usually) and rolls for the most part. Other moves that don't neccassarily beat grab but can get in on olimar are fast invading moves such as metaknights and snakes dash attack (and i'm sure shieks as well) I wrote these options down for olimar.



3. Compare attributes and test options: Its really important you test options. This can be a real pain in the *** but its generally well worth for me to know that metaknights tornado is an effective counter against diddys up B if he isn't going for the ledge and i don't want to risk mistiming a dair/fair or get hit by barrels. then you have to test options. When you use fox you learn when to shield his dair combos if he gets greedy. You learn situations he likes to up smash.

For a direct example of theory craft application you gain I can provide this. A mk I don't paticularly like getting up air'd by ice climbers ( who i also use btw). dair camping above ic's doesn't generally work but I also noticed when ic's up air they commit to it and they generally miss if their opponent moves like side to side. So when I dair camp I try to hit Ic's with the side of dair (and position myself so it happens) now if I predict up airs correctly i developed a way to counter them while avoiding taking 15% LOL


Learning how to play a character to learn how to fight it does take a lot of work and dedication, but its something you can do on your own (which is a huge boon) and I seriously recommend applying it to anyones training if they are trying to get better.

 

[B.A.M.]

Judo. If you know how far monkey flip goes and its range, and you know your characters own range. Wouldnt you be able to easily figure out what would work? Its like you just pick and choose what to read. You're telling me that knowing the properties of a particular move isnt a major portion of figuring out how to stop it? You have to be kidding me.

Read what I said man. Theres no use debating this is you are going to act oblivious to certain parts of my argument. Here, let me give you an example since apparently what Im saying is so absurd.

I main marth and im trying to learn the Diddy match up. I know Diddy monkey flip range and where it can grab because I took the time to pick up and learn the character. I know its hitbox since I use it all the time. Of course I am a Marth main so i know quite a bit of ins and outs of my character. I know Nair is safe, my strongest tipper aerial and has very good range. i know monkey flips moves diddy forward but actual hitbox isnt that big. So I say to myself hey, retreating Nair keeps me spaced so my disjoint wins out and its fairly safe worst case scenario. Tada!!! I figured out an option vs Monkey Flip. AND GUESS WHAT? I DIDNT HAVE TO PLAY ADHD TO DO SO. Because no matter what, Diddy is Diddy. His monkey flip isnt going to hit half the screen because Gnes is playing him. So if I pick up the character and INVEST time into learning that character, I can realize his flaws, and in CONJUNCTION with my mains frame data,and pros and cons, I can teach myself the match up.

And im sorry; being able to be PR in KY realistically doesnt have that much weight. Now if you are owning good people from different regions, then thats something I can respect. Theres just not much top talent in KY; unless I was being unaware of some KY player winning or placing high in nationals or something. At the very best I can give you the benefit of the doubt and say they just havent been able to go to national tournies. Even then that means that theres no way to really measure the skill level there so it doesnt really mean a thing. You can 'think' your region is underrated. Go right ahead. You are making it seem like its worthwhile to being PR in KY. So prove to me with supportable evidence via nationals that this is so. Otherwise I cant just take your word for it.

Im not saying you play a character for a bit and all of a sudden you can just counter that character like nobodies business. No. Im saying that if you invest time in a character, along WITH your knowledge on your main character's moveset, you can figure out which options actually work.

Its not the quickest way necessarily, but it lends the personal understanding of WHY move a beat move b, and 'not just o I played this guy and this guy and it worked so it prolly works.'

Learning and playing a character is an actual valid option is aiding someone with learning the match up. If you cant even see that as an option I dont know what to tell you. You really thing the ONLY way is to play other people who play that character?

Thats really really bad.

 

[Judo777]

Judo. If you know how far monkey flip goes and its range, and you know your characters own range. Wouldnt you be able to easily figure out what would work? Its like you just pick and choose what to read. You're telling me that knowing the properties of a particular move isnt a major portion of figuring out how to stop it? You have to be kidding me.

Read what I said man. Theres no use debating this is you are going to act oblivious to certain parts of my argument. Here, let me give you an example since apparently what Im saying is so absurd.

I main marth and im trying to learn the Diddy match up. I know Diddy monkey flip range and where it can grab because I took the time to pick up and learn the character. I know its hitbox since I use it all the time. Of course I am a Marth main so i know quite a bit of ins and outs of my character. I know Nair is safe, my strongest tipper aerial and has very good range. i know monkey flips moves diddy forward but actual hitbox isnt that big. So I say to myself hey, retreating Nair keeps me spaced so my disjoint wins out and its fairly safe worst case scenario. Tada!!! I figured out an option vs Monkey Flip. AND GUESS WHAT? I DIDNT HAVE TO PLAY ADHD TO DO SO. Because no matter what, Diddy is Diddy. His monkey flip isnt going to hit half the screen because Gnes is playing him. So if I pick up the character and INVEST time into learning that character, I can realize his flaws, and in CONJUNCTION with my mains frame data,and pros and cons, I can teach myself the match up.

And im sorry; being able to be PR in KY realistically doesnt have that much weight. Now if you are owning good people from different regions, then thats something I can respect. Theres just not much top talent in KY; unless I was being unaware of some KY player winning or placing high in nationals or something. At the very best I can give you the benefit of the doubt and say they just havent been able to go to national tournies. Even then that means that theres no way to really measure the skill level there so it doesnt really mean a thing. You can 'think' your region is underrated. Go right ahead. You are making it seem like its worthwhile to being PR in KY. So prove to me with supportable evidence via nationals that this is so. Otherwise I cant just take your word for it.

Im not saying you play a character for a bit and all of a sudden you can just counter that character like nobodies business. No. Im saying that if you invest time in a character, along WITH your knowledge on your main character's moveset, you can figure out which options actually work.

Its not the quickest way necessarily, but it lends the personal understanding of WHY move a beat move b, and 'not just o I played this guy and this guy and it worked so it prolly works.'

Learning and playing a character is an actual valid option is aiding someone with learning the match up. If you cant even see that as an option I dont know what to tell you. You really thing the ONLY way is to play other people who play that character?

Thats really really bad.

I had a long post typed up but its not worth it. Nevermind that. So anyway by your logic then Ally knows about every MU in smash since he plays a really legit just about everyone?

Ally has a great Snake and a great Wario, therefore he must know the Wario Snake MU really well. He has a great CF and a pretty legit IC's so he knows the MU too right?

 

[LanceStern]

And im sorry; being able to be PR in KY realistically doesnt have that much weight. Now if you are owning good people from different regions, then thats something I can respect. Theres just not much top talent in KY; unless I was being unaware of some KY player winning or placing high in nationals or something. At the very best I can give you the benefit of the doubt and say they just havent been able to go to national tournies. Even then that means that theres no way to really measure the skill level there so it doesnt really mean a thing. You can 'think' your region is underrated. Go right ahead. You are making it seem like its worthwhile to being PR in KY. So prove to me with supportable evidence via nationals that this is so. Otherwise I cant just take your word for it.

The tough part is, you can be PR in an almost no name region and be one of the best in the world... you never know. Just look at Lee Martin.

 

[B.A.M.]

okay again you arent reading what im saying. I said with conjunction of your own characters knowledge you can learn a match up. IM SAYING ITS AN OPTION. Theres many ways to learn a match up, you are the one claiming that only true way to learn a match up is through playing other mains of the character. You're the arguing as if its not possible to learn a match up that way. Im saying it is possible to learn it through that method. Never did i say you automatically understand it, i said you have the tools to understand it, given you information you have on the two characters. You could play all the mains of a character in the world and not learn crap if you dont apply the information (hey look I can use an argumentative fallacy too). So please take that strawman fallacy bs elsewhere. Thank you

Oh and by the way, Ally is kinda like better than most people( Imagine that!). Him being legit isnt necessarily because he knows the character. He knows the 'smash' match up lol as in how people think, what theyre going to do. I guarantee you if you had vids of Ally's many characters, a main of that character could tell you what hes missing, what he doesnt know about, etc. Hes just better than a ton of people player wise. So yes that argument is very bad.


@LanceStern: Which is why i said I give him the benefit of the doubt. The point is that neither I nor he has substantial evidence for his region being strong. Thats my point. Besides he was just speaking of being PR in KY. If his region was filled with some players that attend nationals and place well, that would give some weight to his argument, although if they only had like 2 decent players then that still means making their PR (assuming its 10) isnt that big of a deal. Im saying at the very best, all i can say is theres no evidence for my side and his; which means that argument is invalid in the discussion. Besides, you're from SD, and Ive played you so I know you know the tourney scene a bit. A ton of So Cal randoms could be PR everywhere else. Larry and I were just talking about this the other day. We live in a top region so thats how it goes.


In any case I dont feel like dragging this on. So Im going to break it down like this:

Judo. What do you learn from playing multiple mains of a particular character? After you answer that, explain what information (we are talking about strictly match up info although typical character baits and stuff could be learn by learning the character and going to their boards) you gain from doing so, which you cant gain from playing the character yourself.

I hope we can both agree that knowing a match up is (for the most part) knowing what a character can do + knowing how to punish what the character can do with your character.

If not, then we can just agree to disagree. Thats perfectly fine; just as long as you dont marginalize my argument like youre doing now lol.

Anyways lets get back to discussing MetaKnight yeah?

 

[Judo777]

okay again you arent reading what im saying. I said with conjunction of your own characters knowledge you can learn a match up. IM SAYING ITS AN OPTION. Theres many ways to learn a match up, you are the one claiming that only true way to learn a match up is through playing other mains of the character. You're the arguing as if its not possible to learn a match up that way. Im saying it is possible to learn it through that method. Never did i say you automatically understand it, i said you have the tools to understand it, given you information you have on the two characters. You could play all the mains of a character in the world and not learn crap if you dont apply the information (hey look I can use an argumentative fallacy too). So please take that strawman fallacy bs elsewhere. Thank you

Oh and by the way, Ally is kinda like better than most people( Imagine that!). Him being legit isnt necessarily because he knows the character. He knows the 'smash' match up lol as in how people think, what theyre going to do. I guarantee you if you had vids of Ally's many characters, a main of that character could tell you what hes missing, what he doesnt know about, etc. Hes just better than a ton of people player wise. So yes that argument is very bad.


@LanceStern: Which is why i said I give him the benefit of the doubt. The point is that neither I nor he has substantial evidence for his region being strong. Thats my point. Besides he was just speaking of being PR in KY. If his region was filled with some players that attend nationals and place well, that would give some weight to his argument, although if they only had like 2 decent players then that still means making their PR (assuming its 10) isnt that big of a deal. Im saying at the very best, all i can say is theres no evidence for my side and his; which means that argument is invalid in the discussion. Besides, you're from SD, and Ive played you so I know you know the tourney scene a bit. A ton of So Cal randoms could be PR everywhere else. Larry and I were just talking about this the other day. We live in a top region so thats how it goes.


In any case I dont feel like dragging this on. So Im going to break it down like this:

Judo. What do you learn from playing multiple mains of a particular character? After you answer that, explain what information (we are talking about strictly match up info although typical character baits and stuff could be learn by learning the character and going to their boards) you gain from doing so, which you cant gain from playing the character yourself.

I hope we can both agree that knowing a match up is (for the most part) knowing what a character can do + knowing how to punish what the character can do with your character.

If not, then we can just agree to disagree. Thats perfectly fine; just as long as you dont marginalize my argument like youre doing now lol.

Anyways lets get back to discussing MetaKnight yeah?

Well at least we finally hit the point I was aiming at. Yea Ally is freaking great at smash. Maybe its more so he is good at the game and less with the character. Now why is it a stretch to say that Tyrant isn't in the same boat. Maybe Tyrants fox is really good because he is a good player. How do we know that Tyrant couldn't be like what you mentioned could be true above and play both characters and not really applying the knowledge.

Of course you can learn a MU just by playing the characters. you can learn a MU just by playing one player too. But it also is entirely possible that a player might not even realize he doesn't understand a MU as well as he thinks. And you can't be certain how well you know it until you get a frame of reference by playing other players. For instance if you only play 1 Fox ever, how can you be sure if you know the MU, or if your just way better, or if your not way better and you don't know the MU and your character just ***** theirs.

Tyrant might know the MU, he might not, he might know the MU by playing both characters, or he might not be applying the knowledge of using both as well as he should. Maybe he thinks he is and he isn't. It's not an issue with how good you are its simply an issue of inexperience in the MU. The only way to be sure is to play other Fox's at that level of play otherwise you can't be sure if your way better, or if the MU is awful, or if your playing it wrong.

Lets get off the topic of me because we finally got to where I wanted to go with the conversation. Yes you can learn the MU by playing both characters (which I have learned alot, although i do think there are some things that can only be learned by playing against the char, but thats beside the point).

Again I'm not trying to insult you i apologize if it sounded that way.

PS. I hate it when people use the term straw man *glares at thiocyanide* lol

 

[B.A.M.]

Sounds bueno. On with the MK discussion!

 

[Blacknight99923]

larrys MK beat tyrant in losers finals 3-1

Sorry DMG but larrys mk is definitively on par with his falco.

 

[z00ted]

This thread is really idiotic.

 

[Blacknight99923]

This thread is really idiotic.

well metaknight is really idiotic don't you think?

I mean come on you should be proud of this community. This hasn't descended into an MK ban discussion, I mean really this thread was basically asking for it

 

[z00ted]

MK should be banned, lol.

I don't care either way though.
Metaknight has absolutely no even matchups.

 

[DMG]

larrys MK beat tyrant in losers finals 3-1

Sorry DMG but larrys mk is definitively on par with his falco.

Oh, so 1 tournament validates this belief? Lmfao.

I'm not even saying Larry's MK is BAD. But to call his MK as good as his Falco... would be wrong. Larry is not known for being MK's in the ditto and eating them up for breakfast. Why? Cause he's usually going Falco and doing it even stronger.

Falco = his better character. Can he place well with either character? Obviously.

I'll drop it cause frankly it doesn't matter whether his MK is as good as his Falco. But I will say this: he has won significantly more sets and tournaments with his Falco than his MK. That should be evident of his extreme prowess with the character, to a degree that I would find it hard for him to match with another character unless he had another similar track record.

MK should be banned, lol.

I don't care either way though.
Metaknight has absolutely no even matchups.

MK has even matchups what are you talking about.

Snake
Diddy
Falco
Olimar
IC's
Wario
Bowser
Yoshi
Peach
Ness
Fox
Wolf
G&W
Dedede
Lucario
ZSS

 

[John12346]

I think the real problem isn't whether or not MK should be banned, but rather the proceeding headaches that would occur during the process itself.

Anyway, real talk, I can see Falco vs. MK being even on FD and SV only... every other stage is MK's advantage, for sure. Agreement?

 

[Laem]

Don't forget Marth
nor DK

 

[DMG]

DK people were obviously crazy. He doesn't count. Other characters had some "shroud" of validity to the claims that they went even with MK.

I considered putting Luigi up there, but that would be too much.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Bowser has upb OOS, and can Klaw tornado, it's obv even.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Oh, so 1 tournament validates this belief? Lmfao.

I'm not even saying Larry's MK is BAD. But to call his MK as good as his Falco... would be wrong. Larry is not known for being MK's in the ditto and eating them up for breakfast. Why? Cause he's usually going Falco and doing it even stronger.

Falco = his better character. Can he place well with either character? Obviously.

I'll drop it cause frankly it doesn't matter whether his MK is as good as his Falco. But I will say this: he has won significantly more sets and tournaments with his Falco than his MK. That should be evident of his extreme prowess with the character, to a degree that I would find it hard for him to match with another character unless he had another similar track record.

I completely understand where your coming from.

but what I'm saying is......Don't doubt socal swagga LOL

 

[Toronto Joe]

99% of the people that argue mk should be banned will never reach the level where matchup ratios actually are a factor, for ex: most mks have and will lose lose to dehf or mike haze regardless, if that makes any sense to you guys

Sorry for bringing up ban issue again btw

Edit: Also i think alot of allys skill can be attributed to the fact hes played so many people, think of all the playstyles,gimmicks etc hes seen, no doubt hes really smart but i think his travel experiences have helped him improve too

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Ally is the best at brawl.

 

[B.A.M.]

true that. Real talk though, majority of the reasons why MK is so good is our crap of a stage selection system. just sayin. You change that and we would have a solid game going. Thats my humble opinion.

 

[Flayl]

99% of the people that argue mk should be banned will never reach the level where matchup ratios actually are a factor

Yo, this statement is a lot dumber than you think it is. Characters don't lose inherent advantages in mid-level play, the players just aren't able to exploit them to the same degree. But then you also have to consider players also make more mistakes, so it almost always circles back to the ratio argued for top level play, exceptions being for when there are high skill techniques involved of which MK has none.

MK doesn't lose range in mid-level play, tornado doesn't becomes SDI'able in the middle of it during high level play, shuttle loop doesn't lose knockback at mid-level play, etc. Players become less fluid and have worse timing.

 

[B.A.M.]

Im pretty sure tons of top players believe he should be banned. However a lot of them think its so late in the game's life to do so. I do believe that could be remedied by a better stage list. BS stages like RC shouldnt even exist. Theres too many stages in the stage list that make this top character into an easy win character.

 

[John12346]

It's never too late to do anything.

And keep in mind, before MLG happened, people were preaching that it was too early. Afterwards, they started saying it was too late.

-___ -;

 

[Steam]

:/...Meta Knight IS muchmuchmuch stronger at mid level play than top level... at least IMO

but he's still kinda banworthy. he doesn't NEEEEED to be gone... but the metagame would be sooooo much healthier without him