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Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

Tin Man

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No. Wolf vs Mk is close to even. Wolf is heavy. Wolf has a projectile. His recovery isn't as linear/predictable as Fox/Falco. He has an Fsmash or Dacus out of aerial release on Mk. Mk is slow in the air and Wolf kinda ends destroys an Mk in the air.

Wolf is as good or better then Fox/Falco vs Mk.

If Mk does ONE Dsmash on Wolf's shield then that's a free 14%? (From Fsmash) or a Dsmash from Wolf, which kills.

Not to mention Wolf has shine, which gives him ability to land without eating Mk's Fsmash/Dsmash/GSL grounded because of it's invincibility frames. It keeps him safe.

In conclusion, Wolf has safe landing options, a projectile, he is heavy, his recovery is hard to gimp/not linear/he can scar through stages, and he is very mobile. He also has very good kill moves like Fair/Bair/Dsmash when Mk is around 110-130% (Range he dies). Wolf won't die till 180's.
Well Falco's Chain grab is a vital tool. He can catch up even when he loses a stock 1st. The amount of guaranteed damage coming from a grab is quite beneficial. Falco's illusion is a great on stage tool vs MK. Falco also has the best lasers of the spacies. It travels the furthest, can shot 2 in the air, auto cancels if timed well. Has exceptional uses (look at Rain). I can understand why the BBR listed MK to be even with Falco.

Diddy, Falco, and Pikachu seem to have the easiest time out of any character dealing and punishing, and preventing the tornado (though thats a very high level description of the 3 matchups).
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
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if both players are perfect, snake and mk are even.

but in reality, no player is perfect.

when mk makes a (bad) mistake, he will typically take ~20%. when snake makes a mistake, he takes ~100% or loses a stock.

snake vs mk is not even close to even.
 

etecoon

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diddy and fox are really close to even with MK

MK pisses on marth

snake I change my mind on a lot, I honestly don't know what to think

falco is solidly in MK's favor but not as much as marth
 

Tin Man

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Marth and MK if played perfectly are quite impossible. Their upB's OoS are quite a remarkable counter option. Not to mention Marth has a frame 1 counter.

But the playing perfectly argument is rather useless in and of itself.
 

Judo777

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Until I see top level MK's studying the Fox and Pika MU as hard as all of the top level players study the MK MU I cannot be convinced its even.

I mean EVERYONE at even mid levels of play KNOWS the MK MU pretty in and out (at least the mentality if not the practice). I'd still be willing to wager hes probably the most picked cpu taken into training mode because EVERYONE is ALWAYS practicing that MU.

Until I see MK players spending even a fraction of the amount of time the top level Pika and Foxes have spent on MK I won't buy it.

I'm telling you guys right now Snake MK is not even. Snake has to control the match the entire time in order to win which is a handicap MK doesn't share.

At the GW statement. If you are consistently reading your opponent with tech chases, you are by totally outplaying them by alot. Ideally (obviously depending on how many individual options cover each of theirs, I'll guess GW can cover everything with 4 maneuvers. I'm also counting that there are eight options out of a GW dthrow.) i think he should be getting a punish every 4th dthrow which isn't that likely. I might have screwed up that probability but its pretty complex. Anyway if you are tech chasing them consistently they are being outplayed by a decent amount.
 

King~

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what about seibrik? im sure hes spent time studying the pika MU

and him and ESAM go pretty even, slightly in ESAMs favor as of late
 

~ Gheb ~

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Diddy, Falco, and Pikachu seem to have the easiest time out of any character dealing and punishing, and preventing the tornado (though thats a very high level description of the 3 matchups).
I know this is gonna sound biased but Wolf is soooooooooooooo up there and Fox looks really strong vs Tornado as well.

Until I see top level MK's studying the Fox and Pika MU as hard as all of the top level players study the MK MU I cannot be convinced its even.
Well if it helps you ... both MK and Fox have been consistent tourney threats in Japan ever since 2008. It's not like they don't know how to play that match-up. Fox still wins most of the time [even when the MK is evidently played by a better player].
And how many opportunities did Tyrant get to learn the Fox match-up against TKD just to lose to Zeton anyway?

The MK players that lose to Fox *are* the one's that know the match-up ... those that lose to him are just lucky not to have played a competent Fox.

:059:
 

Supreme Dirt

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Tornado is just one part of MK's game.

That'd be like me saying Ganondorf is really good against Link because he's good against his projectile game. Link has other things making it a slight advantage. MK has other things making it a slight advantage. Fox gets **** on offstage. And North American Metaknights are above the level of Japanese Metaknights.
 

B.A.M.

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Tyrant practices against Fox dude. he plays Fox himself, so iono where this is coming from that Metas dont practice the match up. Even for Falco, you have to consider that Tyrant plays the match up and plays Falco himself. And lets be honest; until the advent of Shugo, no Falco was even remotely close to Larry's level. Even now a lot of people dont know to what extent why Falco is so good. they just say laser, chain grab, and phantasm.

They disregard uair frame trap which like one of the most important things for falco. His bair frame traps, his jab, his double jab cancel that even Meta cant do anything about if canceled properly ( a lot of character cant actually). The fact he has so many ways to string back into his frame traps is amazing. Not saying that Falco just craps on MK or something. Im just tired of people babbling like Falco isnt all that good, when all they have to show for it is crappy Falco practice.

Top MKs do try to learn match ups. We had Neo (back in the day),ESAM, Larry, TKD, ADHD, Razor, Gnes etc. that used to slaughter like any MK. Granted they are still doing well vs MKs, however Mks have improved in those match ups because they obviously put in the effort. Most top MKs play other characters too, so its not like theyre not aware of what a character can do. They just chose to go MK cuz thats their best character for the most part.

And Judo I definitely disagree. I think a lot of community still doesnt know enough about the MK match up. People are still getting double dsmashed. Ppl still dont realize they get free hits when a Meta does a reverse SL recovery. Ppl still act like SL is invincible in the air. People still dont take into account how to beat Dair camping. So if you are speaking in that regard i think its straight bs.

MK is just well developed, in contrast with a lot of characters. Even the top characters, like Snake, Diddy, and Falco. Hell Falco was straight up just DEHF for the majority of Brawl lifespan so far. I think that BBR is has been reasonable with these match ups.

I also believe that match ups such as Fox, Diddy, and Pika will become more "even" as more top players pick up these characters. Unfortunately, because for a time people had this invincible complex towards MK, a lot of top players just stuck with him. And to be honest, it doesnt matter if these characters match ups are deemed even because the top MKs probably wont switch to another character after putting so much into MK. Its up to the community itself to get better, especially in these match ups so that more people will pick up those characters ( i mean right now who DOESNT want to main a character that goes even with MK and isnt MK) and the metagame as a whole for the characters will grow.

Thats how I feel. I mean just take a look at the MK boards. Theres so much info there, and top players are helping other MKs with strats all the time. Compare that to other boards, where you have really one person who truly knows what theyre talking about. MK is definitely the best overall. I think people need to finally understand that the advancement of MKs is a huge factor as well. Especially when most top MKs play top level with other characters; which means they can share those strats with other top MKs and vice versa.

Its like in Marvel, you gotta build up your Anti- Sentinel technology otherwise Sentinel looks like the most broken thing alive, WHICH HE ISNT. MKs have been building anti- insert character- technology for years. Compare that with one top other character main building Anti-MK technology; by himself. Especially when a lot of punishes tend to be character specific in this game, which somewhat limits other players joint efforts.
 

Chuee

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if you disagree, then you're either a bad player, or an idiot.

espc if you're not even going to defend your remark.
lmao
All I need to say is go watch Razer vs any top MK and show me the part where he takes 100% or loses his stock every time he makes a mistake.
 

B.A.M.

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lmao
All I need to say is go watch Razer vs any top MK and show me the part where he takes 100% or loses his stock every time he makes a mistake.

Seriously. Iono what hes babbling about. And lets just forget the fact that Snake virtually need to hit you on like 4-5 occasions to take a stock in that match up. Or the fact that properly placed nades make it extremely difficult for MK to get in. And if he doesnt, then snake is just blowin him up with nade hits doing 4% and explosions doing 15%. Good MKs will probably put on an avg of 40-60% a juggle realistically. Take in the account that snake lives up to 150+, and that sounds close to even to me. I mean yeah MK has tricks that if the snake falls for it then hes could get gimped or juggled for like 80. But snake has that too. Its called dthrow. and at the edge that ish is no trick. its like guaranteed 50%. See how this argument goes? Thats just dumb theorycrafting, heck mine sounds more legitimate than yours and its still dumb. Crappy Snakes vs MK get taken to a 100% or lose a stock. We are talking about the zenith of brawl play here, not some wifi scrubs.

You make it sound like MK absolutely destroys snake.
 

Laem

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Japan is still better at fighting Fox than NA I'm sorry but realize when you're outmatched.
Same goes for Oli, and prolly others as well.

Trying to determine average % given per juggle doesn't really seem too realistic to me either. Esp. when uairs do 5% while nairs do 15% and which one lands is fairly dependant on the snake's choice of options.
Not to mention that snake might not take any damage at all depending on spacing..
 

Tin Man

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Tornado is just one part of MK's game.

That'd be like me saying Ganondorf is really good against Link because he's good against his projectile game. Link has other things making it a slight advantage. MK has other things making it a slight advantage. Fox gets **** on offstage. And North American Metaknights are above the level of Japanese Metaknights.
I said its a hight level description of the matchup >_>

Not against Fox.

:059:
Japan doesn't have a lot of the MK counter picks legal in their stage list. FD/SV/BF and thats it. This does limit MK's ability to succeed vs Fox.
 

M@v

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I believe that an MK that is a master at an MU can pretty much dominate as long as he has the necessary skill. Many MKs just choose poorer options.
Hit the nail on the head. Only a few mks can play at that level in most MUs thankfully.
 

EpixAura

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I lol every time I hear someone say people need to practice the MK MU more. MK has been number 1 throughout 90% of Brawl's lifespan, and you think people have neglected to learn to deal with him? The MK MU is the most well known in the game. If the character has trouble against MK, it's probably not because he doesn't know the MU. It's because it's MK's favor.
But I still think the Diddy:MK MU could be Diddy's favor on neutrals. Diddy is invincible, especially with two bananas. M2K said so himself, therefore, it is FACT.
 

John12346

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Knowing the matchup doesn't necessitate victory.

And just speaking from a statistical standpoint, if MK has as many even/disadvantageous MUs as you guys are claiming, why is it he's still the most successful character in the game by a huge margin?

I think you guys are mistaking "My character doesn't get ***** by MK as hard as your character," for "My character has an even/advantageous MU against MK."
 

John12346

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I'd rather not include Nationals from 2010, because they're kind of old news, but I'll make an exception for MLG, because that was kind of important. Anyway, when you factor in MLG to all National Tournies that occurred in 2011...

Total for all National Tournies in 2011 and MLG: 26 MKs in 64 available Top 8 spots, for a total of 40.63%.

Compare that to Snake, who has only 11 placings in the 64 available Top 8 spots, for a total 17.19%. And it only gets worse as you move further down the tier list.

Now, back to my main point. If people have learned the MK MU as much as you all are claiming they have, and there are these magical counters/even MUs to MK, why are these statistics as bad as they are? At the highest levels of play, no less?
 

Judo777

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I find it funny how people don't understand the importance of only learning MU's by playing others also.

Lets say someone else and myself play each other all the time. We will say that I play someone like Snake and my friend plays MK. Snake doesn't get decimated by MK but i think he loses. Assuming we are both not new to the game if we play each other and I consistently win its an obvious indication that I am the better player at the moment. Now if I am the ONLY Snake that my friend ever plays do you think he will surpass me anytime soon? Chances are he won't everytime he plays me and learns the MU, I also learn the MU for MK and get better. We are getting better at the MU at the same rate (this is of course ideally). If he were to surpass me overtime I feel that would be an indication in the MU slanting in his favor.

Same goes with ESAM. ESAM is the ONLY top level pikachu Seibrek really plays. Every single time Seibrek plays ESAM and gets better at the MU, ESAM gets better at the MK MU too (he probably learned a good majority of the MU from Seibrek). Combine that with the fact that ESAM has probably played tons and tons of good MK's in tournament, ESAM is always getting smarter at the MU and learning it from different angles (as each MK plays different). I think its a very safe assumption to say that ESAM has played the Pika MK MU quite a bit more than Seibrek has and therefore he probably knows it better.

Tyrant may spend a lot of time studying the Fox MU. But I bet he didn't study the Fox MU like crazy when he was first learning the game. I bet when TKD was first learning the game he was studying the MK MU like most all of us have. I bet TKD still studies that MU to this day. I bet TKD has a very very large gap in the amount of time he has spent playing against MK with Fox than Tyrant has against Fox with MK. Has Tyrant gone to (wherever he lives) to play Zeton or Trevant to learn the MU? Cause I know countless people who travel to go play top lvl MKs. I think the second best player where TKD is from plays MK. I bet they have played alot.

Until I see that I don't buy it.
 

LanceStern

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Now, back to my main point. If people have learned the MK MU as much as you all are claiming they have, and there are these magical counters/even MUs to MK, why are these statistics as bad as they are? At the highest levels of play, no less?
Because tons more people like to play MK so he has more tournament placings? I mean Yoshi/Sonic/Zelda&Shiek/Peach have worse matchups than a majority of top tiers, but you see them place a LOT MORE FREQUENTLY and consistently than say Wario or Dedede cause no-one really plays them.

Add to that the MKs are placing are arguably the best players in the world. So when they are 3 of the top 10 or whatever the statistic is, even matchup or not they are going to place well because they are simply the best. Just because people have learned a MU to the point of making it even doesn't mean they will always execute.

But again what you do see are the top of the characters I mentioned (Fox/Falco/Pikachu/Diddy/Snake/Olimar) absolutely decimating top level MKs and sometimes the top of the top. And in the matchups you see the MKs (who again know the matchup) limited or almost with little to no options to fight the character. Not just from pure matchup ignorance, but the matchup is even and they will get hurt immensely if they try and go about it certain ways.


You don't think Mew2King/Ally/Tyrant/Anti know the MK/Snake matchup? Or the MK/Falco match? Or MK/Diddy? Pikachu and Fox are rarer cases for sure, but the other three mentioned are common to a LOT of players, they aren't going in with a deficit in matchup knowledge and experience. They KNOW what they are doing and yet watch any videos and you'll see an EVEN matchup the entire time unless it's some weak stage like Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise.... and they fact they have to choose stages like that just ot have a fighting chance speaks even more to the statement that these matchups are even.

I mean watch these videos of high level players and tell me what MK is supposed to do to NOT get hurt. At the highest of levels... it's even. You only really see M2k, Ally and sometimes Tyrant winning these matchups and that's cause they are the best of the best and are gonna win regardless (like when Ally can just randomly switch to Marth or Wario and take names).
 

Asa

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MK has no even MUs.

He has MUs that are very close to even, but there is always something. Marth vs. MK imo is completely even onstage. But then Marth ends up offstage and MK ****s all over him. And MK's CPs are far more powerful against Marth than vice-versa.
Fox gets **** on offstage.
Falco gets **** on offstage.
There's other reasons for some characters, but MK always has at least one thing over another character that they don't make up for.
seems to be something with offstage game
 

John12346

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Because tons more people like to play MK so he has more tournament placings? I mean Yoshi/Sonic/Zelda&Shiek/Peach have worse matchups than a majority of top tiers, but you see them place a LOT MORE FREQUENTLY and consistently than say Wario or Dedede cause no-one really plays them.
This statement doesn't work. Meta-Knight has been statistically proven to have the highest success:usage ratio out of all of the characters in the game.

Add to that the MKs are placing are arguably the best players in the world. So when they are 3 of the top 10 or whatever the statistic is, even matchup or not they are going to place well because they are simply the best. Just because people have learned a MU to the point of making it even doesn't mean they will always execute.
Okay, I did the research. Here you go.

Number of DIFFERENT players for each character who appeared in any Top 8 of any 2011 National or MLG(AKA even if M2k appeared in Top 8 of all of the tournies, he'd still only be adding 1 to the MK statistic)

MK: 13
Snake: 4
Marth: 4
ICs: 3
Diddy: 3
Olimar: 2
Falco: 2
Sonic: 2
Lucario: 1
Dedede: 1
Toon Link: 1
Zamus: 1
Luigi: 1
Pikachu: 1
Sheik: 1
GaW: 1
DK: 1

13 different Meta-Knight users being successful, while we have a few sparse Snakes placing a ****load of different times? Yeah okay.

But again what you do see are the top of the characters I mentioned (Fox/Falco/Pikachu/Diddy/Snake/Olimar) absolutely decimating top level MKs and sometimes the top of the top. And in the matchups you see the MKs (who again know the matchup) limited or almost with little to no options to fight the character. Not just from pure matchup ignorance, but the matchup is even and they will get hurt immensely if they try and go about it certain ways.
Show video evidence of such top level MKs getting dominated by these characters that allegedly beat or go even with him. Oh, and while you're at it, why not show some proof of MK's classic run-away tactics being beaten as well?

Oh wait, little to no evidence even exists for that. I wonder why...

You don't think Mew2King/Ally/Tyrant/Anti know the MK/Snake matchup? Or the MK/Falco match? Or MK/Diddy? Pikachu and Fox are rarer cases for sure, but the other three mentioned are common to a LOT of players, they aren't going in with a deficit in matchup knowledge and experience. They KNOW what they are doing and yet watch any videos and you'll see an EVEN matchup the entire time unless it's some weak stage like Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise.... and they fact they have to choose stages like that just ot have a fighting chance speaks even more to the statement that these matchups are even.
LMAO

MK has to go to Brinstar/RC/Frigate just to stand a fighting chance? :awesome:

Refer to the previous point. Video evidence me.

I mean watch these videos of high level players and tell me what MK is supposed to do to NOT get hurt. At the highest of levels... it's even. You only really see M2k, Ally and sometimes Tyrant winning these matchups and that's cause they are the best of the best and are gonna win regardless (like when Ally can just randomly switch to Marth or Wario and take names).
Refer to that handy little chart I posted earlier in this post.

You know what it says, loud and clear? There are tons of successful MKs, and very few successful Falcos/Foxes/Pikachus/etc... If we're lucky, we see a few SUCCESSFUL players for any given character. It's these successful players that are just barely able to squeak by with victories over MKs because they play the matchup at the maximum possible efficiency, while the MK isn't completely familiar with the MU.

If you're going to say that last statement is wrong, I expect appropriate proof.
 

Laem

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I watched the new sets of TKD Tyrant and honestly, that MU doesn't look close to even AT ALL xd
 

Omni

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I watched the new sets of TKD Tyrant and honestly, that MU doesn't look close to even AT ALL xd
Looking at a set or two doesn't come close to determining a MU.

If that were the case people would say Fox beats MK based on TKD's past performance in the WC.
 

DMG

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This thread LOL

Lemme just say 2 things so I can save you some time:

Wario doesn't go even with MK. I get tired of that **** cause it's not true. Wario goes even with MK if you don't know the matchup extensively. Same with Fox and G&W IMO. Diddy, Falco, IC's, and Pika probably have the best realistic shot at going even assuming both people know the MU. Shut the hell up about Wolf. You know who cares about Wolf? No one.

I understand that people want MK to have an even matchup, and top players do good all the time with other characters against MK players, but if you want a truthful list of who goes dead even or even would be likely to go even with MK you are gonna have to weed out the obvious crap.
 

Vex Kasrani

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This thread LOL

Lemme just say 2 things so I can save you some time:

Wario doesn't go even with MK. I get tired of that **** cause it's not true. Wario goes even with MK if you don't know the matchup extensively. Same with Fox and G&W IMO. Diddy, Falco, IC's, and Pika probably have the best realistic shot at going even assuming both people know the MU. Shut the hell up about Wolf. You know who cares about Wolf? No one.

I understand that people want MK to have an even matchup, and top players do good all the time with other characters against MK players, but if you want a truthful list of who goes dead even or even would be likely to go even with MK you are gonna have to weed out the obvious crap.
 

DMG

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And that's why your sig is your name with a ****** Yoshi

ASKLDJ AKLDJALKJDSIAJHDIU9WHT89W

Jk, but still. Wolf doesn't go even, go home be a family man.
 
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