Metaknights' Even matchups? Open discussion

[LanceStern]

After thinking about Metaknight's placement on the tier list and checking out some matches between the top characters of each (M2k, Anti, Ally, Havok, Tyrant) vs (ADHD, Gnes, TKD, Esam, Dehf, Rich Brown). I want to bring up the subject of matchups that are 50/50, even, equal etc.

Snake
Falco
Diddy
Fox
Pikachu

Honorable "Slight Advantage" Matchup (55/45): Olimar

I think these are even matchups for Metaknight. He has a hard time catching some of them, KOing others, and even approaching some of them. If he does get a chance to combat them one-on-one, he has just as much of a probability of getting beat up as the other opponent unless they are both in the air. Some of these characters can KO Metaknight easier (i.e. at lower percentages) than Metaknight, and others have no problem thanks to "advances" in the Metagame.

Falco is hard even for metaknight to approach. Falco can laser camp and phantasm away (expecting tornado to intercept) the entire match. When metaknight does appraoch, Falco can and will chain grab him or out box him. Metaknights have to be really smart. And for his easiest KO option, grab release -> BDACUS for the KO. (See: DEHF vs M2k, Tyrant, Havok, Tearbear).

Fox can outrun, camp, and juggle Metaknight forever. His KO option (upsmash) is ridiculous, and downsmash isn't too shabby. (See: TKD vs. Tyrant, Havok, Tearbear)

Snake has always seemed even. MK can't KO him unless he shuttle loops him or Snake is at > 150%. Snake can rack damage with jabs, tilts, grenades and KO metaknight at 90%. (See: Ally/Razer vs. Metaknights)

Diddy's metagame vs. MK was invented by ADHD (imo). I call it the ADHD defense. Banana in front, banana in hand, peanut gun until Metaknight approaches. Diddy can't "easily" KO metaknight, but it's the same way... it's hard for metaknight to approach. (See: ADHD/Gnes vs. M2k/Havok/Atomsk/Anti *although Anti wrecks most diddies*)

Pikachu is different than the others on the list because his fight is in the air versus Metaknight. Chain grabs, juggling, tons of frame traps... it's a very violent fight. Pikachu has the hardest time out of all of these characters in KOing Metaknight, but his option is still pretty strong in thunder or OOS nair.


I think in a way I am oversimplifying some, and there's still the fact that this is an "Even" matchup cause Metaknight is still metaknight. But I think we've gotten past the point in time where it's a guaranteed win because it's Metaknight and he shud b banned!11!

Any thoughts? Disagreements? Additions?

 

[Judo777]

After thinking about Metaknight's placement on the tier list and checking out some matches between the top characters of each (M2k, Anti, Ally, Havok, Tyrant) vs (ADHD, Gnes, TKD, Esam, Dehf, Rich Brown). I want to bring up the subject of matchups that are 50/50, even, equal etc.

Snake
Falco
Diddy
Fox
Pikachu

Honorable "Slight Advantage" Matchup (55/45): Olimar

I think these are even matchups for Metaknight. He has a hard time catching some of them, KOing others, and even approaching some of them. If he does get a chance to combat them one-on-one, he has just as much of a probability of getting beat up as the other opponent unless they are both in the air. Some of these characters can KO Metaknight easier (i.e. at lower percentages) than Metaknight, and others have no problem thanks to "advances" in the Metagame.

Falco is hard even for metaknight to approach. Falco can laser camp and phantasm away (expecting tornado to intercept) the entire match. When metaknight does appraoch, Falco can and will chain grab him or out box him. Metaknights have to be really smart. And for his easiest KO option, grab release -> BDACUS for the KO. (See: DEHF vs M2k, Tyrant, Havok, Tearbear).

Fox can outrun, camp, and juggle Metaknight forever. His KO option (upsmash) is ridiculous, and downsmash isn't too shabby. (See: TKD vs. Tyrant, Havok, Tearbear)

Snake has always seemed even. MK can't KO him unless he shuttle loops him or Snake is at > 150%. Snake can rack damage with jabs, tilts, grenades and KO metaknight at 90%. (See: Ally/Razer vs. Metaknights)

Diddy's metagame vs. MK was invented by ADHD (imo). I call it the ADHD defense. Banana in front, banana in hand, peanut gun until Metaknight approaches. Diddy can't "easily" KO metaknight, but it's the same way... it's hard for metaknight to approach. (See: ADHD/Gnes vs. M2k/Havok/Atomsk/Anti *although Anti wrecks most diddies*)

Pikachu is different than the others on the list because his fight is in the air versus Metaknight. Chain grabs, juggling, tons of frame traps... it's a very violent fight. Pikachu has the hardest time out of all of these characters in KOing Metaknight, but his option is still pretty strong in thunder or OOS nair.


I think in a way I am oversimplifying some, and there's still the fact that this is an "Even" matchup cause Metaknight is still metaknight. But I think we've gotten past the point in time where it's a guaranteed win because it's Metaknight and he shud b banned!11!

Any thoughts? Disagreements? Additions?

Snake is definitely not even for MK. MK can combat Snake decently on the ground. Most importantly tho when MK gets Snake off the ground and into the air Snakes options become extremely narrow and can be shut down by MK through a number of method.

Olimar is also not even vs MK simply because while olimar is good at keeping MK out, offstage like snake he is pretty useless. But even worse than Snake is that up close olimar has like NO options. Olimar gets ***** by jabs and MK has ftilt and dtilt which are better than jabs.

Pika i don't think is very easy to identify because there is one top level pika that obviously know the MK MU like its his job. Meanwhile the only way MK's can learn the MU is by playing ESAM so ESAM is always ahead of them in MU knowledge.

Falco has IMO the best evidence for an even MU as far as what you stated because Falco can keep away from MK pretty well AND when MK does get close Falcos close game is pretty top notch. I still don't think its even due to how badly Falco gets hurt while attempting to recover but he is IMO the closest MU to even of any character.

Fox is in the same boat as pika. Only one top Fox who btw is also probably a top MK lol. I feel that TKD might just be alot better than most of the people he plays I could be wrong. Hard to say.

I feel Diddy's biggest bane to MK is that MK isn't used to fighting people with as many options as he has. Diddy has so many options in every situation that are pretty safe just like MK. I feel like while diddy has great tools at combating MK on the ground and near the stage stringing bananas into aerials MK still wins based simply off of how bad MK can **** diddy if diddy loses his bananas and again when he is offstage against MK.

 

[Seagull Joe]

You forgot Wolf who does arguably better then Falco/Fox vs Mk...

 

[Exceladon City]

The only other Fox main(s) that I know of that have considerably good knowledge of the MK MU is Zeton and that's because he's kinda stuck in a Bermuda Triangle of MK mains.

 

[Chuee]

The only other Fox main(s) that I know of that have considerably good knowledge of the MK MU is Zeton and that's because he's kinda stuck in a Bermuda Triangle of MK mains.

Trevonte and Nakat both have a lot of experience in the MU and Yui in Japan does too.

 

[LanceStern]

Snake is definitely not even for MK. MK can combat Snake decently on the ground. Most importantly tho when MK gets Snake off the ground and into the air Snakes options become extremely narrow and can be shut down by MK through a number of method.

The problem with that is any MKs you see versus top Snakes DON'T shut snakes down in the air (except Mew2King). Snakes get down for some reason. But I have seen the bane that is a MK vs. Snake, you just don't see them do it.

Olimar is also not even vs MK simply because while olimar is good at keeping MK out, offstage like snake he is pretty useless. But even worse than Snake is that up close olimar has like NO options. Olimar gets ***** by jabs and MK has ftilt and dtilt which are better than jabs.

Well yea I put him at 55/45. It seems that Olimar is useless off stage, but Brood and Rich Brown show that they CAN get back on stage..even if they are useless. The fact that they are beating top metaknights with such a "glaring" weakness, and sometimes easily beating MKs that KNOW the matchup talks a lot about it. But still it's 55/45 MK favor.

Pika i don't think is very easy to identify because there is one top level pika that obviously know the MK MU like its his job. Meanwhile the only way MK's can learn the MU is by playing ESAM so ESAM is always ahead of them in MU knowledge.

That's true... it honestly might be best to ask M2k/Seibrik/Esam and Anther.

Fox is in the same boat as pika. Only one top Fox who btw is also probably a top MK lol. I feel that TKD might just be alot better than most of the people he plays I could be wrong. Hard to say.

True...

 

[Exceladon City]

Trevonte and Nakat both have a lot of experience in the MU and Yui in Japan does too.

Whoops. Forgot about those guys.

 

[AlphaZealot]

If MK knows how to fight Diddy MK potentially crushes the MU. The problem is campy MK (not planking) loses pretty solidly to Diddy because it allows Diddy to get setup. Aggro MK can pretty well stomp Diddy, but most MK's aren't use to playing aggro vs a character with so many options.

 

[san.]

I believe that an MK that is a master at an MU can pretty much dominate as long as he has the necessary skill. Many MKs just choose poorer options.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I don't think snake or diddy are anywhere near even when played well. Olimar, Fox, and Falco are closer to the mark. Wolf? I thought he got curb-stomped by MKs, lol.

 

[choknater]

what about ice climbers now? does metaknight beat them badly?

 

[BluB]

Falco is hard even for metaknight to approach. Falco can laser camp and phantasm away (expecting tornado to intercept) the entire match. When metaknight does appraoch, Falco can and will chain grab him or out box him. Metaknights have to be really smart. And for his easiest KO option, grab release -> BDACUS for the KO. (See: DEHF vs M2k, Tyrant, Havok, Tearbear).

Falco can't force an air release on meta knight.

 

[deepseadiva]

You forgot Wolf who does arguably better then Falco/Fox vs Mk...

Listen to this man.

Also, we can't forget Peach!

Oh and Sonic.

And I swear if no one mentions Ness.

Oh and Yoshi!

 

[Tarmogoyf]

what about ice climbers now? does metaknight beat them badly?

Only as badly as Falco, and less than snake lol

If Falco is even with MK, so are ICs

nobody is even with him though

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't think snake or diddy are anywhere near even when played well. Olimar, Fox, and Falco are closer to the mark. Wolf? I thought he got curb-stomped by MKs, lol.

No. Wolf vs Mk is close to even. Wolf is heavy. Wolf has a projectile. His recovery isn't as linear/predictable as Fox/Falco. He has an Fsmash or Dacus out of aerial release on Mk. Mk is slow in the air and Wolf kinda ends destroys an Mk in the air.

Wolf is as good or better then Fox/Falco vs Mk.

If Mk does ONE Dsmash on Wolf's shield then that's a free 14%? (From Fsmash) or a Dsmash from Wolf, which kills.

Not to mention Wolf has shine, which gives him ability to land without eating Mk's Fsmash/Dsmash/GSL grounded because of it's invincibility frames. It keeps him safe.

In conclusion, Wolf has safe landing options, a projectile, he is heavy, his recovery is hard to gimp/not linear/he can scar through stages, and he is very mobile. He also has very good kill moves like Fair/Bair/Dsmash when Mk is around 110-130% (Range he dies). Wolf won't die till 180's.

 

[Vinnie]

: is 45:55 ~ 5:5.

 

[napZzz]

lmao snake vs. mk is over rated its at least a 6/4 in mk's favor, and if you dont understand why then you dont know much about either characters/this game period

 

[etecoon]

this topic makes my head hurt and I hate all of you

 

[EpixAura]

I think MK only has two truly even MUs: Himself, and Diddy.
Against Falco, since MK can ban FD, and BF is slightly MK's favor IMO, the only time it's even is Smashville. MK ***** him on couterpicks. Anyway, since MK obviously has an advantage on couterpicks, unless the MU on SV/BF is in Falco's favor, this is not even.
Snake... he can get juggled hella easy. He has very few ways of landing, and his air game is essentially nonexistant. Once MK gets started, Snake just can't get away.
Olimar... gimpable. Gimps are pretty rare in Brawl, but MK's one of the best at it, and Olimar gets gimped pretty easily. Beyond camping, he has absolutely nothing on MK.
Fox is f**king Fox. The Fox boards put the MU as even FOREVER ago, and there aren't enough Fox mains to prove or disprove it.
Pikachu is about the same. Dair camping works way too well vs him.
Wario, while he can run around dodging nados and aerials all day with his epic aerial moving speed, MK's long range and fast attacks keep Wario at bay just as well, and he has enough jumps to avoid Wario's zoning or whatever the hell they're calling it these days, but MK gets more overall reward for each hit.

Diddy is actually good vs him because if people can master the infinite, Diddy should actually have the upper hand on neutrals. He still loses on CPs though, so the MU is even at best.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You guys are all idiots. <3 Etecoon.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Fox is the only character I would say is even atm. GaW maybe too I dunno.

 

[Ishiey]

I believe that an MK that is a master at an MU can pretty much dominate as long as he has the necessary skill. Many MKs just choose poorer options.

Am I the only other person that thinks this, or did everyone else accidentally skip over San's post?

 

[LanceStern]

Nah I don't think that.

MKs that are masters at the Falco matchup don't dominate. MKs "masters" at the Snake matchup don't dominate. MKs masters at the wario matchup don't dominate... Or Fox, or Pikachu etc.

 

[z00ted]

I hate this thread a lot.

I believe that an MK that is a master at an MU can pretty much dominate as long as he has the necessary skill. Many MKs just choose poorer options.

Everyone listen to san.

 

[Tagxy]

tbh its hard to take people serious when they use a character that gets owned by MK, and then try to convince people that everyone elses character gets owned by him too. It sounds either agenda driven or ignorant.

 

[san.]

Too bad, I don't have any agenda or anything like that. Just my opinion from matches I see/play.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Listen to this man.
Oh and Yoshi!

MK Vs Yoshi is -2/60:40
The closest to even characters can go with MK is usually stage dependant...
Assuming a Yoshi main actually won Game 1, it'd be 55:45 with MK on FD if he didn't ban that stage. Probably half the time MK mains would be like "Holy ****! 60:40 Yoshi wrecks us with Eggs, Chaingrab to USmash!"
Mostly because they aren't used to playing something that requires a little bit of thinking. As a matter of fact, We had a nice little conversation in the MK boards with the Yoshi Vs MK MU...

 

[Chuee]

lmao snake vs. mk is over rated its at least a 6/4 in mk's favor, and if you dont understand why then you dont know much about either characters/this game period

stop posting please

 

[Tagxy]

Too bad, I don't have any agenda or anything like that. Just my opinion from matches I see/play.

That sounded harsher towards your post than I meant it to, especially since you clearly stated it was your opinion. It was mostly directed towards the "silly smashers for having different opinions about characters I dont even use" group a.k.a. most people quoting it.

 

[Sunnysunny]

MK Vs Yoshi is -2/60:40

Oy slushy. He's trolling man. xD

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm well aware he was trolling, Just felt like pointing this out as an excuse to post. Cause the MK's were seriously considering Yoshi to be 55:45/-1

 

[BSP]

In regards to snake, it's been pretty clear that MK has been gaining the upper hand in the MU over time IMO.

 

[PG-13]

Falco is agreeable. He has his blaster to try to stop MK long range, and when MK does get close up, Falco has a few options.

Pikachu is pretty agreeable(one of my personal mains). Chain grabs, if you can grab MK, hurt him to the point of trying to combo him, and Pikachu has some finishing moves including the infamous Thunder to use when MK is vulnerable(a specific point in the air)

Snake? I don't know...

Diddy, the only thing that brings him close to MK is his bananas, but I'm still not sure if he is EVEN.

Fox has great speed and that devastating U-Smash. I don't know if he is a match, but he is still a good choice. He has other options, like yes, camping, and really experienced and smart fox players can take a hold of his Dair to combo MK.


Please Critique me, I'm still new to this place and need advice.

 

[B.A.M.]

how about you go read around your boards first before you start posting arbitrary information?


Falco/ Fox are pretty hard for MK. Falco aka Mr. Frame trap, has tons of options that even MK has trouble dealing with. lasers help him approach and camp MK. He also has one of the best aerial frame traps in the game with uair as well as his amazing bair coupled with ridiculous vertical aerial movement that aids him in combating aerial borne MKs. His frame data close range is absurd and his jab (especially is double jab) ***** even MK. The only 2 things that hold falco back are his recovering options thanks to RCO lag and combating planking imo. My boy Larry dominates though and now that we have more solid falco's coming up, ppl are starting to see that Falco swag.

Fox has his own share of frame traps, fast as hell. Racks up damage like nobody's business. He can also force approach with his lasers, change his landing timings up. While he doesnt have a chain grab like falco he definitely has a better recovery. He can also read AD from nearly half of BF for a kill via usmash. Fox can just punish MK so well, and unlike falco he kill ridiculously early with a fairly simple read. He can also refresh quite easily which allows him to get the damage, utility, and KO power out of anything. I wish TKD would go to nationals; watching him play the other day was too good.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Metaknight diddy is probably 6-4 or 55-45 but it is not even.

marth metaknight is probably 45-55 on neutrals, admitedly though theres a lot more metagame developed at fighitng metaknight then there is at fighting marth.

Falco fox and snake are arguably even, snake probably loses slightly though. A lot of people are just complete idiots with how they recover as snake against metaknight though, and with proper DI snake should be living to over 150 every time (unless he gets gimped, which admitedly is more likely to happen at lower percents)

unlike other characters snake taking 30 damage when he gets hit isn't nearly as bad LOL/

The thing is though the metaknight match up is incredibly more complex than many other match ups in this game, and a lot of people still get ***** by stupid things like not DIing MKs D smash up or DIing SL up ect.

Ics mk will not be even in anyway as long as the game has a counterpicking system.

I don't have an opinion about MK pika, i don't know enough about the MU

 

[A2ZOMG]

: is 45:55 ~ 5:5.

This.

I've been thinking that a G&W player who techchases a MK player really consistently probably has the upper hand in the matchup imo. Like if G&W is getting techchase punishes from 2/3s of his grabs, then he probably is winning. But that's hard to do in normal situations since it requires reads, so slight adv MK under most circumstances. Either way it cannot be understated how good techchasing is for G&W in that matchup (D-air or Smashes if they tech in place. F-air or SOMETIMES D-tilt on techroll, and actually G&W can in fact D-air MK out of his techroll). He's also one of few characters who can both edgeguard and juggle MK relatively safely, just the matchup really hinges on how much grab reward he gets, and he definitely doesn't get enough of it from doing his U/B/F throws most of the time.

 

[Meru.]

No. Wolf vs Mk is close to even because I main him.

Blah blah blah

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The ever salty Peach mains

PS Wolf vs MK is close to even

 

[Chuee]

Close don't count.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

MK has no even MUs.

He has MUs that are very close to even, but there is always something. Marth vs. MK imo is completely even onstage. But then Marth ends up offstage and MK ****s all over him. And MK's CPs are far more powerful against Marth than vice-versa.
Fox gets **** on offstage.
Falco gets **** on offstage.
There's other reasons for some characters, but MK always has at least one thing over another character that they don't make up for.