Metagame Minute, DI Part 4, Out Now! 12/13/2011 UPDATE!

[Conviction]

Peach won't die early anymore? :-/

 

[Flayl]

Peaches already knew this, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Tesh]

how long can ROB and Wario live doing this against common kill moves?

 

[GimR]

Well, I'm messing with it right now. It looks like this technique actually makes Diddy's recovery worst. Also, it looks like Diddy will die no matter what if he get's hit hard enough meaning his side-b doesn't cancel momentum and actually makes him die earlier if he's going a certain speed when hit

 

[Player-1]

How would this make his recovery worse? And yes, side-b doesn't cancel momentum enough after momentum cancelling so midair jump is better in most situations

 

[MK26]

if you try to use most recovery moves before hitstun ends youll get a boost in the direction youre moving

probably the most obvious to see with fox's shine...get hit moderately hard, cancel with shine asap, watch as fox pops up

same deal happens with most b-moves, making them worse than doing nothing for recovering

 

[Player-1]

Yeah I get that, but air dodge cancelled item toss should still work so you can midair jump faster.

 

[GimR]

Yeah I get that, but air dodge cancelled item toss should still work so you can midair jump faster.

When I did my testing side b was

 

[Player-1]

but I thought you just said side-b would increase the momentum of the knockback?

 

[GimR]

weird, when I did my side b test, it stopped momentum better then double jump aerial but, after a certain percent, the momentum was too strong and the side B actually increased momentum

 

[B.A.M.]

AD item toss is pretty good with Snake ( yeah im sure everyone knew that). How does it help his momentum cancel? Does it make him live even more ridiculously longer?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Interesting, I've recently been looking into this sort of stuff for Peach myself aswell

Considering that Peach is holding turnips more often than not, does this mean she can actually use her airdodge now? This seems like this can really help her defensive game.

It depends
If the opponent is point-blank-in-your-face (which is quite possible if they're looking to catch her out when she's going to airdodge) then the Turnip might get cancelled out anyway by the opponents attack

If they whiff the attack and get hit by the Turnip then that's potentially bad news for Peach since she's still got a load of essentially dead frames from the airdodge finishing (since the Z Drop occurs within frames 2-4) and she's probably just reduced the ending lag of whatever aerial the opponent whiffed due to how little hitstun the Turnip has in comparison

Watch the part with Peach getting out of Tornado - once the Turnip hits MK, Peach still has a load of dead frames from her airdodge ending so what's not stopping MK from just Uairing/Shuttle Looping her or setting up another Tornado?


Despite all this I still think that yea this helpful since if the Turnip does connect, at higher percents (which lets face it, Peach is probably going to have opponents in the high percents) the knockback from the Turnip could save her from getting caught up in an attack. Plus, it might throw the opponent off if they don't expect it or don't react well to it

Peach won't die early anymore? :-/

Define early

IIRC, there's something dodgy about Momentum Cancelling with throwing Turnips. This is different though. I'd be interested to see if it help her survivability

Peaches already knew this, I'm pretty sure.

Yup. No one really mentions is much though lol

 

[SlashTalon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsPDo26MZdo

This is a tool assisted match, but could someone explain how 0:53 is possible? (Ganon PS a Falcon bunch and ends up behind The Cap'n)

 

[C.J.]

In shield SDI

It's SDI... while you're in your shield.

 

[SlashTalon]

In shield SDI

It's SDI... while you're in your shield.

Mind elaborating on how you go about doing that button wise and how/why? R+Cstick? Does the distance traveled depend on the velocity/strength of the incoming attack?

Thank you in advance.

 

[C.J.]

It's the exact same as normal SDI, but, you're shielding.
So yeah, while you're shielding, and in shield hitlag, you hit the cstick, and you move, exactly as if it were normal SDI.

 

[GimR]

Episode 10 - RCO Lag Mechanics - 6/13/2011

 

[T-block]

Love the topic. Few corrections though (fairly sure, but not 100% on any of these, so someone correct me if I'm wrong):

Default landing lag is 2 frames for soft landing and 4 frames for a hard landing. So Bowser and DK's soft landings are effectively unaffected by RCO lag.

The aerial's landing lag doesn't completely override RCO lag. RCO will instead add lag frames to the aerial's landing (different for each aerial). If your character has an aerial with fast enough landing lag though, it can still end up being way faster than taking the normal landing lag frames.

 

[Conviction]

Episode 10 - RCO Lag Mechanics - 6/13/2011

Aiyyo that's pretty sexy. I'll make a response video to it haha.

Also send me some tags, so I can translate.

 

[GimR]

Love the topic. Few corrections though (fairly sure, but not 100% on any of these, so someone correct me if I'm wrong):

Default landing lag is 2 frames for soft landing and 4 frames for a hard landing. So Bowser and DK's soft landings are effectively unaffected by RCO lag.

The aerial's landing lag doesn't completely override RCO lag. RCO will instead add lag frames to the aerial's landing (different for each aerial). If your character has an aerial with fast enough landing lag though, it can still end up being way faster than taking the normal landing lag frames.

Yeah, I didn't want to leave out the 2 frame landing lag though cause people would probably ask why it wasn't there.

I don't think RCO lag adds anything to an aerial. How sure are you about that?

Aiyyo that's pretty sexy. I'll make a response video to it haha.

Also send me some tags, so I can translate.

alrighty

 

[Player-1]

so what's the difference in the triggering of a soft land and hard land?

 

[T-block]

Yeah, I didn't want to leave out the 2 frame landing lag though cause people would probably ask why it wasn't there.

I don't think RCO lag adds anything to an aerial. How sure are you about that?

alrighty

Do you have time to test right now? If not I'll turn on my Wii once I get home from work.

Find the normal number of landing lag frames for an aerial (I think it's very noticeable with Pikachu's b-air). Then see how many there are with RCO lag.

so what's the difference in the triggering of a soft land and hard land?

Hard land is a landing after fast falling.

 

[GimR]

Hard landing also happens after falling a certain height. I can't test right now

 

[Nidtendofreak]

How does hitstun from jabs affect RCO? Does it go Jab Hitstun -> Force Hard Landing -> RCO lag? Because it goes like that, Ike could have some very interesting set ups out of jab, considering how much hitstun he has on it...

 

[Zankoku]

Hard landing also happens after falling a certain height. I can't test right now

Seems to be any height beyond short-hop height

How does hitstun from jabs affect RCO? Does it go Jab Hitstun -> Force Hard Landing -> RCO lag? Because it goes like that, Ike could have some very interesting set ups out of jab, considering how much hitstun he has on it...

Yes, you have it correct.

 

[Xnpio]

@ GIMR & T-Block:

According to the link on the VGBC video page (the one that leads to K Prime's guide about RCO Lag):
---
Canceling the penalty with an aerial.
The blog says using an aerial as you land overrides the penalty which isn't completely true. You still get extra lag added to your aerial's landing lag. The amount of lag that gets added is about 35%-40% of the aerial's original landing lag. Since this a percentage increase, you really want to use your least laggiest move when you land for the safest and quickest landing.

Comparison of aerial landing lag to aerial landing lag with the penalty.

Pikachu
Nair 25F>34F
Fair 15F>21F
Bair 30F>41F
Uair 24F>33F
Dair 40F>55F

Pika's fair is the safest move as it is by far his fastest move and only adding 6 frames with the penalty. Pika's Dair with the penalty adds a massive 15 frames of lag adding up to almost a full second of lag when he lands with it. That's enough time for Ike/DDD to hit him with an fsmash. So be careful with what you land with. For some characters, sometimes it's best to just land with a soft landing instead of an aerial since it's always 15 frames.

---

Just saw your guys' questioning & plan to test, read this, and was pretty sure this was what you were looking for.

 

[Steam]

I thought RCO just took away IASA lol...

also lucario suffers from RCO if he runs into the stage the floor of the stage with his upB or if he lands on his feet after upBing (the perfect landing)... he'll suffer RCO the next time he lands.

 

[Sinister Slush]

So glad Yoshi doesn't suffer from this, Even though his UpB is different from most characters. Time to wait for next weeks episode!

 

[GimR]

I'm letting you guys know right now. I'm probably not gonna make an episode next week so I can make an MVC3 Video

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yes, you have it correct.

So in theory, Ike could get something like 14 frames of hitstun, and 30-35 frames of RCO, depending on the character...

Ehehehe... don't mess up against Ike.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was under the impression that a soft land was just any landing where you weren't at your maximum (normal) fall speed. You don't have to fastfall to accomplish that.

Also, jab -> attack frame traps, while useful, are limited if the opponent sees it coming, due to SDI upward on the jab. It's not guaranteed.

You know what you need to do a video on, GIMR? Basic SDI usefulness. So many things are made less effective by it if you know where to go.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Also, jab -> attack frame traps, while useful, are limited if the opponent sees it coming, due to SDI upward on the jab. It's not guaranteed.

Well in Ike's/other Combat Walkers' cases, that could very well set up a combat walk, with the RCO lag still waiting at the end, so they may not want to do that.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well in Ike's/other Combat Walkers' cases, that could very well set up a combat walk, with the RCO lag still waiting at the end, so they may not want to do that.

Then they should SDI up and toward the jabbing character. No real downside to it, since ideal SDI involves sliding between two directions repeatedly, anyway, and it stops a Combat Walk from doing much damage or being very effective in general, since holding the button down would get them punished.

Any player trying to get a huge punish from a jab -> something by abusing RCO and assuming the opponent won't SDI would probably F-Smash in the direction they jabbed, so they'd leave themselves wide open to an opponent's huge punish after they SDI past the jabber.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Turn around jab. >_>

Besides: if SDIing jabs was truly that easy, Ike would be in trouble. It just doesn't happen. There is also the fact you are risking a Utilt doing that.

Besides, we could always squeeze in two Jab 1s at the start to see what you're trying to do, then react accordingly. But enough theory craft chains.

 

[Tesh]

I'm surprised you left out that really important part about aerials getting extended landing lag. Its true right?

Also as far as shocking combos that come from this, DDD has a guaranteed Dthrow-Fsmash on Ganondorf if he grabs the ledge with his Up B and gets grabbed before he lands again. He has alot of others I've heard of as well.

Its really stupid that Kirby somehow has this even though he never goes helpless from his moves (cept special circumstances), but MK doesn't even though ALL of his B moves make him helpless. It would have been nice if ledge camping MKs had something to worry about when they finally come back on stage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Turn around jab. >_>

Besides: if SDIing jabs was truly that easy, Ike would be in trouble. It just doesn't happen. There is also the fact you are risking a Utilt doing that.

Besides, we could always squeeze in two Jab 1s at the start to see what you're trying to do, then react accordingly. But enough theory craft chains.

If you turn-around Jab, then you're not trying to maximize punishment on RCO lag, and you're getting hit by the person who doesn't SDI through you or letting them get away if they SDI up or up and away.

If you Jab1 twice, then you risk giving them enough time to SDI even further to a safer place, or getting punished by someone who manages to SDI behind you.

Most jabs work because a person cannot constantly slide their analog stick in a way that allows them to anticipate the jab, since those are dangerous inputs otherwise, but in a situation where they're recovering (say, with Falco's Forward-B), they have almost nothing to lose in trying to SDI when they can't do anything else to help themselves at that time.

I'm not saying that a jab is a bad way to take advantage of RCO lag, as it definitely creates pressure and has great potential for slamming the opponent with something afterward, but it merely creates a mix-up greatly in favor of the jabbing character; it doesn't lead to a guaranteed massive punish by any means.

 

[san.]

If you try to SDI behind Ike's jab, you can turnaround jab on reaction. SDIing up on Ike's jab1 allows for easy grab (standing grab has high vertical range), combat walk, or utilt. If we grab, we may be able to bthrow to usmash or walking ftilt depending on %, under tumble %s (~below 80-90)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you try to SDI behind Ike's jab, you can turnaround jab on reaction. SDIing up on Ike's jab1 allows for easy grab (standing grab has high vertical range), combat walk, or utilt. If we grab, we may be able to bthrow to usmash or walking ftilt depending on %, under tumble %s (~below 80-90)

I didn't know you could turnaround Jab on reaction while being able to Combat Walk with no problem otherwise. I'll take your word for it, though.

That said, what I gather is, "I can get a free jab -> grab (-> dash attack from B-Throw) as a result of this," which is nice, but not particularly nasty.

 

[PZ]

Question on today's video: What about the amount of RCO lag for pika if he uses qac or if you do a up b cancel with marth(you know on the edge) will he still have lag if so is it the same amount regurely?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I didn't know you could turnaround Jab on reaction while being able to Combat Walk with no problem otherwise. I'll take your word for it, though.

That said, what I gather is, "I can get a free jab -> grab (-> dash attack from B-Throw) as a result of this," which is nice, but not particularly nasty.

It's a nasty bit of damage, particularly considering you're facing Ike, and can send you at a bad angle off stage for more damage/gimp opportunities.

But this isn't related to RCO. What other kind of set ups do characters have? PT for example, since I'm quoting Reflex.