Metagame Minute, DI Part 4, Out Now! 12/13/2011 UPDATE!

[TheReflexWonder]

It's a nasty bit of damage, particularly considering you're facing Ike, and can send you at a bad angle off stage for more damage/gimp opportunities.

But this isn't related to RCO. What other kind of set ups do characters have? PT for example, since I'm quoting Reflex.

It's good damage, but, it isn't significantly different from landing a jab with Ike under normal circumstances if the opponent still has a mid-air jump at their disposal, other than the extra pressure of having to stay in the air, basically.

Uh...Because of SDI, Squirtle's jab doesn't do well at forcing it from the air, unfortunately. Ivysaur has a nice set-up, though--It's pretty easy to guide a N-Air into its more-or-less set knockback spike if you're just doing it to an opponent on-stage. Ivysaur gets decent-to-great frame advantage on this (anywhere from ~+5 to +16, depending on positioning) by itself due to its properties, but if an opponent has RCO lag, you would add the hard landing number to the regular frame advantage, meaning that you can combo it into pretty much anything, most notably U-Smash.

 

[san.]

I didn't know you could turnaround Jab on reaction while being able to Combat Walk with no problem otherwise. I'll take your word for it, though.

That said, what I gather is, "I can get a free jab -> grab (-> dash attack from B-Throw) as a result of this," which is nice, but not particularly nasty.

I barely combat walk more than one or two cycles because people can SDI. But it's as simple as letting go of A and turning around (after jab1). Lots of Ikes combat walk without thinking once they get it, since it's cool looking.

For Ike, it would probably be effective just to get more jabs in, and just make it a pain for them to even want to land with a mix of delayed jabs, combat walks, and manual jab cancels.

End with jab3 or a grab, since RCO lag provides more followups for bthrow(forced landing) or fthrow if you want to be risky. At >100% you can probably attempt the ftilt, until utilt becomes a viable killing option.


The jab thing isn't very applicable to anyone other than fox or falco, unless a character does a normal getup. Aerial pressure is much more potent, since the RCO lag covers any lag from a missed aerial. All Ike needs to do is prevent them from being able to land with an aerial.

Most good players already have their own tactics to abuse this gameplay mechanic against characters. The frame data was much appreciated, though.

 

[Tesh]

Question on today's video: What about the amount of RCO lag for pika if he uses qac or if you do a up b cancel with marth(you know on the edge) will he still have lag if so is it the same amount regurely?

I'm pretty sure once you reach a certain part of each move, you are guaranteed this penalty, even if you do some kind of ledge scar/lightstep.

 

[PZ]

I'm pretty sure once you reach a certain part of each move, you are guaranteed this penalty, even if you do some kind of ledge scar/lightstep.

O so no matter how you use the move it depends on the landing for how much rco lag you will experience no?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

O so no matter how you use the move it depends on the landing for how much rco lag you will experience no?

The only thing that changes it is by using an aerial A move. If I'm not mistaken, you can "save" RCO lag for your next landing by doing certain B moves while landing, but I'm not sure about that.

 

[GimR]

Refelx, the problem with what you're saying about the DI is that it would be really hard to React to the jab. (at least for Falco)

 

[Judo777]

Yea for the record I think it is simply using the move at all. I think every single character if they do their move and get hit out before grabbing the ledge they still get the lag. And yes wolf gets it even if he lightsteps.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Refelx, the problem with what you're saying about the DI is that it would be really hard to React to the jab. (at least for Falco)

I don't understand, though. The only time you're really going to catch a Falco on his RCO lag is if he tries to Phantasm on stage. He doesn't have to react to anything, he just has to ready the analog stick for SDI'ing during the instant he teleports.

 

[GimR]

Yeah, but a Falco player shouldn't be Forward Bing in a situation where the opponent can jab them. If the Falco knows the opponent could jab them if he tries to forward b at that moment, then he should just stay on the edge instead of forward-bing. Falcos should only be forward bing if they know their opponent won't react in time, if they know their opponent isn't waiting for it, or if the opponent is in the middle of another move like a short hop aerial or something like that, and you know you can punish him for doing it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, but a Falco player shouldn't be Forward Bing in a situation where the opponent can jab them. If the Falco knows the opponent could jab them if he tries to forward b at that moment, then he should just stay on the edge instead of forward-bing. Falcos should only be forward bing if they know their opponent won't react in time, if they know their opponent isn't waiting for it, or if the opponent is in the middle of another move like a short hop aerial or something like that, and you know you can punish him for doing it.

Falco players don't often have much of a choice. Because of Falco's bad horizontal aerial mobility and somewhat-situational aerials, he doesn't have many options when he grabs the ledge, so it's potentially quite dangerous no matter what he does.

 

[Matador]

Awesome, didn't know that many characters suffered from RCO lag...

 

[GimR]

alright so, I'm one of the people running the live stream at Cot5 this weekend. So... I'm not making a Metagame Minute. Sorry :/

 

[Conviction]

As Fox or Falco don't ever grounded Side B. You get RCO lag for some gay reason. Don't believe? Try it lol.

 

[Matt07]

Thanks for explaining/clarifying RCO Lag, I've always been highly confused about it in general.

And I didn't know it effected so many characters, wow...

 

[MK26]

As Fox or Falco don't ever grounded Side B. You get RCO lag for some gay reason. Don't believe? Try it lol.

kirby gets rco on a grounded hammer...

 

[Yikarur]

As Fox or Falco don't ever grounded Side B. You get RCO lag for some gay reason. Don't believe? Try it lol.

if you do a move like that and don't land with it you get the RCO lag.
like you can hit anyone of them out of their sideB and they will get the lag.

 

[GDX]

i think the next vid should be another SDI video like Falco, but obviously a different character

Ever since i watched that video i havn't died to a falco spike

 

[B.A.M.]

wheres the next vid?

 

[stingers]

where does the name rco lag come from? i cant figure out the acronym >.>

 

[MK26]

recovery carry-over

 

[stingers]

ohh lmao thanks /dumb

 

[GimR]

4th of July weekend so the new episode will be up tomorrow

 

[GimR]

Episode 11 - Snake's Taunt Edge Guard - 7/5/2011

Note: Sorry if this video seems rushed, it was. I(GimR) went through a couple ideas this week and decided that I wanted to flesh each of them out more before making them into an episode so I looked at my list of ideas last second and pulled this off of it. Hope you got a good laugh though

 

[B.A.M.]

That 2008 edgeguard. I used love doing this pahaha. Didn't know you could have out multiple boxes.

 

[stingers]

omg thats awesome. im going to make it my goal to implement this into my janky snake gameplay

 

[Laem]

Lmao can you like spam boxes by standing on that bf platform and continuously hit/gimp a character trying to recover XD? i could see that working vs like diddy kong. And for some reason this looks very solid vs marth, cuz with that horizontal knockback he won't ever get back :O
deff. something worth trying. Good shee mr. GimR!

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I shall be expecting WAR & False to start using this more often.

 

[Tesh]

Uh oh, snake has a gimp game, put him back above Diddy Kong now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Actually, there is something I want to address with this episode.

I was watching Billy and Kismet play friendlies. It was Snake vs. Meta Knight, I think, and it was on Lylat Cruise. Snake got the KO, taunted on the side of a platform, and slid off the platform before he did the "take the box off" animation. He was able to do whatever he wanted immediately after that.

I don't know if the box was active afterward, but it looked really interesting, and if the box fell off, that could totally be used to edgeguarding. I imagine it has to do with the moving stage, but, if not, it could actually be a useful edgeguarding tactic.

I believe Billy saved the replay. I'll see about getting it.

 

[John12346]

Just for the record, you can have out an infinite amount of boxes, to the point that the game freezes. You can get Snake's boxes stuck in specially built Custom Stages, so yeah, the game froze on me before any boxes disappeared.

Also, since Box beats transcendent priority, I guess we've found our true Meta-Knight counter!

 

[Spelt]

It doesn't really beat it.
They just don't interact...
I thought that was what transcendent was?

 

[GimR]

It doesn't really beat it.
They just don't interact...
I thought that was what transcendent was?

well that's why it beats it since the box has no hurtbox. It beats all of MK's moves besides Tornado, drill rush and glide attack

 

[Conviction]

GIMR, we got a Japanese team now LOL. So when you need tags done, either contact me, Auspher, Ripple, or enhid (whatever his name is)

 

[Flayl]

That was a neat episode.

 

[Player-1]

I was looking at this on the PS2 air transformation to see if anything happened with the box going up and I noticed that the box disappears right after snake takes it off. Also, it does get an air boost but only when it hits someone and then if it hit someone it took 2 bounces before it disappeared afterward.

 

[GimR]

yeah I went to PS1 today and I noticed once it falls a long distance it gets another bounce. weird.

 

[Judo777]

well that's why it beats it since the box has no hurtbox. It beats all of MK's moves besides Tornado, drill rush and glide attack

The box isn't transcendent right? It's just a hitbox so MK can't swat it cause his moves are transcendent.

 

[Tesh]

Isn't the box technically an item? But you can't z catch/airdodge catch it can you?

 

[Browny]

My brother landed the final KO in doubles grand finals in 2008 when it came to snake v snake, both high % on delfino. other snake was in water, stage transforms and takes off, box falls down and knocks snake out of his mid-air jump, he falls back in the water and his cypher couldnt get high enough once he finally managed to get out.

its legit

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...Please tell me you aren't talking about AVCon...