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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO
- Thread starter OverLade
- Start date
- Status
Sushi-Man
Smash Ace
lol. "MK" and "GAY" have had anal sex.Whats wrong with gayness?
We're in the MK matchup discussion thread.
Pertaining to this matchup, I haven't been able to play against Nick Riddle, but there should be some Riddle vs. Seibrik vids that should have some interesting data coming up.
Didn't Riddle beat Seibrik in a tournament recently? I didn't know Riddle was that good
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
OH GOD IT'S SO TERRIBLE WHY CAN'T I UNSEE IT AAAAAAAAHHHHH
I would say "<3 Inui" to show that this was a joke post but nobody likes Inui, so I'll just say that I respect him as a player.
Nick Riddle is definetly on par with Snakeee and Claw in terms of skill. He got 1st at a recent SFL tourney beating Seibrik and Afro, and last saturday he got 3rd, beating Afro but losing to Seibrik. On a side note his brother Esam, a pikachu player snagged first beating Seibrik in WF and GF.
And lol@ Ksizzle. Its hard to dislike Inui...he's so real, even if it's the wrong kind of realness.
Shadow 111
Smash Lord
oh... i had no idea they were brothers. O_ONick Riddle is definetly on par with Snakeee and Claw in terms of skill. He got 1st at a recent SFL tourney beating Seibrik and Afro, and last saturday he got 3rd, beating Afro but losing to Seibrik. On a side note his brother Esam, a pikachu player snagged first beating Seibrik in WF and GF.
And lol@ Ksizzle. Its hard to dislike Inui...he's so real, even if it's the wrong kind of realness.
good to know.
also, i thought afro quit. he does still play now and practices?
yeah, that's true about inui, lol.
sorry, kelvin... strayed away from the matchup a bit.
i don't see what else there is to talk about though.
just realized i never put what i thought the matchup ratio was.... ehh i'm gonna say 60/40 mk.
i do think she can fight him well, but i wouldn't say it's 55/45... i don't think it's THAT close to even.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Owww I got optically 3-stocked.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
I don't want him banned, but I'm just saying...Play TL against Meta and you tell me it doesn't suck...
Na that was old news. After Apex he got the spark for the game back, though Im not sure if he practices a lot (he never did really). Lambchops on the other hand, quit brawl and is only playing melee (and right when he was getting amazing), though he never played brawl much anyway.
ZSS being light and having no way to deal with Tornado seem to be the redeeming factors in this matchup. Also if MK can get a stock lead and force Zamus to approach (to a degree) he can get in more easily to rack up damage.
smasher01
Smash Ace
yeah i know when they know the matchup its hard, good spacing,tech skill
when they are smart its really hard.
PepsiMista
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2009
- Messages
- 129
Lemme guess...
MK's favor?
I think 60-40 mk..
Although i wanna say 55-45 soo badly.. T.T
MK's favor?
I think 60-40 mk..
Although i wanna say 55-45 soo badly.. T.T
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
Its hard to figure out. Shadows brother is the best zss in the country and shadows one of the best mks in the country so seeing it at the highest metagame so far he says its 60-40 but they DO get to play each other all the time. the matchup is so foreign with other people. its hard.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
I didn't know they were brothers, that's interesting. Anyways, ZSS is a problem, especially in the right hands. ZSS outranges MK with side b, and ZSS can prevent us from edge guarding her with her down + b and can end up spiking MK for a low % KO. I would go on to say Nick is as good or better than Snakeee.Nick Riddle is definetly on par with Snakeee and Claw in terms of skill. He got 1st at a recent SFL tourney beating Seibrik and Afro, and last saturday he got 3rd, beating Afro but losing to Seibrik. On a side note his brother Esam, a pikachu player snagged first beating Seibrik in WF and GF.
And lol@ Ksizzle. Its hard to dislike Inui...he's so real, even if it's the wrong kind of realness.
I approve of Shadow's message. Although sometimes it feels like 55:45 on some circumstances. Probably cause I don't know the match up all that well as him.
Snakeee
Smash Master
55/45 Metaknight, and to round it for the new upcoming match up chart it becomes 50/50
It's definitely closer to even than 6/4
TKD
Smash Lord
I believe the match-up's not actually even only because ZSS may be gimped, but I'm not sure how common that is if the player recovers correctly. I was told she either recovers ASAP to the ledge, or recovers high while saving her flip jump.
And MK IC is 7/3.
And MK IC is 7/3.
IDK exactly how ZSS does vs MK, but I don't think it's that close. Honestly her Side B seems to get worse and worse the more I look at it. I'd almost advise not to even use it that much. At least it feels that way for Wario vs ZSS.
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
I sort of agree. Don't give her any breathing room, and the move is almost useless.
If the ZSS player has good DI and recovers correctly she wont be easy to gimp at all. You juggle her to an extent but she can recover high, and worst case if you hit her back she'll probably be able to side B back to the ledge before you can ledgehog her.
If you can get her below/off the stage without her second jump that's the only you could really gimp her.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
ZSS side b is probably the hardest move to avoid, that, and her Up-air, the hitbox lasts long enough on her side b, it becomes more difficult to avoid it when MK has bad aerial momentum, your a Wario player, so it's much more easier to avoid her side b cause Wario has great aerial momentum to move back and forth out of side b's massive range, MK doesn't have this luxury in the air, all MK can really do is do running powershield against side b, but even then that won't help much cause ZSS can just charge her b move, and run up to you as you shield the b move, then she'll get a free grab on you.
Now Snakeee says its 55:45 when Shadow says 60:40? Confusing... <.<
Eh, I'm going to say it's 55:45 in MK's favor just because ZSS players study the MK match up immensely. It's probably 60:40 in MK's favor on frigate, ZSS worst stage.
TKD: ZSS isn't easy to gimp, unless it's on a stage like Frigate Orpheon. Nick Riddle is very good at not getting gimped, I know this from experience. -_-
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
Yeah, I have problems powershielding, mostly cause I play online, although I haven't played brawl for a while ever since the Conduit came out. What are some good power shield training methods in training mode?
MK can avoid it fine in the air. He has 5 jumps, his airdodge is fine, and if he absolutely has to avoid side b for whatever reason he can reverse shuttle loop away to avoid it.
On the ground, MK covers too much distance for her to use it as anything other than discourage MK from rushing in from further away. Once he is in Side B range though, you can't use it safely since he has enough time to run up to her and hit her comfortably.
Also yes she isn't easy to gimp BUT she does have a fairly hard time actually touching back onto the stage safely once she grabs the edge. Kinda reminds me of Snake or Dedede on the edge, they are really predictable and their options aren't too good overall.
On the ground, MK covers too much distance for her to use it as anything other than discourage MK from rushing in from further away. Once he is in Side B range though, you can't use it safely since he has enough time to run up to her and hit her comfortably.
Also yes she isn't easy to gimp BUT she does have a fairly hard time actually touching back onto the stage safely once she grabs the edge. Kinda reminds me of Snake or Dedede on the edge, they are really predictable and their options aren't too good overall.
Snakeee
Smash Master
I almost never use that move at all now. There are a few exceptions though where it may actually land.
And it's pretty rare for ZSS to get gimped here, but it is a concern. Recovering high intelligently when possible (it usually is) makes it very hard for Metaknight to reach her since she has the highest jumps in the game when Up B boosted.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
**** lmfaooooo does m2k have the power to silence a topic or wut...
just avoid airdodging into ZSS you get punished badly
just avoid airdodging into ZSS you get punished badly
Well the thing about ZSS is she has enough range to force you to Airdodge or get punished either way.
If you're directly under Zamus, she can up B you, or even jump and Uair you and intercepting with a dair would be impossible. So when you airdodge you'll get punished anyway. The idea is not to take too much damage from it, or get baired at higher percent.
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
So what matchup would you guys like to discuss next? Pikachu has been talked about alot. What do you guys think?
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
^^ lol pit
yea do pikachu. no1 seems to do that 60% chaingrab he has supposevley
yea do pikachu. no1 seems to do that 60% chaingrab he has supposevley
Hype
Smash Lord
When I'm at a high percent and above ZSS I purposely get hit by the up B (I think it's her up B that spikes) and then I just tech roll away.
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
NEXT MATCH-UP
Week 11 - Pikachu
Week 11 - Pikachu
TKD
Smash Lord
Pikachu's approach:
Pikachu can camp thunder jolt when MK's near the ground, or poke with Uair when MK's in the air, until MK begins to air-dodge or Mach Tornado, which Pikachu can bait to punish or only end up in a neutral position.
Pikachu's grab game:
If Pikachu lands a grab on MK at 10-13%, he can chain a dthrow into another until just above 50% and then buffer and Utilt or a full hop Nair, doing around 50% in damage. If Pikachu doesn't get a chain-grab opportunity or isn't willing to wait for it, he can at least Dthrow to Nair every time, until Meta Knight won't go into tumbling animation from the Dthrow. When Meta Knight won't go into tumble animation from Pikachu's Dthrow, he may be Uthrown which puts him in a bad position and vulnerable to Thunder, Uair pokes or general baiting.
Pikachu's recovery:
Barely exploitable if at all. Pikachu can Thunder Jolt even after momentum cancelling, and recover while following the jolt. Pikachu can also either go for the ledge or the stage while recovering. The character can cancel its Quick Attack from offstage if edge-hogged to avoid punishment.
Pikachu's KO options:
These, like Meta Knight's, aren't too dangerous, at least until higher %. Usmash is too slow for its range compared to MK's moves. Nair is too good out of shield for it to be fresh, (if it is, it may be as good as MK's though). Thunder isn't a consistently successful KO move. I think that Fsmash, though stronger, shouldn't KO MK because of its long start-up and very short sweet-spot range. Dsmash is good at the very high % it KOs at, but the MK player is able to smash DI out of it, unless it's connected incomplete (as in, they start it before it'll actually connect).
I analyzed the match-up from a Pikachu perspective. It's one of MK's tougher match-ups.
...
MK vs IC is 7/3 by the way. The 5/5 conclusion seems to have arrived too suddenly, I didn't even notice it until it was already declared.
Neutral Position.
All MK should do is air-jump Dair IC from the side so he can't get hit by Uair. Just watch out for the player controlled climber at very high % since Fair can KO sideways, possibly Bair at even higher %. If they're jump-happy, MK can just tornado them and proceed to follow-up though. Mach tornado can be pivot grabbed by Ice Climbers if they're synched and on the ground. Mach Tornado is still safe if they're in the air. If they whiff a Blizzard while not being desynched, the move has enough cool-down for MK to dash in and do anything to them as punishment (even UpB into glide attack). MK can camp until they're not desynched if they are.
Meta Knight's control.
Once Meta Knight lands any technique that knocks the Ice Climbers out of neutral position, Meta Knight can follow up (air-jump Dair repeat repeat repeat is good against the CPU controlled climber while keeping the human controlled one away), gaining complete control of the match, and likely gimping the computer controlled Climber.
Solo climber.
Solo climber is horrible against Meta Knight. Regular safe game play is enough to avoid being damaged. Solo climber's recovery is abysmal. The only possibilities I see for solo climber are either landing the one KO move if Meta Knight's at KO %, or doing a bit of damage before being KOed.
Ice Climber's control.
If Ice Climbers are in control, you probably got grabbed, didn't mash out of the grab while the computer controlled climber resynched with his partner, and you're moments away from being KOed unless the opponent trips.
The only possible reason I see for the match-up having been marked 5/5 is how strong the Ice Climbers are while in neutral position. This position is not very threatening though, and the moments of IC control don't compare to MK's, outside of the chain-grab.
Pikachu can camp thunder jolt when MK's near the ground, or poke with Uair when MK's in the air, until MK begins to air-dodge or Mach Tornado, which Pikachu can bait to punish or only end up in a neutral position.
Pikachu's grab game:
If Pikachu lands a grab on MK at 10-13%, he can chain a dthrow into another until just above 50% and then buffer and Utilt or a full hop Nair, doing around 50% in damage. If Pikachu doesn't get a chain-grab opportunity or isn't willing to wait for it, he can at least Dthrow to Nair every time, until Meta Knight won't go into tumbling animation from the Dthrow. When Meta Knight won't go into tumble animation from Pikachu's Dthrow, he may be Uthrown which puts him in a bad position and vulnerable to Thunder, Uair pokes or general baiting.
Pikachu's recovery:
Barely exploitable if at all. Pikachu can Thunder Jolt even after momentum cancelling, and recover while following the jolt. Pikachu can also either go for the ledge or the stage while recovering. The character can cancel its Quick Attack from offstage if edge-hogged to avoid punishment.
Pikachu's KO options:
These, like Meta Knight's, aren't too dangerous, at least until higher %. Usmash is too slow for its range compared to MK's moves. Nair is too good out of shield for it to be fresh, (if it is, it may be as good as MK's though). Thunder isn't a consistently successful KO move. I think that Fsmash, though stronger, shouldn't KO MK because of its long start-up and very short sweet-spot range. Dsmash is good at the very high % it KOs at, but the MK player is able to smash DI out of it, unless it's connected incomplete (as in, they start it before it'll actually connect).
I analyzed the match-up from a Pikachu perspective. It's one of MK's tougher match-ups.
...
MK vs IC is 7/3 by the way. The 5/5 conclusion seems to have arrived too suddenly, I didn't even notice it until it was already declared.
Neutral Position.
All MK should do is air-jump Dair IC from the side so he can't get hit by Uair. Just watch out for the player controlled climber at very high % since Fair can KO sideways, possibly Bair at even higher %. If they're jump-happy, MK can just tornado them and proceed to follow-up though. Mach tornado can be pivot grabbed by Ice Climbers if they're synched and on the ground. Mach Tornado is still safe if they're in the air. If they whiff a Blizzard while not being desynched, the move has enough cool-down for MK to dash in and do anything to them as punishment (even UpB into glide attack). MK can camp until they're not desynched if they are.
Meta Knight's control.
Once Meta Knight lands any technique that knocks the Ice Climbers out of neutral position, Meta Knight can follow up (air-jump Dair repeat repeat repeat is good against the CPU controlled climber while keeping the human controlled one away), gaining complete control of the match, and likely gimping the computer controlled Climber.
Solo climber.
Solo climber is horrible against Meta Knight. Regular safe game play is enough to avoid being damaged. Solo climber's recovery is abysmal. The only possibilities I see for solo climber are either landing the one KO move if Meta Knight's at KO %, or doing a bit of damage before being KOed.
Ice Climber's control.
If Ice Climbers are in control, you probably got grabbed, didn't mash out of the grab while the computer controlled climber resynched with his partner, and you're moments away from being KOed unless the opponent trips.
The only possible reason I see for the match-up having been marked 5/5 is how strong the Ice Climbers are while in neutral position. This position is not very threatening though, and the moments of IC control don't compare to MK's, outside of the chain-grab.
Why 6:4? What methods of attacking do the IC's have to reliably rack up damage on MK besides grabbing? The only way they can be in control of the match is if they grabbed MK, and MK obviously has reliable ways to get around it. MK on the other hand, can stay in control throughout the majority of the match if he places his body and sword properly.
HammerBro123
Smash Cadet
the bowser matchup aganist metaknight is 45 55 because of the chaingrab and the forward air almost guarenteed.
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