Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
There's no way in hell Lucario's ftilt outranges MK's dsmash.
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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO
- Thread starter OverLade
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phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I think that he smears between the 55:45 and the 60:40, not entirely fitting into either ratio very well. Kind of how marth makes an excellent place holder and definer of who should be in the S tier and A tier.
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
After some testing, they both have the same range.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Unfortunately, dsmash is like 5 frames to start, whereas ftilt is 12, so obviously, not best suited in terms of speed.
Lol apparently dsmash is just 1 frame slower on cooldown.
Lol apparently dsmash is just 1 frame slower on cooldown.
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
lol um who said that lucario wasnt so good vs mk? are you just taking this from azen vs m2ks year old playing or watching scrub lucarios fight meta knight? Lucario can be used way better thanks to stuff ive found now especially versus mk. this matchup is overall in mk's favor but lucario wins on stages like fd, pkm1, and sv. and mk wins on the other neutral-counters. it really does go to "whoever is better with there character wins the match". anyone who says lucario isnt viable vs mk is ignorant OR not watching a good lucario vs mk
Popertop
Smash Champion
kzisl I'm really looking forward to these videos.
y'know, as opposed to looking back at them.
because they haven't been uploaded yet.
y'know, as opposed to looking back at them.
because they haven't been uploaded yet.
it was taken off of youtube due to ToS violation(I think because of the song chibo used) but the closest to a year old azen vs m2k video relevant to this MU azen won actually(although this was when m2k mained DDD)
youtuuuuuuuuube
in addition to lucario's starting 7 frames slower it's notable that lucario's ftilt extends his hurtbox significantly while MK's dsmash does not, and MK's dsmash covers crossup options...luc's ftilt is an alright move that does help him but it's not beating MK's dsmash for utility lol
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
lucarios roll too much -_- staying air borne thsi match helps but then watch out for aura spheres they are so gay kill at such early % if caught near edges
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
^Yeah, the bad ones do.
Also, ftilt doesn't extend hitboxes as bad as you make it sound (DK fsmash or bowser fair really do that), but yes, although because of it's range, it means that it's not going to beat it obviously, but if you do shield it, I think you can punish with ftilt (I dunno about dsmash shield advantage, but I'd guess it isn't too great for MK).
And yes, ksizl vids would be epic.
Also, ftilt doesn't extend hitboxes as bad as you make it sound (DK fsmash or bowser fair really do that), but yes, although because of it's range, it means that it's not going to beat it obviously, but if you do shield it, I think you can punish with ftilt (I dunno about dsmash shield advantage, but I'd guess it isn't too great for MK).
And yes, ksizl vids would be epic.
smasher01
Smash Ace
that make no sense after he beat M2K. he should be saying its in warios favior now or even lol
good proof dr.mario guy on who has advantage on the matchup lol not
Except... It's truly not.
That would be like me saying Marth vs Wario is in Wario's favor just because I beat a lot of really good Marth players.
smasher01
Smash Ace
well thats kinda what it comes down to on the tiers list lol
but ok you got me i see
but ok you got me i see
The Sage of Shadow: Darklink
Smash Ace
LUCARIO
The matchup against Lucario can be pretty tough as he is an underrated character with many strengths. His versatility and interesting playstyle, along with his unique Aura ability (which increases the damage and knockback of his moves as he takes damage from you) can catch you off guard and make this an interesting fight.
A good Lucario will keep you pressured with his Aura Sphere at mid-far range, jab attack and utilt at close range, and dairs/fairs for his aerial game. He also has a pseudo chaingrab at 0% with his force palm grab.
Watch out for his mix-ups as well. He can jab cancel into grab (or another jab combo), Fsmash you and then jab within the IASA frames, and utilt chain at low percents. His aerial approaches include short-hopped fair to fast-falled nair, fair/bair to dair, and fair to fast falled FP grab. Airdodging his upair usually gives him a free dair too.
On the ground, we outrange Lucario with our faster tilts, and can punish his laggy fmash/ftilt/dtilt with our own (and Nair/up B OoS). Approach him like you would an olimar, slowly while we bait a mistake to punish. Powershield any Aura Spheres he throws out and space him with ftilt/dtilt. If he attempts to Fsmash you, be careful as its deceptive range and timing can punish a bad spotdodge. An interesting technique i came upon is that powershielding his fsmash gives us a free dash grab. Don't forget to add some fairs for mixups and OoS nairs to punish.
His jab comes out in frame 6, Dtilt on frame 9, and ftilt on frame 12 (his utilt comes out in 5 but it has poor range), While our ftilt and dtilt come out on frame 4 and our dmash comes out on frame 6. So not only do we outrange him but everything we throw out is faster as well. Just avoid punishable whiffing (dont finish the last hit of ftilt unless youre going to hit as many MK's do) and space well and you will do more damage than whats being done to you.
On another note, be aware that Lucario's fsmash and charged Aura Sphere beat tornado. You'll get punished for using it recklessly.
Lucario's air game is awesome, and its how he deals most of his damage. His fair/nair come out fast and are chained well with each other, his bair and uair kill and have long range, and his dair has good knockback, great priority and range, comes out in 4 frames, and is just an amazing attack in general. It will kill you at higher percents (especially with his Aura ability)
Fortunately for us, we're a cheap character with an unrivaled air game. MK's fair beats Lucario's fair and trades with his bair, and our dair is amazing for gimping Lucario (which is how we should get a good amount of kills on Lucario). Be careful using improperly spaced uair's though, as his dair beats it. Mix it up with short-hopped fairs and dairs, and shuttle loop when he jumps towards you. Dont get predictable with SL though, as you'll get punished for it on your way around.
When Lucario is off the stage, GIMP HIM. or at least get some damage in with aerials. His recovery doesn't do any damage so staying on the ledge is completely safe since he will just fall to his doom. If he recovers high onto the stage, punish him for it. Dair is amazing for gimping, just space his slow jumps and bait airdodges and you can get really easy kills with proper edge guards.
ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING about this matchup that can really frustrate MK is his Aura ability. He can KO you at significantly lower percentages because of it, and deal a lot more damage. The key to dealing with it is to just keep your cool and continue to space well and bait a mistake to kill him. I've seen one too many MK's get frustrated and play stupidly aggressive and just get punished hard for it. And that probably will lose you the match.
STAGE SELECTION
For neutrals strike out final destination and yoshi's island. Final Destination is a great Lucario level, as he can camp with AS, limit our approach options, and his wall cling ability is really good so the lip doesn't hurt him as much. Yoshi's is one of his better stages too as the support ghosts can save him from easy gimps. I would prefer smashville as the single platform helps with avoiding his Aura Sphere and gives you more approach options. Battlefield is good too as it limits his stage controls and helps your disjointed aerials. The platforms hinder his game and help ours.
For counterpicks I would deff go Rainbow Cruise but chances are they are going to ban it, so Delfino is another good one (watch out for his SHdair when you shark upairs from under the stage though). Lylat is another good one as the moving stage and horrible lip can get you easy kills.
Ban Final Destination too.
I would give the matchup a 60-40
The matchup against Lucario can be pretty tough as he is an underrated character with many strengths. His versatility and interesting playstyle, along with his unique Aura ability (which increases the damage and knockback of his moves as he takes damage from you) can catch you off guard and make this an interesting fight.
A good Lucario will keep you pressured with his Aura Sphere at mid-far range, jab attack and utilt at close range, and dairs/fairs for his aerial game. He also has a pseudo chaingrab at 0% with his force palm grab.
Watch out for his mix-ups as well. He can jab cancel into grab (or another jab combo), Fsmash you and then jab within the IASA frames, and utilt chain at low percents. His aerial approaches include short-hopped fair to fast-falled nair, fair/bair to dair, and fair to fast falled FP grab. Airdodging his upair usually gives him a free dair too.
On the ground, we outrange Lucario with our faster tilts, and can punish his laggy fmash/ftilt/dtilt with our own (and Nair/up B OoS). Approach him like you would an olimar, slowly while we bait a mistake to punish. Powershield any Aura Spheres he throws out and space him with ftilt/dtilt. If he attempts to Fsmash you, be careful as its deceptive range and timing can punish a bad spotdodge. An interesting technique i came upon is that powershielding his fsmash gives us a free dash grab. Don't forget to add some fairs for mixups and OoS nairs to punish.
His jab comes out in frame 6, Dtilt on frame 9, and ftilt on frame 12 (his utilt comes out in 5 but it has poor range), While our ftilt and dtilt come out on frame 4 and our dmash comes out on frame 6. So not only do we outrange him but everything we throw out is faster as well. Just avoid punishable whiffing (dont finish the last hit of ftilt unless youre going to hit as many MK's do) and space well and you will do more damage than whats being done to you.
On another note, be aware that Lucario's fsmash and charged Aura Sphere beat tornado. You'll get punished for using it recklessly.
Lucario's air game is awesome, and its how he deals most of his damage. His fair/nair come out fast and are chained well with each other, his bair and uair kill and have long range, and his dair has good knockback, great priority and range, comes out in 4 frames, and is just an amazing attack in general. It will kill you at higher percents (especially with his Aura ability)
Fortunately for us, we're a cheap character with an unrivaled air game. MK's fair beats Lucario's fair and trades with his bair, and our dair is amazing for gimping Lucario (which is how we should get a good amount of kills on Lucario). Be careful using improperly spaced uair's though, as his dair beats it. Mix it up with short-hopped fairs and dairs, and shuttle loop when he jumps towards you. Dont get predictable with SL though, as you'll get punished for it on your way around.
When Lucario is off the stage, GIMP HIM. or at least get some damage in with aerials. His recovery doesn't do any damage so staying on the ledge is completely safe since he will just fall to his doom. If he recovers high onto the stage, punish him for it. Dair is amazing for gimping, just space his slow jumps and bait airdodges and you can get really easy kills with proper edge guards.
ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING about this matchup that can really frustrate MK is his Aura ability. He can KO you at significantly lower percentages because of it, and deal a lot more damage. The key to dealing with it is to just keep your cool and continue to space well and bait a mistake to kill him. I've seen one too many MK's get frustrated and play stupidly aggressive and just get punished hard for it. And that probably will lose you the match.
STAGE SELECTION
For neutrals strike out final destination and yoshi's island. Final Destination is a great Lucario level, as he can camp with AS, limit our approach options, and his wall cling ability is really good so the lip doesn't hurt him as much. Yoshi's is one of his better stages too as the support ghosts can save him from easy gimps. I would prefer smashville as the single platform helps with avoiding his Aura Sphere and gives you more approach options. Battlefield is good too as it limits his stage controls and helps your disjointed aerials. The platforms hinder his game and help ours.
For counterpicks I would deff go Rainbow Cruise but chances are they are going to ban it, so Delfino is another good one (watch out for his SHdair when you shark upairs from under the stage though). Lylat is another good one as the moving stage and horrible lip can get you easy kills.
Ban Final Destination too.
I would give the matchup a 60-40
CaliburChamp
Smash Master
That summed it up quite nicely. ^
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
discuss ZSS please. no1 knows how to fight her yea some of you guys can take down all the noob zss but you will never know what the matchup is like until u fight snakee
even m2k lost a match to him once. but its just so foreign to most people.
even m2k lost a match to him once. but its just so foreign to most people.
Good idea. Even though I know how to fight her npw, she still confuses the **** out a lot of other MK's.
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
Looks like some of you guys want ZSS. ill give you a little more time to decide and tonight ill start the matchup for this week. so what matchups do you want to discuss?
MK doesn't clang in general, barring glide attack, does he?
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
No aerials clash. They trade. When a hitbox collides with a hurtbox in the air, damage/knockback take place. There's no colliding at all.
All of MK's attacks, barring glide attack, tornado, and drill rush, are transcended (they behave like lasers). They go through everything, but don't touch anything.
All of MK's attacks, barring glide attack, tornado, and drill rush, are transcended (they behave like lasers). They go through everything, but don't touch anything.
The Sage of Shadow: Darklink
Smash Ace
K i switched it to trades
I think Falco would be a good matchup discussion. I would also love to talk about Pikachu.
I think Falco would be a good matchup discussion. I would also love to talk about Pikachu.
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
NEXT MATCH-UP
Week 9 - Falco
Week 9 - Falco
stingers
Smash Obsessed
55:45 MK
Camp the sides of the stage so he can't approach with illusion. The lasers need to be powershielded whenever possible. Falco is one of the few characters can shut down our shorthop approaches, either approach from above with Dairs or from the ground with dashing grabs/dash attacks. If you can get Falco offstage, be prepared for a high recovery. Falco can be very tricky with his Illusion so he'll recover high against us most likely because he knows recovering at ledge level will more then likely get him gimped. Watch out for the elongated illusion where he kind of glides through the air at the end.
If you get in, do not retreat. Falco has a really good boxing game with Jabs and Ftilt, but we can beat it with our ftilt and dtilt since we outrange him. Get in, ****, keep the pressure on. The only way to beat a good Falco is to keep on the pressure.
Camp the sides of the stage so he can't approach with illusion. The lasers need to be powershielded whenever possible. Falco is one of the few characters can shut down our shorthop approaches, either approach from above with Dairs or from the ground with dashing grabs/dash attacks. If you can get Falco offstage, be prepared for a high recovery. Falco can be very tricky with his Illusion so he'll recover high against us most likely because he knows recovering at ledge level will more then likely get him gimped. Watch out for the elongated illusion where he kind of glides through the air at the end.
If you get in, do not retreat. Falco has a really good boxing game with Jabs and Ftilt, but we can beat it with our ftilt and dtilt since we outrange him. Get in, ****, keep the pressure on. The only way to beat a good Falco is to keep on the pressure.
Jupz
Smash Master
^^Camping the sides and waiting for Falco to approach with illusion won't work, as he's simply not going to approach. Space well when you are up close as his Jab is faster then all of our moves (2 frames). Tornado to beat out his Side B recovery, also they won't like to recover high most of the time because they get so easily punished, although they could mix it up.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Camp the sides so he CAN'T approach with illusion. When I say camp, I mean...wait there until it's good for us to approach, really. I know we have to approach, but you can do it safely if you play right. Falco is a ***** to get near but once you do you really need to make it count. If you're not already in, the sides are the safest place to be.
Watch Dojo vs. Sethlon #1 (the newest one) to see what I mean about recovering high. It's very tricky.
Watch Dojo vs. Sethlon #1 (the newest one) to see what I mean about recovering high. It's very tricky.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
The longer you wait on the sides, the more lasers he'll shoot and the more shield damage you'll take. Rush him, don't camp the sides.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Rushing in before it's safe...isn't safe. Falco has too many fast moves to rush in and approach. I've never played a good west coast Falco, but Kismet was pretty good at stopping stupid approaches.
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
<_< It's always going to be the same. SHDL over and over again. What's waiting gonna do? You can't count a player getting "bored" of shooting lasers over and over again in a matchup discussion. You can be just as smart with rushing him.
Btw, the real way to play this matchup is floating around and dairing, then landing on platforms when you're out of jumps. If his shield's low, tornado. If it doesn't poke, retreat to a platform before your tornado ends. Repeat this until he's lasered or attacked you to 30%, then fight him normally.
Btw, the real way to play this matchup is floating around and dairing, then landing on platforms when you're out of jumps. If his shield's low, tornado. If it doesn't poke, retreat to a platform before your tornado ends. Repeat this until he's lasered or attacked you to 30%, then fight him normally.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
XD falco will never kill a smart mk until he gets lazer > upsmash
keitaro is coming over and well do mk vs falco for like 3 hours and ill write a really detailed report
keitaro is coming over and well do mk vs falco for like 3 hours and ill write a really detailed report
platform/dair camp to start out then start playing more normally.
power shielding his lasers is obviously a must, especially at close/mid range where he could dash grab you if you get stuck in your shield too long
cross ups are really good on falco if you can get out of his immediate grab range like tornado and go behind him if he shields it, all he can really do is run away and camp. aerials are also good for this, nair and fair especially are hard to punish from behind for falco
tornado covers most of his recovery options(all really if you do it right) if you just want some easy free damage instead of trying to gimp him.
falco has a really hard time landing most of his kill moves unless you do something stupid/get tricked into them, so be smart at high percents and play safe. he does have laser > DACUS and his fsmash outranges a lot of your attacks but just maintaining good stage position usually lets me survive his fsmash to pretty high precents
falco's best zones are either directly in front of you at long range or directly in front of you at very close range, you want to get past his lasers without getting so close that his jab beats you, and above or below him are also good places to be.
ban japes or FD, I think BF/RC/Orpheon would be best CP's for this matchup, or just good MK stages in general like delfino or SV, I like Orpheon against Falco because during the first transform the right side has no ledge and he would have to leave himself very open when recovering, and it's a smallish stage with pretty good platform placement.
power shielding his lasers is obviously a must, especially at close/mid range where he could dash grab you if you get stuck in your shield too long
cross ups are really good on falco if you can get out of his immediate grab range like tornado and go behind him if he shields it, all he can really do is run away and camp. aerials are also good for this, nair and fair especially are hard to punish from behind for falco
tornado covers most of his recovery options(all really if you do it right) if you just want some easy free damage instead of trying to gimp him.
falco has a really hard time landing most of his kill moves unless you do something stupid/get tricked into them, so be smart at high percents and play safe. he does have laser > DACUS and his fsmash outranges a lot of your attacks but just maintaining good stage position usually lets me survive his fsmash to pretty high precents
falco's best zones are either directly in front of you at long range or directly in front of you at very close range, you want to get past his lasers without getting so close that his jab beats you, and above or below him are also good places to be.
ban japes or FD, I think BF/RC/Orpheon would be best CP's for this matchup, or just good MK stages in general like delfino or SV, I like Orpheon against Falco because during the first transform the right side has no ledge and he would have to leave himself very open when recovering, and it's a smallish stage with pretty good platform placement.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
Ummm...
Down Smash...Forward Smash...Shuttle Loop...
Down Smash...Forward Smash...Shuttle Loop...
TKD
Smash Lord
Isn't there a Q&A thread or something for those questions?
Not true. Falco can kill you as long as you have to approach. If Falco simply stays in one spots and spams SHDL you have to come near him, which gives him options to kill you. Trust me when I say it's no fun trying to catch up either.....
Max Ketchum
Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
If you get a stock lead on Falco, never hit forward. Just don't care about taking damage from lasers and force him to approach, which is unsafe.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
NOT approaching when stock ahead inst that smart and not too many people are going to do that doom XD
anyway i really want to get someone to look at escaping the chaingrab with upair
it worked randomly today in our matches but not all the time. i think if he doest dash or something mk can get out during the first 2 grabs the rest is just bad timing will let u get out
anyway i really want to get someone to look at escaping the chaingrab with upair
it worked randomly today in our matches but not all the time. i think if he doest dash or something mk can get out during the first 2 grabs the rest is just bad timing will let u get out
Uair won't get you out of Falco's CG if he does it right. At worst, it should trade with his grab. Dashing is worse than Walking usually, I'd imagine it's the same here.
Also not approaching when you have a stock lead is smart IF you have already done a bit of damage on his next stock. Once he kills you, stay on the angel platform as long as you can. I do that with Wario all the time, it puts IMMENSE pressure on Falco to approach and get the kill.
Also not approaching when you have a stock lead is smart IF you have already done a bit of damage on his next stock. Once he kills you, stay on the angel platform as long as you can. I do that with Wario all the time, it puts IMMENSE pressure on Falco to approach and get the kill.
The Sage of Shadow: Darklink
Smash Ace
I secondary Falco, and Metaknight Uair can only work If the Falco user doesnt do the walking chaingrab (which a good Falco will always do)
His CG sucks
He can easily get 35 damage on MK, or 55+ if he follows up with a dash/upsmash (which always hits under 40ish) or techchasing.
The best thing to try is DI'ing away from Falco on the control stick, and hitting up on the Cstick for an uair possibility
If I have time Ill write a detailed summary later
His CG sucks
He can easily get 35 damage on MK, or 55+ if he follows up with a dash/upsmash (which always hits under 40ish) or techchasing.The best thing to try is DI'ing away from Falco on the control stick, and hitting up on the Cstick for an uair possibility
If I have time Ill write a detailed summary later
why? what's he going to do, laser you to death?
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