• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

Status
Not open for further replies.

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
Not really.


and add teh spamerer to gates' list of examples, plenty of very successful defensive MK's out there to show that defensive MK is in fact good, and it's pretty obvious when you look at MK's attributes that he's a beast at deflecting avoiding and punishing approaches, and it's hard as hell for most characters to land kill moves on him if he doesn't approach.
 

DanGR

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
6,860
The main problems I see with Metaknight players are the following:
1.) Smashes- If the Olimar player is on the ground, don't use them. Just frame trap him with spaced dtilts and ftilts instead. Dsmash is laggy and very easy to punish with a simple grab. Use it more for punishing, and not attacking. Fsmash is better for punishing landing attempts, as well.

2.) Tornado- Use it wisely. Any time you can get an Olimar to short hop, roll away, or run away, 9 times out of 10 you'll be able to catch him with a tornado. Moving Oli=good tornado opportunity. Just be sure to tornado above his pivotgrab/grab range. Also, if you catch an Oli in it, don't keep following him. If you do, he'll just DI out and likely punish with a nair. Just mash the b button and float away until he's out of range to punish you. By that time, he'll most likely still be in the air and you'll be able to wreck him.

If you go in for the tornado after dair camping (if that's the way you like to approach the matchup), mix it up by fast falling in->ftilt/dtilt. If you can get the Olimar player to bite and use upairs, you'll have a lot of chances to punish it by simply airdodging into the ground behind him and waiting for him to land.

3.) Punishing Oli's floatyness- Olimar is really floaty. That means he'll fall slowly. MK's running grab is amazing. Use it! Punish landing with MK's running grab more and you'll be amazed at how much it makes a difference. Throw him offstage and...

4.) Edgeguarding- Use more nair. And use it from the side so they can't upair you away from them. It also prevents them from upbing into you, and they can't whistle through it the entire thing either. =easy gimp.

That's most of it, really. "Get better." >_>

edit:
The best olimars in the country all live REAL close to me. Blackwaltz and dabuz are all really good. i jv 3 stocked dabuz last week at game table tourney and 2 stocked him the other round. the matchup is a joke if the mk knows what hes doing. he sees that matchup so bad for people who know it, hes convinced to mk ditto every mk now becuz of it. now hes learning mk lol. the matches were recorded too. ill post them eventually. everything i said about the match is true. tornado works. dair camping works.
Lol.
 

Affinity

Smash Hero
Joined
May 27, 2006
Messages
6,876
Location
Wichita, KS
NNID
Affinity2412
2ndSteel, Just noticed a mistake in earlier posts. I'll be gone from this Friday until July 22nd, not Thursday.
 

Max Ketchum

Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
New Jersey
Don't ever dash attack or fair into Olimar. Hell, just don't attack his shield with any move that leaves you on the ground afterwards. That's just asking to take 15%+ from a grab + whatever followup he wants. If he wants to camp you, you could stay in one spot and just continuously nair the Pikmin off (don't worry about it staling, you only need a little tap with it to gimp Olimar anyway). If you manage to get close, attack the high diagonal angles of his shield (i.e. if Olimar is facing left, attack northwest and northeast). Usmash only hits you if it's in between your dairs, otherwise the dair will knock the Pikmin away.

Side Bing straight into Olimar's shield actually isn't a bad idea if it's slightly depleted. Side B pokes shields ridiculously well, and Olimar will have a lot of trouble shieldgrabbing it with his lack of grab armor. Even better if you know the perfect ledge cancel distance. You can push him off with side B and immediately nair. Should be a free stock, if not, chase with dair or another nair. Down B/side B/jump right back to the edge and you're good.

A little trick that good Olimars like to do is uair you from below when you're edgehogging them. The move has deceptively high hitboxes and lasts long, which may outlast your invincibility. Watch out for this when they have 4-6 Pikmin, as it'll allow them to afford the drop from uair and then immediately up B to the edge. By deceptively high, I mean super ****ing high, lol. Uair goes through the sides of Battlefield from under the stage.

If you're above Olimar, you have barely any options. His uair can and will beat your dair. Prepare to take 25% from red Pikmin, 20-22ish from yellow, and close to 20 from blue/purple. Smash DI up to get out of this, the hitbox is pretty wide too. If you can, move to his sides and bair/fair him (this is pretty difficult due to MK's slow air speed though). Being above anyone in this game sucks, Olimar's certainly not an exception.

If you manage to grab him, either fthrow or bthrow him (preferably the one closest to the edge). Bait the dodge, then up B/nair/dair, or if he's at super low percents, uair chains into up B/nair/tornado. Tornado should really only be used when he's landing, otherwise you face the dangers of getting pivot grabbed. Either suck him out of his air dodge with it, or move so his nair won't touch you (it only beats tornado from the top center).

NEVER glide into Olimar! Usmash clashes with glide attack and he'll have frame advantage, uair beats it, and all his other aerials clash with it if spaced right (nair will beat it from a very strange angle, though). He can also shieldgrab it fully spaced with any Pikmin except purple, and if he's fast, fsmash out of shield. Up B also totally demolishes gliding, and if you're not prepared, you might find yourself dying pretty early. I believe the Pikmin CLOSEST to Olimar indicates the type of attack that his up B will do.

If you get hit by nair, SMASH DI UP. This move easily combos into dsmash or usmash, both of which kill MK rather early. His aerials are all really dangerous, but lack range so much that it's almost funny. Fair and bair do something like 13 damage each and will kill you at high percents. Dair's non-spike hitboxes are REALLY strong at the beginning, but not so much afterwards. If he doesn't autocancel his aerials, they all have really nasty landing lag (with the exception of nair, it's not that bad). Punish accordingly, grab/dsmash/ftilt preferred.

Olimar's smashes are straight ridiculous. Dsmash has a nasty angle and will kill MK at around 110 with perfect DI with red and blue Pikmin. Usmash kills around 105 for red/blue and 80, yes, EIGHTY PERCENT, with purple. Luckily you can just swat them away with your dair, but if Olimar sees an opportunity to run in and punish you with usmash, he will certainly take it. This means at high percents, be very sparing with your usage of tornado. It's VERY punishable, and purple Pikmin usmashes will beat it head on. Olimar's fsmash is incredibly safe and long-ranged, and he'll use this as a mix-up as you approach him through his camping (he'll switch between fsmash and grab most of the time, both are very damaging). Purple fsmash is incredibly strong, but luckily has super short range and won't hit you if you're careful with your spacing/approaches. It's not gonna touch you if you're off the ground a little bit. Also, be wary of fsmash when you're on the edge. It has ridiculous active frames that last even when the Pikmin is falling off the stage! He can also grab you from under the ledge with any Pikmin besides purple. Just outguess him on the edge and you should be able to return without problems.

As someone mentioned earlier, never dsmash just to dsmash. The move is ridiculously unsafe on block, especially on a character like Olimar with insane grab range. If you're gonna be using any smash on him, it should be fsmash. It's VERY safe on block vs. Olimar (lol 11 frame grab). Most Olimars with matchup experience will expect the standard fsmash -> dsmash on the shield and continue shielding. I like to follow up fsmashes with dash grabs or ftilts. Dash grabbing is more effective on Olimar most of the time, but it comes down to the opponent's habits and how he reacts when his shield is hit. Choose carefully. Alternatively, you could predict his obvious attempt at trying to shieldgrab fsmash -> dsmash and just spot dodge the grab and punish with dair/dsmash/grab...just try outguessing him. Point is, dsmash is very unsafe, and should only be used to punish (as in, when you're sure it will hit).

Off the stage, be prepared for whistle and air dodge combinations. Nair outlasts the whistle if they're used at the same time, and the weak hit will tap him away. This is enough to either gimp him or set him up for another nair/dair. If he's above the edge, he's got much better chances of making it back. Just wait for him to do something and nair it away (dair if you manage to get on top of him). If you knock him out of his second jump, his stock is yours. Just be wary of the tiny little hop his up B gives him, and its lagless landing on the stage. Shouldn't really be any trouble once you knock him off.

Like I said before, grabbing = lots of damage. Blue throws deal close to 15 damage on their own, plus pummels and followups. Dthrow -> usmash -> uair is over 40 damage with the right Pikmin (blue red red is the proper combination, I believe). White grabs not only have the most range, but deal 3-4% per pummel. They also have the lowest knockback, leading to followups at higher percents than normal. Know what's even worse? Olimar can kill you from his grabs. Blue bthrow will finish you at about 130 with good DI. Purple uthrow kills at about 105...but luckily it's got the least range and Olimar's lack of grab armor makes it difficult for him to grab you that close up (provided your spacing game is on).

Stages to ban:
For the first round, strike FD and Battlefield. Olimar loves both of these stages a lot. My advice is to ban either Halberd or FD. Halberd's low ceilings are very good for Olimar, given that most of his kill power is off the top. FD should be obvious, as he can just freely camp your balls off there, and you have a humongous flat stage to traverse before you can touch him. He's amazing on Luigi's Mansion (if it's legal, it certainly isn't here), but you're good there too. Same goes for Norfair--more ledges for him to grab on, but MK is amazing there as well.

Stages to use:
Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza, Jungle Japes (where it's allowed).

Rainbow should be obvious for the most part. No ledges for over half the level. However, the ceiling at the top part of the level is insanely low.

Frigate is great on the first transformation, but ends up working really well for him on the second one...it also has a slightly lower ceiling than the neutrals, so watch out.

Delfino is great on almost every transformation. If he lands in water, all of his non-blue Pikmin die. You can camp underneath the stage on the floating platform and Shine Tower parts, which works. The sand mound has a low ceiling, though, and watch for the walkoffs.

Japes is your best choice, but may not be available. The high ceiling hurts him and doesn't affect you at all. He's boned as soon as he's in the water--all his Pikmin will die and the water will rush him off to his death. The varying platform levels help you pressure him, as do thin floors--you can uair him through the platforms on the side if you're feeling ballsy. If this stage is on, take Olimar here! If he bans it or it's illegal, Delfino is probably your next best choice, followed by Rainbow and then Frigate.

Overall matchup ratios:
55:45 MK on neutrals and Halberd, 60:40 on counterpicks.
 

smasher01

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
524
Location
Bremerton,WA
i just realized alot of matchup with MK are 55:45 MK favior preatty close . got any thing to say about that lol?
o and theDoom TY for all the info :)
 

Crizthakidd

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
2,619
Location
NJ
just played dabuz online ill upload vids how to fight olimar

3 stocked him with my mk lololol
then 2 stock

then beat him with my snake/diddy which meant he was playing really bad -___-

i found out that u need to grab him really smart and predict his landing cuz he would be falling left then turn right and fast fall. once hes in the air i would nado chase and the gimps were so lulz.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
just played dabuz online ill upload vids how to fight olimar

3 stocked him with my mk lololol
then 2 stock

then beat him with my snake/diddy which meant he was playing really bad -___-

i found out that u need to grab him really smart and predict his landing cuz he would be falling left then turn right and fast fall. once hes in the air i would nado chase and the gimps were so lulz.
It's online though....

I don't know how good your connection is, but it's generally safe not to base anything off online. A lot of people don't even try their hardest online, or play like they do offline, cuz I know I never did lol.
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
6,057
Location
Being the most hated
just played dabuz online ill upload vids how to fight olimar

3 stocked him with my mk lololol
then 2 stock

then beat him with my snake/diddy which meant he was playing really bad -___-

i found out that u need to grab him really smart and predict his landing cuz he would be falling left then turn right and fast fall. once hes in the air i would nado chase and the gimps were so lulz.
you do realize those were FRIENDLIES where i was using 2INCH TV WITH NO SOUND, basically i was handicapping myself in a friendly where i was still getting used to my handicaps in an online match, don't bother uploading those vids, for how will matches where i wasn't even trying help at all, the only thing you learned that is completely correct is that you need to learn to predict landings


edit: also, the reason im using a small TV is so i will be used to the pint size TVs that are brought to IRL tournaments
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
you do realize those were FRIENDLIES where i was using 2INCH TV WITH NO SOUND, basically i was handicapping myself in a friendly where i was still getting used to my handicaps in an online match, don't bother uploading those vids, for how will matches where i wasn't even trying help at all, the only thing you learned that is completely correct is that you need to learn to predict landings


edit: also, the reason im using a small TV is so i will be used to the pint size TVs that are brought to IRL tournaments
@Criz
Like I said though, you can never see what's going on, on the opposite side of your connection. I've played Wifi while talking on the phone before. Most people don't play their hardest, or don't bother trying things that might be difficult to pull off online even though they regularly do them offline. It's not anywhere near the same thing, which is why you can't try to base a matchup off of it.

You can "technically" practice matchups online or at least get the feel of them, but trying to prove something from an online match is ridiculous.
 

Dabuz

Fraud at Smash
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
6,057
Location
Being the most hated
halberd, why do you always have to mention wifi su**s in every argument, we understand that, im just saying a friendly match shows nothing and shouldn't be used in any discussion
 

phi1ny3

Not the Mama
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
9,649
Location
in my SCIENCE! lab
Yes! This one is so old, and many MKs I feel really underestimate this matchup because good lucarios are scarce (but that's my opinion).
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
halberd, why do you always have to mention wifi su**s in every argument, we understand that, im just saying a friendly match shows nothing and shouldn't be used in any discussion
Well my internet connection happens to be downright terrible, so I'm **** biased against Wifi. I've never played a Wifi match that I feel could be counted for anything, though sure, mabye there are people out there with decent connections. I mean to say is that Wifi is never a good determinant of which player would actually win a match.

Anyway, im not bashing Wifi players or people who use Wifi to practice, I'm just saying the whole basis on which his arguement was based was pretty bad.
 

ksizl4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
5,222
Location
NJ/NY
I would like to cover Ice Climbers or Lucario. either one its up to you guys. these imo are close to even matchups. what will it be ?
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
Just out of curiosity...but what evidence is there to MK vs. Lucario being even? I've only seen Lucario players do well against MK players on an odd handful of occasions. If MK kills Lucario before he can catch up via Aura it's generally pretty ****.

Im down for discussing it.
 

Max Ketchum

Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
New Jersey
Hey guys, I just got back from ksizzle's house. His motherboard short-circuited, so he won't be online for at least a few days.

Yesterday, at a New Jersey tournament, ksizzle took a game off Mew2King's MK in grand finals with Lucario. He also got him to last stock 137% in the same set. Mew2King and ksizzle both think Lucario has the advantage on FD, even on the other neutrals, and slight advantage MK on "gay" stages (Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Delfino). I also believe that this match is very close, after watching the entire set.
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
Well that's interesting. Were vids recorded?

And just wondering, but did Ksizzle have to use a gay "roll away and spam" style, or not?
 

Max Ketchum

Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
New Jersey
No and no, RedHalberd. M2K basically punished every single roll with dair, dsmash or nair. Lucario's fsmash is insanely good against MK. Every time he fsmashed M2K's shield, he'd run backwards and pivot fsmash again, either being unpunishable or hitting a whiffed dash grab. He built damage with a mix of Aura Spheres (charged and uncharged), fair combos, or jabs. If he ever forced M2K to glide, he would eat an Aura Sphere almost every time. The match is definitely very close.
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
Los Angeles, CA
So... you're saying m2k has all the experience needed in this match and it's stuff that he just won't learn to get around?
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
So... you're saying m2k has all the experience needed in this match and it's stuff that he just won't learn to get around?
One should think that M2K knows the match-up pretty well after playing Azen a lot in the past. That should be enough experience, don't you think?

:059:
 

OverLade

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 19, 2006
Messages
8,225
Location
Tampa, FL
But even if M2K did suddenly come back and **** Ksizzle you'd have to ask yourself whether if was Kisizzle getting outsmarted, or M2K understanding his options and beating them out this time. If Lucario has an answer to all of MK's options and vice versa, the matchup is even. The question is if both players were aware of all their options or if there were things M2K wasn't doing...
 

Steel

Where's my Jameson?
BRoomer
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
7,587
Location
Los Angeles, CA
And when was the last time M2K played Azen?

Metagames change, ksizzle is probably using different tactics than Azen did and m2k may have not known how to react properly. Also what redhalberd said.
 

Max Ketchum

Collegiate Starleague Smash Director
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
New Jersey
They played two tournament sets (winners finals and grand finals, eight matches total), ksizzle was all Lucario, minus one match that he went Ice Climbers for (and won). Mew2King DEFINITELY is smart enough to adapt and learn matchups with that amount of time, coupled with his past experience from both Azen AND Lee Martin. They also played a LOT of friendlies outside of tourney before grand finals. Lucario does have answers to almost all of MK's tools.

From above, Lucario's dair will usually trade with MK's uair. This is a bad trade for MK 9 times out of 10. Lucario is not ever forced to approach, whereas MK is regardless of his percent lead. Lucario outboxes MK with jab or ftilt out of shield (both moves have severely underrated range). A smart Lucario can uair through MK's dair camping, footstool -> dair out of tornado, and shield the entire tornado + a dair or two, then punish with Aura Sphere (if they retreated) or grabs if they didn't (between Lucario's super fast, aura-boosted pummel and his 10 damage dthrow/bthrow, this adds up a LOT). Obviously there's more, but I'm not well-versed enough in this matchup that I can write a full summary.

Something else to consider trying out is air release -> Aura Sphere on MK...I would not be surprised if this worked.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom