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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO
- Thread starter OverLade
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Master Raven
Smash Master
Some interesting things:
If you're quick enough, you can edgeguard situationally with Nairs using your last invincibility frames from dropping off the ledge. I notice M2K does this a lot and Seibrik did it to me a lot too, and a lot of the times I did it I'd get stage spiked like 9/10 times, but I recently discovered this can be avoided if you ledge-drop Nair ASAP once you grab the ledge. You can also do this with Dair.
If MK is Uairing your shield from below, you can usually hit him out of it with grounded shuttle loop. The hitbox actually goes a bit below MK. This is especially good on platform happy stages like Battlefield, so you gotta be careful with Uairing MKs.
You CAN hit MK out of the tornado with aerial shuttle loop, but it has to be dead center at the bottom. It's not the most reliable method and isn't gonna happen much, but just some food for thought. I usually like to tornado above MK off-stage just in case.
Don't Ftilt a lot. If you do, usually do it once if you're unsure you're going to hit MK with it, 'cause you can get ****ed over for it.
I don't have much other info to cover right now.
If you're quick enough, you can edgeguard situationally with Nairs using your last invincibility frames from dropping off the ledge. I notice M2K does this a lot and Seibrik did it to me a lot too, and a lot of the times I did it I'd get stage spiked like 9/10 times, but I recently discovered this can be avoided if you ledge-drop Nair ASAP once you grab the ledge. You can also do this with Dair.
If MK is Uairing your shield from below, you can usually hit him out of it with grounded shuttle loop. The hitbox actually goes a bit below MK. This is especially good on platform happy stages like Battlefield, so you gotta be careful with Uairing MKs.
You CAN hit MK out of the tornado with aerial shuttle loop, but it has to be dead center at the bottom. It's not the most reliable method and isn't gonna happen much, but just some food for thought. I usually like to tornado above MK off-stage just in case.
Don't Ftilt a lot. If you do, usually do it once if you're unsure you're going to hit MK with it, 'cause you can get ****ed over for it.
I don't have much other info to cover right now.
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
when you get predictable with it it becomes bad,thats about it really
I'd say Fair isn't entirely necessary in this matchup (unless your opponent is prone to dashgrabbing all the time), but if you use it you should do retreating fastfalled fairs to minimize your opponents ability to punish. If you don't fastfall then it can be dash attacked/dashgrabbed.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
F-tilt ***** everthing but Snake...
Spam it
Spam it
Lol, around dencember and before, I used to win like every meta ditto by spamming ftilt.
I don't win as much dittos anymore.
Ftilt used to **** in MK dittos. I'm noticing that it gets less and less useful the more I ditto MK
smasher01
Smash Ace
yes when i see my opponent rush in i always f-tilt and my spacing messes up and they shield grab me.
now when i see them rush in i will just short hop f-air.Do you think that's the best option?and
down tilt is like the best approach in dittos right?
now when i see them rush in i will just short hop f-air.Do you think that's the best option?and
down tilt is like the best approach in dittos right?
Down tilt is good, but I believe its best to mix up your approaches, because anything gets predictable.
smasher01
Smash Ace
yes but dosent d-tilt beat f-tilt?
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237476
If a couple Meta Knight mains wouldn't mind elaborating on the Diddy match-up that would help us. Tips for us or anything that may help, that would be appreciated.
-Thank you in advance
If a couple Meta Knight mains wouldn't mind elaborating on the Diddy match-up that would help us. Tips for us or anything that may help, that would be appreciated.
-Thank you in advance
Dojo
Smash Champion
Dthrow to reads.
Ftilts.
You win.
Ftilts.
You win.
if they're just running in and shielding to beat your ftilt that shouldn't be a problem, you don't use it when someone runs right at you like that lol
also I've found that I have the most success in ditto's by simply not approaching, ever....
also I've found that I have the most success in ditto's by simply not approaching, ever....
smasher01
Smash Ace
edge guarding tips?
recovering tips?
recovering tips?
Toronto Joe
Smash Master
ness for next discussion
Affinity
Smash Hero
Lucario is scheduled as next week's discussion, unless most people would like to discuss another match-up.
Discuss Olimar like Master Raven said. I can't stand that ******
As a matter of fact I believe the Olimar match-up should be changed to 55:45 MK. Meta needs to approach his opponents due to his lack of projectiles, and Olimar can easily use his fortress of pikmin to bat him away. The only reason I say MK still has the advantage is because MK can gimp him. But MK has to get him off the stage first.
TKD
Smash Lord
I think it's just options vs options. Someone who knows what beats what could make a guide on dittos.
Dash grabs are too good. They're all about timing.
Dash-grabbing (with unpredictable timing) > Whiffing spaced aerials and dtilts
Dairing/fsmashing > dash grabbing
SH/FH Fair > Dairing
Powershielding > MT
Shielding > anything but grab or fsmash, seriously
Offstage, random shuttle loop is amazing against MK. Rising uair is good too, specially if they're way up high at high % considering risk/reward. If you don't perform RISING uairs, they can wait for an uair and FF dair you. Any moment when the opponent is too close, it's nair time, from shield or whatever. Buffered retreating SH nair is good because of shield stun + spacing. You can nair or fair people if they air-dodge through your uair (the best suited aerial depends on how close the opponent is).
To recover, you can mach tornado past your opponent from directly above as shuttle loop protection, while managing to be at the right height from the stage or a platform to land with less lag from it. If they chase, you can just fair too lol. While recovering from below, you can wait for your opponent to attack and then rising uair. If it's safe, there's nothing wrong with just going to the ledge.
When you're at the ledge, they can wait for you while shielding, fairing, dtilting or fsmashing. Just perform lots of safe uairs or something if they're close. If they're fsmashing, you can ledge jump instead of running into the hit by air-dodging or something dumb like that.
To KO it's random offstage shuttle loop > nair > dsmash or something I think. Weird stuff can KO sometimes like Dair at very high %. I don't like shuttle loop from the ground anymore, the opponent may randomly DI it and they can SH punish you from shield, or even dashgrab/shieldgrab if you're predictable enough about the glide. Gliding straight ahead is very random (a m2k thing) and people may fall for it or just uair you I guess.
Do yourself a favor and ignore ftilt and dtilt mix-ups, since they're confusing. I just watch the space between the two characters, and if they're dumb enough to use the 3rd hit of ftilt on a shield, it's a free punish. If they want to grab after tilting, you can grab 1st vs walking grabs or retreating nair on anything else. UpB out of shield may work as well, if the opponent doesn't expect you to retaliate while they're tilting. If they perform slow ftilts, chances are you can unblock and ftilt them back at ftilt's 2nd hit.
This isn't a good guide, I advise against pasting it on the 1st post since it has a bad order, it's badly written, I didn't give it thought and stuff.
IMO MK...
vs IC: 8/2 or 7/3
vs Oli: 7/3 or 6/4
Dash grabs are too good. They're all about timing.
Dash-grabbing (with unpredictable timing) > Whiffing spaced aerials and dtilts
Dairing/fsmashing > dash grabbing
SH/FH Fair > Dairing
Powershielding > MT
Shielding > anything but grab or fsmash, seriously
Offstage, random shuttle loop is amazing against MK. Rising uair is good too, specially if they're way up high at high % considering risk/reward. If you don't perform RISING uairs, they can wait for an uair and FF dair you. Any moment when the opponent is too close, it's nair time, from shield or whatever. Buffered retreating SH nair is good because of shield stun + spacing. You can nair or fair people if they air-dodge through your uair (the best suited aerial depends on how close the opponent is).
To recover, you can mach tornado past your opponent from directly above as shuttle loop protection, while managing to be at the right height from the stage or a platform to land with less lag from it. If they chase, you can just fair too lol. While recovering from below, you can wait for your opponent to attack and then rising uair. If it's safe, there's nothing wrong with just going to the ledge.
When you're at the ledge, they can wait for you while shielding, fairing, dtilting or fsmashing. Just perform lots of safe uairs or something if they're close. If they're fsmashing, you can ledge jump instead of running into the hit by air-dodging or something dumb like that.
To KO it's random offstage shuttle loop > nair > dsmash or something I think. Weird stuff can KO sometimes like Dair at very high %. I don't like shuttle loop from the ground anymore, the opponent may randomly DI it and they can SH punish you from shield, or even dashgrab/shieldgrab if you're predictable enough about the glide. Gliding straight ahead is very random (a m2k thing) and people may fall for it or just uair you I guess.
Do yourself a favor and ignore ftilt and dtilt mix-ups, since they're confusing. I just watch the space between the two characters, and if they're dumb enough to use the 3rd hit of ftilt on a shield, it's a free punish. If they want to grab after tilting, you can grab 1st vs walking grabs or retreating nair on anything else. UpB out of shield may work as well, if the opponent doesn't expect you to retaliate while they're tilting. If they perform slow ftilts, chances are you can unblock and ftilt them back at ftilt's 2nd hit.
This isn't a good guide, I advise against pasting it on the 1st post since it has a bad order, it's badly written, I didn't give it thought and stuff.
IMO MK...
vs IC: 8/2 or 7/3
vs Oli: 7/3 or 6/4
Affinity
Smash Hero
Next week's match-up has been changed to Olimar; let's stick to the MK mirror for now.
One thing you cant do in MK dittos is using the multiple jump dair approach.
Dair approach is hard to pull of vs. small characters and MK with his great aerials can punish it really easy. Up B also works to punish it.
Tornado isnt really safe to use in MK Dittos. Its really easy to attack the nado or DI out of it.
You can just stay in the tornado and press A multiple times and you will auto hit them with NAir.
MK maybe can get 5%-10% with one tornado, if you dont want to get punished for using it.
This move really sucks in Dittos. But one goof function is punishen MKs Up B with Tornado.
Tornado > Glide/UP B.
So better use aerials to beat the tornado. UAir is better to beat it than Up B.
Dair approach is hard to pull of vs. small characters and MK with his great aerials can punish it really easy. Up B also works to punish it.
Tornado isnt really safe to use in MK Dittos. Its really easy to attack the nado or DI out of it.
You can just stay in the tornado and press A multiple times and you will auto hit them with NAir.
MK maybe can get 5%-10% with one tornado, if you dont want to get punished for using it.
This move really sucks in Dittos. But one goof function is punishen MKs Up B with Tornado.
Tornado > Glide/UP B.
So better use aerials to beat the tornado. UAir is better to beat it than Up B.
If you think and act like this, then you will loose to M2K more often in the future, dojo. MU changed a bit. FAir approaching seems to work better than FTilt.
ksizl4life
Smash Hero
lol we should discuss ness after what happened yesterday
Affinity
Smash Hero
I can't wait til the vids get released lol
What happened? Did M2K get beat by a Ness player or something?
Affinity
Smash Hero
FOW, a 13 year old Ness player, beat Tyrant (MK) in bracket and took a game off M2K at Smash In Nevada yesterday.
1. M2K
2. SK92
3. DieSuperFly
4. FoW
5. Tyrant
5. Havok
7. Z
7. DEHF
1. M2K
2. SK92
3. DieSuperFly
4. FoW
5. Tyrant
5. Havok
7. Z
7. DEHF
ShadowPhoenix951
Smash Ace
Yeah, Fow.
Edit: Meant to be a response to Gates' question.
Edit: Meant to be a response to Gates' question.
TKD
Smash Lord
If you exclude M2K, there's no proof that EC>WC lol.
They can just Fair that or something...MT is good as an unpredictable move. With correct timing, the opponent can't react to it, but you also have to know how to perform it so they can't get out or that you're moving away as they get their chance to hit you back. Just ask Sean I guess. Also it's a good recovery if they're offstage below you, where they can only reach you with the ineffective Shuttle Loop. Not a good edgeguard though.
goodkid
Smash Lord
Not many know this, but Ness is good vs MK. The Match is 60:40. Ness has high priority aerials, and his dair is like a magnet vs MK. All of his aerials are really good, and a back-throw @ like 110 will KO MK. I was actually thinking of switching to Ness vs MK. I may now because of FOW's performance. This goes to show you that Ness is actually viable vs MK.Vids or it didn't happen.....
Camping with MK is good to the point where it's not fun at all.
Most MK players would rather play aggressive (still have the advantage) and take that risk.
Polmex23 (Luigi) beat me in a friendly while I was playing normally. Then I nearly 2 stock low %ed him twice by camping. Its good to the point where some characters simply can't beat it and it's not fun either....
Most MK players would rather play aggressive (still have the advantage) and take that risk.
Polmex23 (Luigi) beat me in a friendly while I was playing normally. Then I nearly 2 stock low %ed him twice by camping. Its good to the point where some characters simply can't beat it and it's not fun either....
I don't want to hear people be surprised/have their opinions of a matchup change once they lose/hear about someone good losing to a character like Ness though. I think that part of it is the community being mislead a bit on some of the better players who use MK when they lose; they are considered the best players of him, but it doesn't mean they necessarily use the most effective strategy when they need to, hence even they are prone to losing to characters who normally lose to MK. If there are some clear actions that would have resulted in a bigger advantage, I'm gonna remind people of them, regardless of how boring it is lol.
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