MELEE-FC10R Legacy...is done!

[Rusty Shacklefurd]

I would like to go on the record as being an ICs main who f****** loves playing on Brinstar.

 

[ORLY]

as a falcon, i can say that all of these stages ****

don't be a girly man

 

[omgwtfToph]

I guess my only beef with the stage list is that it seems kind of bad for Falcon. Good thing I play Fox!

edit: nvm ORLY's cool with it so WHATEVER

edit edit: btw I think this stagelist helps Fox more than Peach lol

 

[Overswarm]

wait its mk banned?
man this tourney keeps getting better and better

Hell yeah he is.


*high five*

 

[baka4moé]

wow wtf at these melee stages. honestly i think that will just reduce attendance, since those that are iffy about going will have more of a reason not to imo...

like mushroom kingdom 2? wut

 

[KishSquared]

Don't forget about stage striking and permabans/slobs. Striking ensures a neutral starting stage, and advanced slob picks ensures that you know the level prior to selecting your character. If the counterpick is Mute City, don't play ICs if you think you'll lose.

Yes, certain characters are worse/better with this ruleset. Just keep in mind that this doesn't make the game better/worst. It's just different. And better yet, it's old-school. Just be glad we didn't turn on items.

Join Date: Jun 2008

Oh why hello there. I'd like you to meet the kishes. They are awesome.

 

[Overswarm]

"Japes/Brinstar/Mute/MK2, to me, seems like about the biggest Fox stage nerf one could possibly add in this game."

Japes and MK2 are amazing Fox stages. (High ceiling doesn't change much on a stage that can be so dominated by Fox mobility/pressure into terrible situations.) Mute is a pretty good fox stage vs several characters, and Brinstar probably isn't but at the same time it has big advantages against some characters (ICs for example.)

Honestly this stagelist is nearly unplayable for the ICs and although nobody really cares about that, it is sad to see a decent character just crossed off the list of playability.

EDIT: I guess it will be the return of the wobble here at FC.

It's a good thing Chu Dat didn't have to deal with these stages.


Whatever happened to "No Johns" in this community? It's like people expect their character to be personally considered whenever a ruleset is created, as if they're poor little baby (character) deserves to be good and the stagelist should reflect it as such. I never understood that.

Captain Falcon is a fun, fun character. He's also pretty awful, and always has been. But the fact that our starting stage has always been a stage that's been good for him (fountain of dreams at worst) has allowed him to do much better than he would on stages like kongo falls or Onett or what have you. As the bans increased, characters that were really versatile like Fox became less important while characters that were more constricted, such as ICs or Falcon, became better.

This kind of artificial inflation/deflatoin happens naturally as bans occur. You might find a single character is like the character to play on a stage (rarer than you think), or it overcomes the innate randomness bar the game itself factors in, doesn't have consistent results, etc., etc., and that's perfectly normal. Fox would be awesome on Brinstar Depths just running out the timer, and Jiggs would love it too I'd imagine... but the stage itself implies it should be illegal. So, Fox/Jiggs become slightly worse, but not illogically so.

But when people just assume that a stage like Brinstar Depths should be banned because (character X) isn't as good on it or it's too far removed from "flat/plat", it just blows my mind.

 

[stingers]

People started banning stages they didnt like instead of considering what actually should/shouldnt be legal is what happened. Its starting to happen in brawl now too =[ some people want sv/fd/bf only -,- I dont get it...

 

[Overswarm]

I wanted Japes/Picto on the stagelist, but just Norfair seems to be the best compromise.

 

[ORLY]

**** it, i'd still go if all the stages were on

let's turn it up

EDIT: probably not like brinstar depths though. that stage is just awful

it's important to remember how many stages are going to be banned, like kish² said.

EDIT AGAIN: baka you better not john out. i want to fight you again

 

[Strong Badam]

the kind of people that wouldn't attend a melee tourney of this epicness just because of a few stages (that the ban list prevent you from playing on two of the non-standard ones anyway) are just silly and i think we can have a fun event without 'em

 

[baka4moé]

eh just noticed the 3 permabans i guess that makes it a tiny bit better lol

ill probably still go tho if i can, lame ruleset but probably still fun tourney anyway...

i just hope this doesnt become a staple, i guess since this tournament is to bring the old-school back it makes sense for this particular one

edit: ya orly itd be nice to play u again. i think i got a little better! ...not against falcon tho

 

[Dees]

I have never played MK II in tourney but it seems pretty fun actually. Any old schoolers with opinions?

 

[Hylian]

I have never played MK II in tourney but it seems pretty fun actually. Any old schoolers with opinions?

Play on the stage.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

with stage striking these stages aint no thang. ima start gettin that ganon good on brimstar

 

[ORLY]

yeah basically try to be wary of guys like doc, samus, DK, pika, peach

those with implosion hitboxes and amazing backthrows

 

[Big_R]

with stage striking these stages aint no thang. ima start gettin that ganon good on brimstar

***bigrstar***

 

[Juggleguy]

I would really hate to have to face ORLY at this tourney.

 

[.Ðempt]

This is gunna be my childhood relived all over again

 

[PEEF!]

Whatever happened to "No Johns" in this community? It's like people expect their character to be personally considered whenever a ruleset is created, as if they're poor little baby (character) deserves to be good and the stagelist should reflect it as such. I never understood that.

Part of the purpose of our stagelists is to increase the balance of the game character-wise. The more viable characters, the better, (although other things matter as well.) This list knocks down several decent characters to worthlessness, boosts several good characters, and completely and totally eliminates most low-tiers. If you don't value balance in a fighting game, then perhaps none of this matters to you. You are a MK player so I wouldn't expect you to understand that having the odds stacked against you even worse than they had to be seems like a big "**** you" in the name of what, fun? coolness? Losing to players that are worse than you simply because your character is not guaranteed at least 2 even remotely balanced-ish stages (when they were with the other ruleset) is discouraging, especially when it can be (and was easily) avoided.

Second point: This tournament will be seen by many people outside of smash, and when we are playing on these ridiculous stages with people dying to random and effectively random stage elements, it will look like the joke that the rest of the world already thinks smash is. You can always say "**** em we don't need them or care what they think" but people that are interested in joining this community now will be the ones hosting tournaments for us older folks to go to and developing the metagame further as we play less. Considerations like this one I think deserve at least a thought.

 

[MasterShake]

MkII seems like such a...dangerous stage.

 

[KishSquared]

"People outside the Smash community will think Smash is a joke if we play these stages."

Such a 2005 argument. People outside the Smash community ALREADY think Smash is a joke, and it has nothing to do with stagelists.

 

[Overswarm]

Part of the purpose of our stagelists is to increase the balance of the game character-wise. The more viable characters, the better, (although other things matter as well.) This list knocks down several decent characters to worthlessness, boosts several good characters, and completely and totally eliminates most low-tiers. If you don't value balance in a fighting game, then perhaps none of this matters to you. You are a MK player so I wouldn't expect you to understand that having the odds stacked against you even worse than they had to be seems like a big "f*ck you" in the name of what, fun? coolness? Losing to players that are worse than you simply because your character is not guaranteed at least 2 even remotely balanced-ish stages (when they were with the other ruleset) is discouraging, especially when it can be (and was easily) avoided.

Second point: This tournament will be seen by many people outside of smash, and when we are playing on these ridiculous stages with people dying to random and effectively random stage elements, it will look like the joke that the rest of the world already thinks smash is. You can always say "f*ckem we don't need them or care what they think" but people that are interested in joining this community now will be the ones hosting tournaments for us older folks to go to and developing the metagame further as we play less. Considerations like this one I think deserve at least a thought.

Look man, you obviously don't know who I am or what I stand for. I've been pushing to have MK banned for years. I understand the need to have character balance, but arbitrarily banning stages and arbitrarily choosing which characters get better/worse isn't really how you do it. If you were striving for "character balance" alone you'd probably have plenty of surgical bans you could do, such as getting rid of Sheik so low tiers could have a chance. But you wouldn't do that because that's silly.

The high tiers in the game are already established, and most of them just happen to be proficient on flat/plat stages. When you take away stages that require versatility and mobility, characters like Marth get a lot better. Jigglypuff is awful at chasing people vertically, and Fox destroys her on Kongo Falls, no question. Jiggs literally can't catch Fox, neither can Peach. So on and so forth.

Some of the stages, like Kongo Falls, have pretty good reasoning to ban them. After they are banned, a character that does poorly on that stage, like Peach or Jiggs, gets a little bit better while characters that did well on that stage, such as Fox, gets a little bit worse. When you say "only flat/plat" stages, you're going to see that characters that do the best on flat/plat stages do better.

Stage bans have never been about arbitrarily making characters better or worse, that's all Punch Time!

 

[KishPrime]

Part of the purpose of our stagelists is to increase the balance of the game character-wise. The more viable characters, the better, (although other things matter as well.) This list knocks down several decent characters to worthlessness, boosts several good characters, and completely and totally eliminates most low-tiers. If you don't value balance in a fighting game, then perhaps none of this matters to you. You are a MK player so I wouldn't expect you to understand that having the odds stacked against you even worse than they had to be seems like a big "**** you" in the name of what, fun? coolness? Losing to players that are worse than you simply because your character is not guaranteed at least 2 even remotely balanced-ish stages (when they were with the other ruleset) is discouraging, especially when it can be (and was easily) avoided.

Second point: This tournament will be seen by many people outside of smash, and when we are playing on these ridiculous stages with people dying to random and effectively random stage elements, it will look like the joke that the rest of the world already thinks smash is. You can always say "**** em we don't need them or care what they think" but people that are interested in joining this community now will be the ones hosting tournaments for us older folks to go to and developing the metagame further as we play less. Considerations like this one I think deserve at least a thought.

Your statements are opinions, and what's more, they are delivered in a condescending matter that suggests you aren't open to realize they are opinions.

These points have been rehashed 5,000,000 times in the history of these boards. Rulesets are not designed for balance and character variety. If they were designed for balance and character variety, then Sheik would probably be banned. They're not designed to eliminate randomness, else Peach, G+W, and Luigi would be banned.

Most rulesets are designed based on individual preference, and most people that design rulesets prefer stages where combos are more important than stage management and control. 90% of people that want to ban Brinstar and Mute could care less about ICs. They just have an opinion over what Smash is, and that opinion is different from mine and the other people who are excited by the inclusion of more stages.

Smash is unique amongst fighting games. Stages play a critical role in defining every single matchup, indeed, matchups do not even exist without the context of stage. There is no "normal" or "neutral" stage in this game. Pretending that there is just gives people a false high ground from which to preach.

We like to include as much of Melee as we can get away with, within a competitive context that respects game-breaking factors, because we try not to be the arbiters of its content. In this case, we actually compromised quite a bit from our usual standards - in reality MBR-ruleset players can ban 3 stages every time and only have to pick up the 2 that they prefer the most. This isn't a radical departure from the MBR ruleset.

And perhaps the most important thing to remember is that even when we had 26 stages on, the best players still won and results were relatively consistent without a game-breaking explanation. While I agree they are important, stages are far less relevant to victory than people make them out to be.

 

[Fregadero]

MKII is the best stage

 

[Hylian]

You are a MK player so I wouldn't expect you to understand that having the odds stacked against you even worse than they had to be seems like a big "f*ck you" in the name of what, fun? coolness?

LOL oh my god the irony.

 

[Overswarm]

LOL oh my god the irony.

I know, right?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yo peef. just ban em. lol. i'd say if you ban brinstar, cruise, and i guess mute city, the worst you'd have to deal with is like MKII and all the neutrals *shrug* i think ICs are still playable there.

i mean, the character is ***. that's just something you have to deal with lol. as i heard someone say, they're a low tier character with some high tier gimmicks.

plus, with that new "how to beat IC's" thread, it's not like IC's are gonna win any sets here at this tournament anyway lololololol

 

[Yeroc]

ITT: People who've probably never ever played a tournament set on any of the stages they're complaining about. Just sayin'

I'm excited to play around again with some old standbys I haven't seen in a while.

 

[PEEF!]

Of course what I am saying is my opinion, and these arguments have been gone over a thousand times, but the debate goes on.

There is a balance to be struck between balance, keeping in as much as possible, improving gameplay, etc. I just think the balance of this list is detrimental in some ways, and I was at least making sure somebody mentioned the concerns, because some players will certainly be affected.

Yeroc, when I joined, Brinstar and RC were official and standard counterpicks, and I was taken to one of them in almost every set.

I've said my piece on the matter, and now that it's out there I'm off of it.

I apologize for the accusatory/condescending tone, especially to Overswarm.

 

[bertbusdriver]

liking the expanded stagelist.

PEEF: i think a lot of characters have a few stages for which they have death matchups on this 11-stage stagelist. But keep in mind that your first 3 stage strikes are banned for the rest of the set, as are your opponent's. While I share some of your concern, I'd give this ruleset a chance before dismissing it entirely. I'm sure a few locals will be run with this ruleset leading up to FC for practice, and we will have a chance to see how this actually plays out.

btw hope you're back from england before fall semester. need someone to help make sure the stream for the next SMYM isn't a total disaster like last time

 

[Prince_Abu]

stagelist looks interesting worth a shot i guess

 

[MuraRengan]

I'm not a big fan of the stagelist, but I am a big fan of Melee and fun so w/e. Banning stages I don't like seems like a good enough alternative.

That said, I do think the Kishes are being a little bit insensitive toward the hypercompetitive crowd. There are people who take this game as more of a professional sport than a hobby, and that's totally fine and should be respected/considered when hosting a national. I mean, a tournament this big is going to get pretty serious, so I can see where people would want rules to conform to the norm, and honestly MK2 still sounds like a big joke. I know the Kishes aren't going to change anything and it doesn't affect me much at all, but from an argumentative standpoint I side with PEEF as long as the majority of players who still take this game seriously would rather a more traditional ruleset.

 

[KishPrime]

That said, I do think the Kishes are being a little bit insensitive toward the hypercompetitive crowd. There are people who take this game as more of a professional sport than a hobby, and that's totally fine and should be respected/considered when hosting a national.

I'm pretty sure we're a part of that crowd. Believing that Melee is a bigger game than 5 stages doesn't exclude you from hypercompetition and professionalism. We may not have won national tournaments, but we did pretty dang well. We played the game seriously and to win. Frankly, we pushed the community as hard as anyone toward the play-to-win mentality and struck out at splitters wherever we could.

We just have some different beliefs about what makes up the game. Don't mistake that for a lack of seriousness.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Im gonna need housing for this, is any available?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But keep in mind that your first 3 stage strikes are banned for the rest of the set, as are your opponent's.

Is that how this is working? We don't get to ban separately from the strike?

 

[MasterC]

I'm pretty sure we're a part of that crowd. Believing that Melee is a bigger game than 5 stages doesn't exclude you from hypercompetition and professionalism. We may not have won national tournaments, but we did pretty dang well. We played the game seriously and to win. Frankly, we pushed the community as hard as anyone toward the play-to-win mentality and struck out at splitters wherever we could.

We just have some different beliefs about what makes up the game. Don't mistake that for a lack of seriousness.

AGREED, i like the direction you guys are taking this... "hypercompetitive" doesn't necessarily mean FOX ON FD ONLY

lol

 

[KishPrime]

Is that how this is working? We don't get to ban separately from the strike?

The first three strikes are your permabans for the set. So five stages will be open for the set after both sides ban three, then you progress through the strike the rest of the way to your first stage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't know if I like that... My strike strategy is very different from my ban strategy. Oftentimes I do my first few strikes just to find out information about the opponent. Generally I don't strike the "worst" stages first, i do those last because possibly my opponent will like the stage less than me and give me an advantage in the strike. Also, banning normally happens by the winner of the first game first, so having it this way is different as well. Like the rest of this ruleset, I suppose I just have to adapt my strategies

 

[baka4moé]

yeah what i liked about being to ban after playing game 1 was so that i could ban stuff based on information i got from playing my opponent...makes more sense to me... like that seems more conducive to competition right?