MELEE-FC10R Legacy...is done!

[KishSquared]

We just have some different beliefs about what makes up the game. Don't mistake that for a lack of seriousness.

Well said. The stagelist isn't a goofy set of rules so we can 'have fun'. We consider these stages to be competitive, just as we did back in the days of prior FCs. Many, many players agree, just as many, many players disagree. That's the definition of a divisive topic - not everyone will agree with you regardless of your stance.

As such, we firmly believe this is a strong compromise between 5-stages and FC-stages of old. PokeFloats is off - this is proof of our commitment to find middle-ground, lol. Lots of discussion was put into stages, and not just within the Ship. KishPrime consulted many people across the nation about rules, and he received a lot of feedback. The result is what we have posted.

This tournament is about the BEST of Smash, both old-school and new-school. It's meant to instill a fiercely competitive play-to-win environment between unretired players and newcomers. We believe very firmly that we've accomplished this with the ruleset, and we're well aware there will be people who disagree

 

[KishPrime]

Regarding the timing of bans, I understand what you're saying because I think the same way. Part of this is a practical time-saving concern. There are logistics that have to be considered in everything. By doing the banning/striking all at once, we'll save more time than you realize. 1-2 less decisions per set, especially one as complicated as 3 bans, will add up extremely fast.

Settling it up front just changes the strategy and makes it more about what you bring to the table. For 90% of players, 90% of the time, the bans will be the same given the character matchup anyway, so I don't think this is too odd of a trade-off, if the case can even be made that it is, in fact, a negative one.

 

[Tink]

can players agree to do their bans afterward? just like agreeing to the MBR5 if they want?
i dont think its gonna take up as much time as you might be thinking....most ppl are gonna have set bans for 2 of the stages, with the 3rd prolly being char dependent most of the time....i know i wont rem the first 6 stages striked easily, and trying to rem them will proabably take up more time anyway 0_o.

 

[KishPrime]

Let's put it this way. This isn't the biggest deal in the world to us. This is certainly more negotiable than the stagelist.

I don't think changing this rule will sway more than 1 set out of 1000 in the end which is why I'd rather go with the logistic bonus, but that may just be me. If you can convince me that this will actually have an effect on the end-result of sets at a higher rate (and not just a perceived effect), feel free to put some more thoughts out there and we can think about changing it.

 

[Big_R]

tink wuts wrong with u this is obvy part of the ruleset. if u and ur opponent dont remember the stages striked, regroup and make ones up!

these mindgames boi

 

[MattDotZeb]

I absolutely love the throw-back stagelist the Kishes have put on for this. Especially that players can agree to use the "normal" list of 5-stages if they really don't want to use any of the new ones put on.

This is fantastic.

 

[ORLY]

i think the striking system is gonna be fun

just pay attention and remember what was struck first

 

[omgwtfToph]

yeah to be honest

the stage list, COUPLED WITH THE BAN SYSTEM, is honestly LESS "weird" than Genesis 1's stage list and rule set

in that tournament say you were a Fox fighting Peach. you got only 1 ban, and all of Mute City, Brinstar and Kongo Jungle 64 were legal, so you were gonna have to put up with some bull**** regardless. remember Armada taking EVERYONE to Mute City and cleaning the floor with them? and on the flipside, Rainbow Cruise, Corneria and Stadium were all legal so Fox would get a ridiculous counterpick too

and it wasn't too long ago that M2K/Hungrybox kept having to fight PP on Rainbow Cruise.

so suck it up lol.

 

[john!]

yeah i don't care how many stages are legal, as long as we have enough input on which stages we really don't want.

i'd be down for an "all stages legal" tournament where each player gets 12 permabans

 

[Dr Peepee]

If they wouldn't have banned stadium I would've went to stadium gladly instead of RC

also it happened like 1 time to each person lol

 

[ORLY]

pp i wanna play you at this

@oro: i see you creepin' (not you bzoo)

 

[omgwtfToph]

If they wouldn't have banned stadium I would've went to stadium gladly instead of RC

also it happened like 1 time to each person lol

right, and my point is that with this ruleset you'd probably only need to play on one weird stage per set if you use your bans right

 

[Dr Peepee]

pp i wanna play you at this

@oro: i see you creepin' (not you bzoo)

let's battle! Love fighting Falcon

right, and my point is that with this ruleset you'd probably only need to play on one weird stage per set if you use your bans right

I was just nit-picking lol. Assuming someone doesn't go cheap and use their 3 bans on what we consider "neutral" stages, then yeah I agree.

 

[MattDotZeb]

I was just nit-picking lol. Assuming someone doesn't go cheap and use their 3 bans on what we consider "neutral" stages, then yeah I agree.

This is my plan :D

So long yoshi's, FoD, and battlefield! Hello fun stages!

 

[Overswarm]

Me too @ MattDotZeb :B

 

[Bl@ckChris]

...oh **** i did not consider that possibility...

ganon fox seems significantly more scary without battlefield, dreamland, or yoshi's/FD to possibly end up on...jesus...

 

[Strong Badam]

I think players would do best if rather than consider how a character improves/gets worse with this stagelist compared to what we're used to, the consider how a character improved/got worse arbitrarily when these stages were banned, and that this is reversing that change that perhaps wasn't made with the most justification.

 

[Violence]

What irks me about the stagelist is simply

Why is it that we have Mute City, Japes, MK2(of all ****ing places, MK2)

But Kongo is banned? KJ64 has been legal for the longest time, and it's a great large stage that doesn't allow grapple recovery, and doesn't have a flat bottom.

I would've honestly been behind this ruleset a lot more if Kongo Jungle was in there instead of MK2.

Let's take a look at Floaty vs Fox.

MBR5: Floaty vs Fox usually strikes to Battlefield. If the Floaty wins, they get to ban Stadium/YS/DL64, depending on the floaty and their decision. If the Fox wins, they get to ban FoD/DL64/FD, depending on the floaty and their decision.

FC Stages: Floaties will most likely remove MK2, Japes, and Cruise. Fox will most likely ban Brinstar, Mute City, and either FoD/DL64/or FD.

Wait... that leaves us with a situation that's strictly worse than MBR5.

Let's take a closer look.

MBR Neutral:
Yoshi Story
FoD
Battlefield
DL64
FD

MBR CP:
PK Stadium(generally space animal favored)

So we have 5 stages that are roughly neutral, and a counterpick for space animals.

Now we add 5 stages.

Mute City (Floaties)
Brinstar (Floaties)
MK2 (Spacies)
Cruise (Spacies)
Japes (Spacies)

Please correct me if I'm wrong on the what favors who, but isn't this a bit weird? We're adding 3 stages that are generally space animal favored, and only two for Floaties, when there's already 5 neutral and 1 generally accepted space animal counterpick.

I would be absolutely for this ruleset if we replaced MK2 with KJ64, which is much more of a floaty counterpick, evening out the list.

Floaties would ban Cruise, Japes, and either Stadium/YS/DL/FD, and Space Animals would ban Mute City, Brinstar, and either KJ/FoD/DL/FD. In most of these situations, we would end up with Battlefield and two stages that floaties prefer and two stages that spacies prefer.

Isn't this a better idea than the above?

I would at least like to hear your reasoning as to why KJ64 is banned.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

because numbers and teams and things?

 

[PEEF!]

What irks me about the stagelist is simply

Why is it that we have Mute City, Japes, MK2(of all ****ing places, MK2)

But Kongo is banned? KJ64 has been legal for the longest time, and it's a great large stage that doesn't allow grapple recovery, and doesn't have a flat bottom.

I would've honestly been behind this ruleset a lot more if Kongo Jungle was in there instead of MK2.

Let's take a look at Floaty vs Fox.

MBR5: Floaty vs Fox usually strikes to Battlefield. If the Floaty wins, they get to ban Stadium/YS/DL64, depending on the floaty and their decision. If the Fox wins, they get to ban FoD/DL64/FD, depending on the floaty and their decision.

FC Stages: Floaties will most likely remove MK2, Japes, and Cruise. Fox will most likely ban Brinstar, Mute City, and either FoD/DL64/or FD.

Wait... that leaves us with a situation that's strictly worse than MBR5.

Let's take a closer look.

MBR Neutral:
Yoshi Story
FoD
Battlefield
DL64
FD

MBR CP:
PK Stadium(generally space animal favored)

So we have 5 stages that are roughly neutral, and a counterpick for space animals.

Now we add 5 stages.

Mute City (Floaties)
Brinstar (Floaties)
MK2 (Spacies)
Cruise (Spacies)
Japes (Spacies)

Please correct me if I'm wrong on the what favors who, but isn't this a bit weird? We're adding 3 stages that are generally space animal favored, and only two for Floaties, when there's already 5 neutral and 1 generally accepted space animal counterpick.

I would be absolutely for this ruleset if we replaced MK2 with KJ64, which is much more of a floaty counterpick, evening out the list.

Floaties would ban Cruise, Japes, and either Stadium/YS/DL/FD, and Space Animals would ban Mute City, Brinstar, and either KJ/FoD/DL/FD. In most of these situations, we would end up with Battlefield and two stages that floaties prefer and two stages that spacies prefer.

Isn't this a better idea than the above?

I would at least like to hear your reasoning as to why KJ64 is banned.

This was my original point, but broken down to show that things get better for spacies and worse for floaties. Saying that this stagelist is somehow bad for spacies doesn't seem to be right, because spacies will have nothing to worry about with 3 bans, but floaties absolutely will. Will the best players rise to the top? Yes, because the best players are generally space animal players. Will Dart be top 5 at this tourney, even though he has shown he is top 1-2 in the region? I doubt it if he plays his main...

 

[Overswarm]

Yes, because the best players are generally space animal players.

 

[Quaz]

isnt fox good on Kongo? he can just run away and shoot lasers and still kill with usmash anyways.

He also has those 2 high platforms making it much easier for him to recover. Peach and Puff can't really punish that.

 

[Scythe]

fox isn't that strong on mk2 lol. not sure if you guys are overestimating waveshines

 

[Rosedemon]

I think writing MK2 off as a spacies stage is either inexperience or extreme bias.

I could definitely see myself cping a spacies player there.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

nah, we're probably overestimating waveshine to usmash/dsmash/grab -> uthrow-> uair and lasers on the sides where you have to approach from below in an obvious manner, things of that sort. at least thats the kind of thing that scares me about it *especially that last part*

 

[KishPrime]

I already noted that the stagelist wasn't made to balance characters. And the reason for that is illustrated by the follow-up discussion. People are never 100% in agreement about matchups on stages.

That said, if you want to have a discussion on it, happy to participate. I don't see KJ64 as clearly favoring floaties. Fox and Falco certainly have the ability to circle the stage and abuse their better vertical movement. It's so highly vertical that characters who have limited vertical movement are hurt by it, as was already said. In terms of favoring conflict, which most people tend to prefer, pretty much every other stage on the list does it better.

Also, you highlight the MBR5 as totally neutral between floaties and spacies to suggest a contrast with the additional stages. This seems like an odd decision. You really think that there's no favoring either way on any of those? I think the argument can be made that some of the additional stages are more even on specific matchups than on the neutrals.

 

[Prince_Abu]

kongo isnt that good for floaties due to laser camping

but mk2 is kind of a silly stage for competitive play i think but besides mk2 this ruleset is fine

 

[Kal]

Kish, this stage list is amazing. The first six strikes being banned for the remainder of the set is a good compromise between all the people wanting to ban everything and those of us who aren't scrubs.

 

[PEEF!]

I already noted that the stagelist wasn't made to balance characters. And the reason for that is illustrated by the follow-up discussion. People are never 100% in agreement about matchups on stages.

That said, if you want to have a discussion on it, happy to participate. I don't see KJ64 as clearly favoring floaties. Fox and Falco certainly have the ability to circle the stage and abuse their better vertical movement. It's so highly vertical that characters who have limited vertical movement are hurt by it, as was already said. In terms of favoring conflict, which most people tend to prefer, pretty much every other stage on the list does it better.

Also, you highlight the MBR5 as totally neutral between floaties and spacies to suggest a contrast with the additional stages. This seems like an odd decision. You really think that there's no favoring either way on any of those? I think the argument can be made that some of the additional stages are more even on specific matchups than on the neutrals.

Although a theoretical case could be made for KJ, spacies don't often pick it, and for good reason. I'm sure it has maybe been picked by this person or that person a couple times, but in general, the fact that there are no walls to ride up, no edgetechs to be made, no upb sweetspot to be hit, no (traditional) sideb sweetspot, etc make it one of the easiest stages to edgeguard spacies on in any map pool. The upper plat comes into play less often than is pointed out in theory (esp. for Falco) and floaties usually find it much more helpful and accessible.

The runaway laser style I haven't seen work against good players for years on KJ. People know how to deal with that, especially on a stage that is so unforgiving for spacies once they are off of it. Floaties have a much easier time timing people out here.

 

[Kal]

Obviously, my experience is strictly local, but I find that I do pretty well against just about the entire cast on Kongo Jungle when I am Fox. If a player knows how to adequately handle run-away and laser strategies, it becomes harder, but I think Fox still has an overwhelming advantage there in most matchups.

 

[shadrach kabango]

I actually thought we left some substantial cushion in the schedule.

for me i want as much melee as possible. don't care about other games, never have and never will. it's already impossible to play as many friendlies with as many people as you want, and having all these side events suck up friendlies and money matches, which are what really make the tournament to me, blows, especially considering i'm paying for it without the option not to.

trail i highly doubt we'll ever meet but let's mm for $20

 

[MuraRengan]

for me i want as much melee as possible. don't care about other games, never have and never will. it's already impossible to play as many friendlies with as many people as you want, and having all these side events suck up friendlies and money matches, which are what really make the tournament to me, blows, especially considering i'm paying for it without the option not to.

trail i highly doubt we'll ever meet but let's mm for $20

then run your own goddamn tournament

 

[ShroudedOne]

The sides of MKII seem like they'd impair characters with slow jumps/limited approaches by a bit, because I could, in theory, camp those sides, and you wouldn't be able to get to me without a good projectile, or without making an obvious jump towards me, both of which I should be able to feasible react to. But that is only theory, as I've never played on the stage.

You can also just ban it. Don't see what the issue is. The rules with regards to the bans and such are an almost flawless compromise.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

MK2 is actually a really unique stage but still fairly similar to the neutrals. Imagine that the top areas are the middle platforms and approaches to the center work similarly to approaches to the center of, say, pokemon stadium.. The downside is that defensive strategies like camping under platforms and top platform camping simply can't exist. On the other hand there is camping on the top half, but the characters that are good on the stage have ways around this: linear projectile, high range/priority attack, etc.

All in all, the only thing that really bothers me about the stage are the hazards, but they are usually about as influential as randall

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i need to get good at catching eggs. i used to be good at it a long time ago when i was casual and played FFAs on random stages, but since then, they've magically become uncatchable. i've gotten so used to catching turnips that a straight projectile is fail to me now lol. bomb eggs were godlike back in the day...

 

[Kal]

5. No stage may be played twice, unless both players agree

Why this rule instead of Dave's Stupid Rule? Seems a little strange that I can't pick a stage that has been played before if I have yet to win there.

 

[Violence]

I think writing MK2 off as a spacies stage is either inexperience or extreme bias.

I could definitely see myself cping a spacies player there.

Inexperience is entirely possible. I thought the reason it was banned in the first place was waveshine to death was too good. I tend to dislike close sides anyways, which really makes me miss my KJ64.

KJ64's center part is lowered enough so that lasers don't hit you. Every time I've played someone who just runs away and lasers, they have a difficult time pressuring me, and I can usually eventually corner them to the sides and do damage. It's not really like Dream Land because they can't go up and over and around you. At least, in my experience.

Either way, I still wish you guys kept KJ64.

 

[Overswarm]

5. No stage may be played twice, unless both players agree

Why this rule instead of Dave's Stupid Rule? Seems a little strange that I can't pick a stage that has been played before if I have yet to win there.

tee hee hee XD

 

[Bl@ckChris]

oh holy...that rule scares me...it means that if i somehow struck to a neutral, or at least a decent CP like stadium, and lost, i can't even go back to the sort of normal stage, and if they ban all the normal neutrals...

mother of god...

 

[Strong Badam]

all yours, tim!