MELEE-FC10R Legacy...is done!

[baka4moé]

yea hopefully ill still have fun lol =/

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, the thing that scares me about this ruleset isn't how much counterpicks are allowed, it's how much neutral can be banned lol. my ganon's bout to get exposed at this tournament...i can't waveland like a sexy beast without the proper land base

guess it's time to actually get good at the game, instead of just regular platform movement tricks to make my character viable...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm sorta indifferent on the bans before striking thing. On the one hand, its more interesting to be able to strike and bluff/call bluffs on the strike and ban later. On the other hand, it can just be thought of as making a custom 5 stage list for each set.

 

[Anand]

Will Dart be top 5 at this tourney, even though he has shown he is top 1-2 in the region? I doubt it if he plays his main...

When Dart places outside top 5, will it be because of the ruleset or because this isn't a Midwest local? I doubt it if Hbox/Mango/PP/M2K/Armada happen to show up...

 

[baka4moé]

has there been any interest from europe yet for this? jw

 

[omgwtfToph]

so I guess I'll go ahead and ask in advance, but does anyone cool from some other region wanna team at this? I'm pretty good at teams and play Fox, and I've won locals in WA, Socal, and gotten 2nd in Norcal. hIT mE uP If InTeReStEd

 

[Rosedemon]

Its unfortunate that you couldnt win teams in Norcal, guess you just played a really good team ya know?

 

[Strong Badam]

loooool alan
GETEM

 

[Drephen]

ohhh yeahhhhh janky stages

i actually would like corneria and DK64 on singles but whatevs thats just a personal preference thing.

the only stage i have a problem with is Mushroom Kingdom 2 because of the eggs. No other stage used in tournaments has a item where you can K.O. with. Certain characters cant k.o. as easily characters as other characters, and when you add an item like an egg it changes the match completely especially when the eggs can k.o. at relatively low percents. Also, DK is broken on that stage, leading to the other character camping the entire time, leading to an 8 min campfest (imagine that kinda match in grand finals). Im pretty sure we came to an agreement years ago on why this stage shouldnt be allowed in tournaments.

but hell if this just a tournament for fun turn on Big Blue. I love that stage

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'd rather see corneria than mk2 too

 

[Strong Badam]

ohhh yeahhhhh janky stages

i actually would like corneria and DK64 on singles but whatevs thats just a personal preference thing.

the only stage i have a problem with is Mushroom Kingdom 2 because of the eggs. No other stage used in tournaments has a item where you can K.O. with. Certain characters cant k.o. as easily characters as other characters, and when you add an item like an egg it changes the match completely especially when the eggs can k.o. at relatively low percents. Also, DK is broken on that stage, leading to the other character camping the entire time, leading to an 8 min campfest (imagine that kinda match in grand finals). Im pretty sure we came to an agreement years ago on why this stage shouldnt be allowed in tournaments.

but hell if this just a tournament for fun turn on Big Blue. I love that stage

i'll be taking DK to grand finals and camping on MK2 with the threat of low % cargo throw kills

 

[stingers]

nah **** dks down b

 

[Strong Badam]

dear god I never even thought of that

 

[Metà]

I was looking at the info in that big pdf document, and I couldn't help but notice that you guys are making me choose between project:M and 64...... Why can't I play in two events that are going on at the same time? It's not like they're gonna be thaaat big lol. I don't mind switching between games.

 

[Strong Badam]

It's due to scheduling. Any TO knows that running two events concurrently and allowing players to enter more than one event will slow both events down; this way, there won't be people playing tourney sets in more than 1 game at a time. It's the way it's gotta be if it's to be run quickly and efficiently, unfortunately. My own completely unbiased self will be entering the Project M tourney =)

 

[omgwtfToph]

Its unfortunate that you couldnt win teams in Norcal, guess you just played a really good team ya know?

I was actually thinking of putting "...cuz Dajuan+Alan are too good" in my post then randomly decided not to LOOL

 

[Dart!]

When Dart places outside top 5, will it be because of the ruleset or because this isn't a Midwest local? I doubt it if Hbox/Mango/PP/M2K/Armada happen to show up...

You seem confident. Anything can happen. Don't pop off early.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Stage list is pretty dumb. Relying on a gimmicky stage that heavily favors your character is not conducive to competitive play at all. No one wants to fly across the country/atlantic to get camped/gayed by stage hazards. I know I'm falling on deaf ears here, so I'll leave it at that.

so I guess I'll go ahead and ask in advance, but does anyone cool from some other region wanna team at this? I'm pretty good at teams and play Fox, and I've won locals in WA, Socal, and gotten 2nd in Norcal. hIT mE uP If InTeReStEd

I'm not 100% if I'm going yet but we should team fo' real.

 

[Overswarm]

No one wants to fly across the country/atlantic to get camped/gayed by stage hazards

I'm not 100% if I'm going yet but we should team fo' real

;D


Oh you'll come. FC is awesome.

 

[LightsOutAce]

Ban the 3 stages you don't like? I don't see the problem here?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if something can be said about not banning mbr5 neutrals, or not banning more than 2 neutrals, or something, then i'd be a lot less afraid.

imagining a set where someone bans battlefield, yoshis, and dreamland against me still makes me feel...meh.

then again, i feel like those who would do something like that should be beatable anyway, so i'm not TOO worried but yeah...

 

[KishPrime]

if something can be said about not banning mbr5 neutrals, or not banning more than 2 neutrals, or something, then i'd be a lot less afraid.

imagining a set where someone bans battlefield, yoshis, and dreamland against me still makes me feel...meh.

then again, i feel like those who would do something like that should be beatable anyway, so i'm not TOO worried but yeah...

So I'm actually interested because of the way you're discussing. Are you saying that NONE of the 5 added stages hold any potential for your character? If you're up against a Falco or Fox and he makes those bans, that you are drastically worse off with, I don't know, FoD and Mute? Brinstar? Or heck, even MK2?

It seems like if that's the tack people take that they're opening themselves up to some uphill battles on the less traditional stages. I'm not a Ganon expert, but my feeling is that those levels would not be a drastic departure from the "normal" matchup ratio. Totally throwing this at you out of curiosity, though!

 

[Divinokage]

You'll likely face only top tiers later in the bracket or even R2-R3 pools there are always a strong amount of them. If they do ban those 3 neutrals, then you still have Brinstar for one and maybe MK 2.. but I have no experience on that stage whatsoever so I don't know how the matchups work out there. FoD is actually very good vs spacies imo as well... though the rest of the stages sucks *** terribly. lol. I would likely ban mute, japes and perhaps cruise too if I had to fight a spacie but that still gives them too strong CPs.. man.. That sucks as a Ganon main strictly but I guess I'll just have to use another character.

 

[KishPrime]

You'll likely face only top tiers later in the bracket or even R2-R3 pools there are always a strong amount of them. If they do ban those 3 neutrals, then you still have Brinstar for one and maybe MK 2.. but I have no experience on that stage whatsoever so I don't know how the matchups work out there. FoD is actually very good vs spacies imo as well... though the rest of the stages sucks *** terribly. lol. I would likely ban mute, japes and perhaps cruise too if I had to fight a spacie but that still gives them too strong CPs.. man.. That sucks as a Ganon main strictly but I guess I'll just have to use another character.

So wait, though, take a closer look at this. If you're saying they ban those three neutrals, then that leaves Brinstar and FoD as counterpicks for you, so the spacie player should ban those two for his total bans. Now you get to choose the starter stage between FD/PS/MK2 for the first stage, and extending that out to your conclusion on what spacies should be banning against Ganon, you're actually picking your most favorable stage from the list of FD/PS/MK2/Japes/Mute/Cruise.

I would think one of those stages should give you a relatively "neutral-ground" starting spot, and now you still have Brinstar/FoD as your counters. Unless you're actually saying (and you may be) that Ganon/Fox is abnormally imbalaced against Ganon on all of those stages?

 

[Divinokage]

There's only MK2 where maybe Ganon stands a chance vs a good spacie.. maybe. That's what I'm saying, all the other 5 stages you'll get owned for sure.

 

[Overswarm]

I could actually do the math if I knew the matchups better. I did something similar for Brawl previously (hint: Meta Knight wins), but the basic process is this:

Pick character A (let's say Fox) and Character B (say Ganon)

We then determine their bans/strikes/whatever.

Let's say the total stages are:

Final Destination
Rainbow Cruise
Brinstar
Battlefield
Fountain of Dreams

For simplicity's sake. You then get to know the matchup and measure the stages in relation to the matchup. So let's rearrange the list putting Fox's best stages higher up with Ganon's best stages lower down. I don't know if these would be correct or incorrect and this is purely hypothetical, I'm so far gone from my Melee days I can't really confirm anything on today's metagame. The stages are just kind of randomly placed here.

Rainbow Cruise
Final Destination
Fountain of Dreams
Brinstar
Battlefield

So now we know that a Fox would ban from the bottom up while the Ganon would ban from the top down; their logical starting stage would be "Fountain of Dreams" and the logical single bans for the set would be rainbow cruise for ganon and battlefield for Fox. If, for whatever reason, you felt Fountain of Dreams was just the most awful stage ever, you could strike that immediately and logically know the outcome; Fox would be taken to Brinstar while Ganon would be taken to Final Destination.

The next thing you need to figure out is how good your character actually is given the stage list, and how good/bad Fountain of Dreams is for that character.

This is a lot easier with FC's current ruleset as all the singles stages are used for stage striking. So Fountain of Dreams has a rating of "3", as it is the 3rd best stage for Ganon. Given that Fountain of dreams is also a "3" for Fox, you can see that it is an "even" stage for the two.

It takes a lot of work but if you are knowledgeable of your own performance on these stages as well as the traditional performance of spacies, you can determine how advantaged/disadvantaged you may be in certain matchups. You may find that a secondary actually has a better 'natural' stage given the stagelist and striking system for some matchups, so you might want to polish up on that character.

edit: Keep in mind, without some cold hard data collection you're really only guesstimating. It's probably more clear cut in melee since you have so much more time under your belt, but in Brawl "good" stages for characters can change rapidly with the proper practice and knowledge.

 

[KishPrime]

There's only MK2 where maybe Ganon stands a chance vs a good spacie.. maybe. That's what I'm saying, all the other 5 stages you'll get owned for sure.

Well, you only need one, technically, for the starter. And I acknowledge the uncertainty, but so long as there is, in fact, one, then you should be fine. So the question you're posing is really, does MKII dramatically change the Fox-Ganon matchup from the middle stage of the MBR5? So does it? May be a TBD.

And on a side track, are you really sure it's that bad on Mute? <_< I'm asking out of respect for you, and I'm only pushing because I am curious how much you've played the matchup on that stage. Everything in my head says that Ganon should have a pretty even shot there, though again, I'm no expert.

 

[KishPrime]

OS, I'm working on a post/newtopic where people can actually quantify some of this stuff and put it into a more formal argument.

While the FC ruleset really has little to say about character balance as that is not its intent, obviously it's something people want to talk about. My feeling is that once people draw it out there will be minimal changes from the MBR5 ruleset in almost every matchup.

 

[Overswarm]

It's really a data collection thing; people bring all sorts of assumptions to the table. People thought Norfair/Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar were Meta Knight's best stage and some still do, but when we collected data we found that while MK won on those stages more than he lost, he did so on every stage save for two (one CP, one starter), and his stages with the highest win percentage were actually stages that had previously been used as starters and were commonly used as counterpicks against Meta Knight. Kinda crazy.


Hmmm... If you wanted I could help with data interpretation from the FC event. It'd take some help from other attendees (we had judges at MLG) but we could get some serious data.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

And on a side track, are you really sure it's that bad on Mute? <_< I'm asking out of respect for you, and I'm only pushing because I am curious how much you've played the matchup on that stage. Everything in my head says that Ganon should have a pretty even shot there, though again, I'm no expert.

Ganon really does need platforms to fight fox and falco. Allows him to utilize a lot more approach options. I'm still not sold on these stages, I'm thinking about the time and annoyance factor of going through the ban/striking process for the entire tournament. You guys are so stubborn lol, it's kind of annoying. I got mad <3 for you guys tho so lez get it juicy.

It's really a data collection thing; people bring all sorts of assumptions to the table. People thought Norfair/Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar were Meta Knight's best stage and some still do, but when we collected data we found that while MK won on those stages more than he lost, he did so on every stage save for two (one CP, one starter), and his stages with the highest win percentage were actually stages that had previously been used as starters and were commonly used as counterpicks against Meta Knight. Kinda crazy.


Hmmm... If you wanted I could help with data interpretation from the FC event. It'd take some help from other attendees (we had judges at MLG) but we could get some serious data.

this sounds awesome, if you do this you should include it in your resume lol

You seem confident. Anything can happen. Don't pop off early.

lets be honest, ur bad, im going to eliminate you from this tournament you nub ****.

 

[PEEF!]

ICs vs Peach/Jiggs/Samus (collectively: Floaties). Let's just look at how truly bad this gets.

MBR Stagelist:
ICs ban Dreamland, Floaties ban Yoshis/Stadium.
Likey first match: Battlefield
ICs counterpick: Stadium/Yoshis
Floaty counterpick: FoD

FC Stagelist:
ICs ban Rainbow Cruise, Mute City, and Brinstar
Floaty bans Yoshis, Stadium, and FD
Likey first match:This will leave Battlefield, MK2, Japes, FoD and Dreamland. ICs will have to strike Dreamland and FoD, because they are easily the floaties best stages with MBR. Floaties can force MK2 or Japes for the first match.
ICs counterpick: Battlefield (The usual first neutral map under MBR is now our best counterpick)
Floaty counterpick: Dreamland (What we would ban under MBR)

What does this mean? Against Peach, Puff, Samus (and other characters as well) the first match will strike down to Jungle Japes or MK2, I kid you not. Then if that was not enough, as a counterpick, Puff, Samus, Peach and others will be able to counterpick the stage that the ICs would flat out ban on an MBR list, be it FoD or Dreamland.

TL;DR, this new stagelist will make a HUGE difference vs the MBR stagelist. In ICs vs Floaties, the first map will likely strike down to Japes/M2K. The IC's best counterpick will be Battlefield, and the floaty will be able to pick the stage that would be banned under MBR rules. Not everyone has to care about the ICs, but this is really really bad, and I suspect that similar situations will hold with other characters.

EDIT: Some ICs might prefer Dreamland over FoD, but the situation stays the same, just switch the stages.

 

[Kal]

My feeling is that once people draw it out there will be minimal changes from the MBR5 ruleset in almost every matchup.

This seems almost obvious to me. There are 351 matchups total, of which 26 are always even. So, in order for there to be a real balance issue, it would have to affect a large proportion of those 325 not-necessarily-even matchups. I would bet any mathematical formulation of this (say, measuring standard deviation across all 351 matchups) would yield almost the same results in the No Johns ruleset, the FC ruleset, and the MBR5 ruleset.

 

[Metà]

I'm still not sold on these stages, I'm thinking about the time and annoyance factor of going through the ban/striking process for the entire tournament. You guys are so stubborn lol, it's kind of annoying.

what everyone is thinking

you guys seriously need to take some input from the community at large. at the very least take out MKII ffs

 

[Divinokage]

Well, you only need one, technically, for the starter. And I acknowledge the uncertainty, but so long as there is, in fact, one, then you should be fine. So the question you're posing is really, does MKII dramatically change the Fox-Ganon matchup from the middle stage of the MBR5? So does it? May be a TBD.

And on a side track, are you really sure it's that bad on Mute? <_< I'm asking out of respect for you, and I'm only pushing because I am curious how much you've played the matchup on that stage. Everything in my head says that Ganon should have a pretty even shot there, though again, I'm no expert.

It's pretty terrible, fox can put you off-stage so fast and then you are pretty much vulnerable for the rest of the stock because there isn't any ledge to get back to. Within a close battle like that, you will lose, Ganon needs space to work with because being point blank is very very bad for him.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Triple post

Reported....
HYPE

 

[baka4moé]

its funny cuz it seems theres a lot of interest from well known players (even old and new; not necessarily top players too, but at least those that are really active in the community) to change the rules. you guys said you got a lot of input beforehand from the community...from who really? im curious, because was a lot of the input from not so known players and/or ppl that dont go to tourneys that much?

with the price and seemingly more lack of interest, idk if im going to this anymore...geh

and lol at kage having to seriously consider switching characters

 

[Metà]

why no dsr????? I can't counterpick a stage I haven't even won on yet? I can't think of any reason that's a good idea. It just sounds like you guys are trying to force us to use your janky stages

 

[Overswarm]

This seems almost obvious to me. There are 351 matchups total, of which 26 are always even. So, in order for there to be a real balance issue, it would have to affect a large proportion of those 325 not-necessarily-even matchups. I would bet any mathematical formulation of this (say, measuring standard deviation across all 351 matchups) would yield almost the same results in the No Johns ruleset, the FC ruleset, and the MBR5 ruleset.

This is the proper way of thinking!

One consideration when checking for standard deviation from the norm would be whether or not you want to weight certain characters based on popularity and/or skill. If you're worried about changing from the norm, you might say "ICs are really good in today's metagame" even though ICs are freaking awful characters and only have a chance because the stagelist has been whittled down to their more advantageous stages. For popularity, you might say that changes that are important in matchups involving Fox, one of the most prevalent characters, would be more important than matchups involving Pichu, one who is rarely used.

How you'd determine which route to take is a whole other beast. Personally I'd weight by perceived popularity as a rough estimate just to get an idea.


But if we collect data on characters I could actually tell you the popularity of characters at FC and it could make interpretation later worthwhile.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I think most matchups will end up similarly. Your neutral might be your cp, you will get cp'd to your ban, and the strike could be something...interesting.

Bad characters go back to being bad. I forget how terrible ganons mobility is without good platforms to aerial off of, because I've always had them. A lack of regular platforms is a problem for me, because that's how I speed him up. But its not really the stages fault, because it just tends to expose how bad my character is. And that's okay.

I believe that it does polarize the tier list, but that's because characters that aren't good don't fare well on abnormal stages. Not because the stage is bad for competition, but because the character doesn't have the tools necessary to fare well on the stage.

Ics are a bad character with bad mobility. So is ganon. We don't like stages where mobility/projectiles are vital to succeeding on the stage. But in the end, its not the stages fault. It gives an advantage to characters that already have an advantage, and whether you think a stage should be able to do that is where the argument lies in my opinion.

I don't like it, but I respect it.

Edit: this was typed on my phone so a lot of things ninja'd me, but it seems like my current opinion matches that of overswarms.

 

[Kal]

How you'd determine which route to take is a whole other beast. Personally I'd weight by perceived popularity as a rough estimate just to get an idea.


But if we collect data on characters I could actually tell you the popularity of characters at FC and it could make interpretation later worthwhile.

I might be willing to come up with a separate assessment in which the characters are weighed based on popularity for novelty's sake, but I wouldn't use this to create a ruleset. I wouldn't use character balance to create a ruleset, period, but even if I were going to do this, I would certainly not be so silly as to focus it on the current metagame vis-à-vis how often characters are played. It seems unfair to ban a stage with justification that falls down to "sorry, not enough people play Roy, so the fact that everyone destroys him on this stage is irrelevant."

But I do look forward to you mining information. It would be nice to have some actual statistics to make use of, rather than to simply spitball fake-statistics that usually just reaffirm the bias of whoever is making them.