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Matchups Chart & Lists - Updated: 29/Oct

xDD-Master

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One Question: Match-Up Ratios show to how many % a certain character would win against another at highest Level of play right (near to perfect playing a character) ?

So I would say Snake vs. CF is 90:10 at least because Snake counters nearly EVERYTHING CF has (Really I'm not kidding) there will never be a CF (Not Ally or someone else) who could beat the best Snakes... EVER ! Same thing would happen with some of MK MUs (Vs. Link for example). I think the Character Boards are just to "soft" with some MUs. A perfect planking pit would have some really crazy MUs, because some characters cant do ANYTHING vs. that. A perfect Spamming/Camping/Running away Falco could also destroy some character. Same thing with Olimar.

I brought this up here because it's a general problem of the character boards and their threads.
 

Cherry64

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Lol dude play Hive with boozer, she'll annihilate re-instal faith that it's a bad counter char choice.


EDIT:Dude up there^ makes a good point
 

Terra~

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One Question: Match-Up Ratios show to how many % a certain character would win against another at highest Level of play right (near to perfect playing a character) ?

So I would say Snake vs. CF is 90:10 at least because Snake counters nearly EVERYTHING CF has (Really I'm not kidding) there will never be a CF (Not Ally or someone else) who could beat the best Snakes... EVER ! Same thing would happen with some of MK MUs (Vs. Link for example). I think the Character Boards are just to "soft" with some MUs. A perfect planking pit would have some really crazy MUs, because some characters cant do ANYTHING vs. that. A perfect Spamming/Camping/Running away Falco could also destroy some character. Same thing with Olimar.

I brought this up here because it's a general problem of the character boards and their threads.
In your question you answer yourself.

If you think CF is totally nerfed by Snake I'd like to invite you to share that information with the Snake boards please (If you haven't already). They might not be currently discussing CF however, remember to bring up your point on CF when they will be.
 

SuSa

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xDD-Master - try more like 60-40. Falcon can get in on us. If we were that hard with our MU's every matchup would either be 0-100 or 100-0. Because if CF cannot do anything, where does that 10% come from?

Also, if we have 90:10 on Falcon - we have 95:5 on Falco.
 

sasook

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I think DDD vs Link is more ****** than shown. Grab= offstage= back air Link's sucky recovery= death for Link. I think it's something like 80/20 Dedede at least
80/20 and 75/25 are close enough, which is what we have it at.

After 75:25 ratios really don't matter anyway. It doesn't matter that much if a character has a 25% chance to win or a 15% chance because we'll likely **** them either way.

Also, who cares about Link? Seriously.
This comment made me sad. D:

Yeah, because insulting people who main a specific character is just soooooooooo clever, right? Sure, you're disrespecting all the work they put into his metagame, but who cares because Link sucks?

I'm sorry, but comments like that make me sick! :mad:
Thank you.

I only meant you had the final say and you're, like, the most anti-Ganon Ganon player ever.
From whatever little I've seen of you in the Ganon community, I have to agree with this Kalm.

Same thing would happen with some of MK MUs (Vs. Link for example).
We have it at 20:80, FYI. The Links aren't exactly the most optimistic of boards, we try to keep things realistic.
 

B!squick

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And it's really disheartening because Inui is the best Ganon ever and he doesn't even play Ganon. Why do you even bother trying Kalm?

Lol @ that thing Inui had said. XD
 

xDD-Master

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We have it at 20:80, FYI. The Links aren't exactly the most optimistic of boards, we try to keep things realistic.
Then it should be 100:0. Top Link (Izaw ???) will NEVER defeat any MK who knows to do (Izaw got 2stocked by reaper's MK for example). Well OK thats my opinion :dizzy:
 

sasook

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Then it should be 100:0. Top Link (Izaw ???) will NEVER defeat any MK who knows to do (Izaw got 2stocked by reaper's MK for example). Well OK thats my opinion :dizzy:
Not Izaw, Deva is by far the top Link atm, and he's taken out plenty of good MKs in tourneys. These MKs haven't been like, M2k status, but he's beaten Washington's top MK before (Jem I think?). And he said he 2 stocked Dphat (MK/Marth player, PR'd in Texas) at Genesis. At tourneyplay, Deva friendlied Tyrant, and this was Tyrant's quote:

"It's weird, you play Link so perfectly that he seems tourney viable when you use him. You punish everything I do and dont leave me anything to punish. I dont mean for Link being low tier and if you used someone good you'd do better, I mean I dont feel like I have an advantage against you regardless."

100:0 is sorta lulzy, I mean, it's bad but, it's not unwinnable. M2k and Ninjalink themselves have said in the past that Link is capable of putting up a fight, so long as he stays onstage.


Not bragging though, Link still sucks, the matchup still sucks, and MK is still ****.
 

GunmasterLombardi

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I'd say it has to be 85:15 or 80:20 in Mk's favor. Link may have a chance onstage, but Mk has the advantage all time. Just hope for the player to be less skilled.

Inui stopped playing Ganon? I hope not...
 

Arturito_Burrito

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xDD-Master - try more like 60-40. Falcon can get in on us. If we were that hard with our MU's every matchup would either be 0-100 or 100-0. Because if CF cannot do anything, where does that 10% come from?

Also, if we have 90:10 on Falcon - we have 95:5 on Falco.
tripping. Why would falcon have a better match up than falco though?
 

xDD-Master

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Not Izaw, Deva is by far the top Link atm, and he's taken out plenty of good MKs in tourneys. These MKs haven't been like, M2k status, but he's beaten Washington's top MK before (Jem I think?). And he said he 2 stocked Dphat (MK/Marth player, PR'd in Texas) at Genesis. At tourneyplay, Deva friendlied Tyrant, and this was Tyrant's quote:

"It's weird, you play Link so perfectly that he seems tourney viable when you use him. You punish everything I do and dont leave me anything to punish. I dont mean for Link being low tier and if you used someone good you'd do better, I mean I dont feel like I have an advantage against you regardless."

100:0 is sorta lulzy, I mean, it's bad but, it's not unwinnable. M2k and Ninjalink themselves have said in the past that Link is capable of putting up a fight, so long as he stays onstage.


Not bragging though, Link still sucks, the matchup still sucks, and MK is still ****.
Yeah but its maybe just the players mistake, we all know Link is good on-Stage, but MK (Or DDD) will OR should get him off-Stage and **** him there (Where Link is TRASH). A good MK should always get Link off-stage and gimp him. MK HAS the tools to do it, if he doesnt do it, its the MKs fault because maybe he didnt know the Match-up well.

When a Link can get an MK always down to 1 Stock 100% but still looses EVERY match, the match-up ratio should still be 100:0, nevermind if the Link is nearly winning or not. Just to mention that.

But yeah maybe its the wrong topic here to discuss that <_>

Sry if I am wrong in everything I say, but thats my opinion explained in bad englisch xD
 
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Good Link players actually recover well enough. Link has ridiculously good momentum cancelling and can survive to very high percentages if he doesn't get gimped. Gimping is of course a reality for Link, but the Boomerang and his Bombs are very good tools to assist him in avoiding this situation.

Basically, gimping a pro Link player is not that easy and he will make you work for it.

I've said it before: Link is a different animal from most characters in Brawl. It takes a ridiculously good player to make him viable, but he is more viable (not top level quality) if you are that player. Match-ups can go from being 20:80 to 40:60 or better. You'd have to be stupid to laugh off Legan's Link. He'd probably beat many good Meta Knight players.
 

n88

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Yeah but its maybe just the players mistake, we all know Link is good on-Stage, but MK (Or DDD) will OR should get him off-Stage and **** him there (Where Link is TRASH). A good MK should always get Link off-stage and gimp him. MK HAS the tools to do it, if he doesnt do it, its the MKs fault because maybe he didnt know the Match-up well.
Well, sure MK's gonna try to get Link off-stage and gimp him, but any Link who can play the game will expect that before the match even starts.

Plus, there's the fact that Link is bottom-tier and has a bad match-up vs. MK. Because of this, many MKs will learn the Link match-up later than others, if they bother to learn it, and have low odds of playing against a Link at a tourney.

Whereas Link mains will know the Metaknight match-up fairly well.

Disclaimer: Yes, I know Link sucks. MK still ***** Link. I'm just saying that it's not as one-sided as it may appear.
 

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯

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Well, sure MK's gonna try to get Link off-stage and gimp him, but any Link who can play the game will expect that before the match even starts.

Plus, there's the fact that Link is bottom-tier and has a bad match-up vs. MK. Because of this, many MKs will learn the Link match-up later than others, if they bother to learn it, and have low odds of playing against a Link at a tourney.

Whereas Link mains will know the Metaknight match-up fairly well.

Disclaimer: Yes, I know Link sucks. MK still ***** Link. I'm just saying that it's not as one-sided as it may appear.
MK doesn't need to know the matchup, it's really not that hard to figure out. MK can go into a match not knowing the matchup, and just play regular MK, and have a chance at winning.
 

sasook

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Yeah but its maybe just the players mistake, we all know Link is good on-Stage, but MK (Or DDD) will OR should get him off-Stage and **** him there (Where Link is TRASH). A good MK should always get Link off-stage and gimp him. MK HAS the tools to do it, if he doesnt do it, its the MKs fault because maybe he didnt know the Match-up well.

When a Link can get an MK always down to 1 Stock 100% but still looses EVERY match, the match-up ratio should still be 100:0, nevermind if the Link is nearly winning or not. Just to mention that.

But yeah maybe its the wrong topic here to discuss that <_>

Sry if I am wrong in everything I say, but thats my opinion explained in bad englisch xD
I understand where you're coming from, really I do, but what you're saying is basically MK's point of view of the matchup. I'm simply trying to explain it from Link's point of view. MK is his worst matchup, not far behind him is D3. ArkiveZero (one of the best Links in the USA before he quit not long ago) once said "a good Link will beat a decent MK. A great Link will beat a good MK. But a great Link will never beat a great MK." Now, by going by this, yes, it should be 100:0, as you say. But, as I've explained before, if Link stays onstage, he can put up a fight. Not much of one, granted, but still one nonetheless.

The common misconception is that Link specializes in spamming. This only has a tiny bit of truth to it. While it does seem that way, his projectiles suck. They're slow, laggy, and he has to constantly move just to spam. The truth is, Link specializes in spacing. Playing at midrange. And a great Link will always know what to do when it comes to spacing MK.

Lastly, Link's dair ***** MK when it connects. A fresh dair will KO MK on any neutral ridiculously early, no joke. And any decent Link knows how to set up a dair and autocancel it every time.

Like I said though, the matchup still sucks. I'm making it sound better than it actually is. I just wanted to share from Link's perspective.

Good Link players actually recover well enough. Link has ridiculously good momentum cancelling and can survive to very high percentages if he doesn't get gimped. Gimping is of course a reality for Link, but the Boomerang and his Bombs are very good tools to assist him in avoiding this situation.

Basically, gimping a pro Link player is not that easy and he will make you work for it.

I've said it before: Link is a different animal from most characters in Brawl. It takes a ridiculously good player to make him viable, but he is more viable (not top level quality) if you are that player. Match-ups can go from being 20:80 to 40:60 or better. You'd have to be stupid to laugh off Legan's Link. He'd probably beat many good Meta Knight players.
Lol, SFP knows from personal experience against me. =P

I've said this before: Link's recovery can be aided by bomb explosions, throwing boomerangs/arrows at the opponents trying to gimp, hitting the opponent away with a fair/nair, and his high priority (thank god) spin attack. That, and all good Link players have broken DI. This is fact, not an exaggeration. But even with all this, Link gets gimped almost as hard as Oli or Ganon or Ivy.

Well, sure MK's gonna try to get Link off-stage and gimp him, but any Link who can play the game will expect that before the match even starts.

Plus, there's the fact that Link is bottom-tier and has a bad match-up vs. MK. Because of this, many MKs will learn the Link match-up later than others, if they bother to learn it, and have low odds of playing against a Link at a tourney.

Whereas Link mains will know the Metaknight match-up fairly well.

Disclaimer: Yes, I know Link sucks. MK still ***** Link. I'm just saying that it's not as one-sided as it may appear.
This is all very true, I agree with this.

However....

MK doesn't need to know the matchup, it's really not that hard to figure out. MK can go into a match not knowing the matchup, and just play regular MK, and have a chance at winning.
This. Sadly, it's the truth.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I understand where you're coming from, really I do, but what you're saying is basically MK's point of view of the matchup. I'm simply trying to explain it from Link's point of view. MK is his worst matchup, not far behind him is D3. ArkiveZero (one of the best Links in the USA before he quit not long ago) once said "a good Link will beat a decent MK. A great Link will beat a good MK. But a great Link will never beat a great MK." Now, by going by this, yes, it should be 100:0, as you say. But, as I've explained before, if Link stays onstage, he can put up a fight. Not much of one, granted, but still one nonetheless.
IMO it's not.

Falco and DDD are worse than MK.
 

Terra~

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No offense to anyone but this isn't really the place to discuss specific match-ups. Noting that a match-up has changed, however, is a generous post. You all have great opinions and should bring those up in the corresponding boards/match-up threads. Thanks
 

phi1ny3

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Umm, I noted that lucario boards have Peach as 60:40 Lucario's favor, and wolf as 50:50, so that would be a new thing to put up on that list.
 

Rajam

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OP updated:

26-Jul-2009: Charizard 40 Falco, 45 Ice Climbers, 60 Ness; Ivysaur 30 Falco, 35 Ice Climbers, 45 Ness; King Dedede 40 Olimar, 45 Meta Knight; Kirby 40 Olimar, 55 Falco; Marth 60 Sonic; Meta Knight 60 Lucario, Zero Suit Samus; Olimar 60 Kirby; Pokémon Trainer 45 Falco, 50 Ice Climbers; Snake 45 King Dedede; Squirtle 60 Falco, 65 Ice Climbers, Ness; Toon Link 45 King Dedede, Marth, 50 Kirby, 55 Ice Climbers, Luigi; Wario 50 Falco, King Dedede, 60 Diddy Kong, and new thread; Zelda 25 Meta Knight, 35 Marth, 40 Diddy Kong
 

Rajam

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Umm, I noted that lucario boards have Peach as 60:40 Lucario's favor, and wolf as 50:50, so that would be a new thing to put up on that list.
? I checked the Lucario's matchup thread, and i didn't find that :S Well maybe it's because i only check the 1st post mostly, i can't start to look deeper into the threads searching for the official ratios, that would take a bunch of time...
 

phi1ny3

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? I checked the Lucario's matchup thread, and i didn't find that :S Well maybe it's because i only check the 1st post mostly, i can't start to look deeper into the threads searching for the official ratios, that would take a bunch of time...
I guess I'll have to put it on the timeline on the first post then.
Sorry, but the chart hasn't been updated in awhile, so I guess that's a good note.
But take it from the MU thread owner that those are the changed ratios.:)
 

smashkng

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Does Sonic have any approach on Wario? If he use spin attacks to approach Wario I easily stop with either nair, fair or dair. Wario outpriorises Sonic.
 

Rajam

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Falcos match ups have been filled in more and changed. Kirby Pika Diddy Peach Lucario Mario Sonic r a few to just say.
Links please; at least the OP of the Falco matchups hasn't been updated since 1/Jun

Ganon match-up chart has been updated, 07/09/09.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202473
? The OP is updated up until 26/Jun

I really hope this is finished one day.
Me too ._.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OP updated:

04-Aug-2009: Captain Falcon's last thread erased; Donkey Kong 40 Ice Climbers, Olimar, 50 Luigi, Wario, 55 Fox; Ice Climbers 50 Pokémon Trainer; Ike 35 Marth, and new thread; Kirby 50 Toon Link; Link's last thread erased; Lucario 50 Wolf, 55 Luigi, 60 Peach; Marth 55 Zero Suit Samus; Wolf 40 Wario, 45 Snake, and last thread erased
 

Rajam

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Sorry about the double post, i wanted to explain a little the maths behind the matchup tier List. The next is a copy-paste of what i explained to a guy who asked me a time ago how does it work.

hey, i just saw your tier list based on matchups... i wanna say that i am impressed with how you calculated it, and i wanna know how you did it! im trying to make the same type of tier list for another game, and i want to know if you used any tools that i may also be able to use. thanks! :)

Hi! Thanks for your words, it's been a hard work :)

I don't use anything special besides common excel, so i'll tell you the maths behind for the Tier List:

1) I calculate the average ratio for every character "i" (i = MetaKnight, Snake, etc.), like showed in the Ranking List; let's call that average ratio Ri

2) I put that ratio Ri in the next formula:
Ti = [ 1/(100-Ri) - 1/100 ]^N
Where N is a factor i'll explain later, and Ti is a measure i picked of my own for seeing how important a matchup against the character "i" would be.

So, for example if Ri = 0, or near 0 (a character that has an average ratio of almost 0 against the others... no chance to win ever), you'll have Ti = 0 or near 0, for any N. That reflects that a matchup against that character doesn't matter at all
Now, if Ri = 100, or near 100 (a character that wins every matchup for sure always), you'll have Ti = infinite (for any N). That means the matchup against such a character is all that matters

3) Ok, next step is to build the right ponderators, for that, sum all the Ti's and let's call that sum T. Then, the ponderator Pi for every character is:
Pi = Ti/T
A note about T: In an ideal world, T would be the sum of all the Ti's as i said before, but, for every character, T changes, because it deppends if you have or not the ratios for every character. For example, if MetaKnight has not ratio against Pikachu, then T for MetaKnight would be the sum of all the Ti's except the one Ti that is for Pikachu. Remember to don't take into account the matchups for which there is not ratio

4) Choose a non negative N (the N from the formula in part 2). N is like a measure of how balanced is the game. If N=0, all the ponderators will be the same and you'll get the Ranking list instead of the Tier list; Now in the opposite, if N is big, the matchups against characters with higher average ratios Ri will matter more (and matchups against characters with low Ri will matter less). If you pick N near infinite, the matchup against the character with the highest Ri (MetaKnight for example) will be the only one that matters, independent the value of Ri (it doesn't need to be near 100 if you pick a huge N)
If you want to know... i picked N = 4 :) (***) but i suggest you to play around with this value, it can change your Tier List dramatically

5) Now you are almost ready! Last step is to calculate the ponderated ratio and build the Tier List. Let's see an example:

If Metaknight has a matchup ratio of 60 against Pikachu, 50 against Snake and 70 Ganondorf (and no more ratios), his ponderated ratio would be:

Ppikachu*60 + Psnake*50 + Pganondorf*70 + Pmetaknight*50

(Don't forget to include the mirror matchup with ratio 50)

----

Well, i hope you could understand something; don't hesitate to ask any doubt :) Good Luck with your Tier List!


(***): Recently i changed this value into the standard desviation of the average ratios of the whole roster. That's why the list changed a lot this time
 
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