Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Teczer0]

Wow tbh I'm surprised at that pika chart.... Not that I can really disprove you since my pika experience is pretty low *shrugs*

One question though, why is pika vs jiggs so bad?

I wouldn't have thought its in pika's favor but I wouldn't have thought its THAT bad >_<

 

[N64]

short answer: pika doesn't really have an answer for bair camp

longer answer: bair is pretty tough to get around. If you do get around it, comboing jiggs is pretty non-existent and your moves don't do much anyway unless you have the luxury to commit to dair or usmash or something. Most often you'll just get uair->nair or uair->uair or a tilt or something. Meanwhile getting hit with her bair any time to you don't get in can hurt, and if you ever have to tech anywhere near her (from a fair or nair or something) you have to be scared of rest and fsmash. Both chars can die at pretty low percents in this matchup, but jiggs builds damage faster (and safer) while pika is looking for an usmash (relatively hard to land as you don't really have the tools to set it up) around 60%+ or an aerial around like 120%+ (stage dependant). Pika's above average edgeguarding game doesn't do much for him in this matchup, so he's really reliant on getting those usmashes to keep up. Conversely, jiggs is one of the best chars in the game (imo) at edgeguaring pikachu, as she can afford to go out the distance of his upB, tap him away, and make it back herself with little risk of being edgeguarded if she screws it up. Then there's rest, which works out of utilt or a techchase (pika's tech kinda sucks) among other things.

It's kinda tough for pika to build damage, and quick kills are pretty rare for him in this matchup, while jiggs still has her safe spacing tools to use. Chad feels it's pika's worst matchup, and while I don't wholely agree I think it's at least top 3-5.

 

[t3h Icy]

Pikachu's fully charged USmash on the Yoshi's top platform kills Jigglypuff at 17%, but it's hard to land (in general). I think non-charged on Final Destination would kill around 75ish. It's a fun match-up. n_n

Anywho, I'll add the Pikachu match-ups as well.

 

[Teczer0]

N64 - Oh okay, I guess that makes sense =/

Is thunder useful at all in this match up?

 

[MalwareDie]

Is thunder useful at all in this match up?

lol. I don't think so.

 

[KAOSTAR]

probably as useful as any other mu. if they are high up there or the sound is off lol. get em.

from up smash or trying to make it rain.

 

[choknater]

why is pika so bad against ics? haha

 

[Teczer0]

I was just curious cuz sometimes I use upair into thunder.

Its not very good but like vs Jiggs I was wondering if it helps at all *shrugs*

I need to play pika more =3

 

[BunBun]

I've used thunder to beat out a rollout lol.

 

[N64]

tec0 - it's useful for your usual usmash=>thunder, but if jiggs isn't super high / far away and you miss, she has plenty of time to just waltz over and rest you. So as long as you hit it's good!

choknater - basically ICs have a brutal cg on pika (single popo can cg him to a little before 50% iirc, but they have stuff to make it last longer if they're together). Then they have their jab->grab and jab->dsmash stuff, and techchase dsmash, and just dsmash being really brutal. Pika's shield sucks, so a dsmash from both ICs will likely shield stab. If it doesn't, next one is almost guaranteed to if done soon enough. ICs eat pika's crappy shield. Combination of grab cg stuff, techchase dsmash/option stuff, and overall ground mobility make the matchup rough. Pika likes getting below his opponent, and ICs like staying on the ground, so he has a rough time getting into a good position. It's a number of things that all come together to make ICs pretty scary.

On the plus side, he's alright at splitting the ICs up, and if he can gimp nana it turns into an evenish matchup heh. Just up until them pika has to be suuuuper careful to not allow a grab.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Non charged U-smash via Pika kills Puff at like 50

Maybe SLIGHTLY higher

But that thing *****

 

[choknater]

man thanks n64

i just wanna know how to abuse my strengths vs pika if i ever play him (*cough* axe)

axe didnt pick pika vs me when we played friendly though. he picked falco. he won though, so good ****. i'll get him next time!

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated: Ganon 55:45 Doc, Ganon 40:60 Falco, Ganon 40:60 Falcon, Ganon 35:65 Fox, Ganon 60:40 Luigi, Ganon 58:42 Mario, Ganon 45:55 Marth, Ganon 40:60 Peach, Ganon 35:65 Sheik, Jigglypuff 60:40 DK, Jigglypuff 60:40 Ganon, Jigglypuff 60:40 Link, Jigglypuff 60:40 Mario, Jigglypuff 80:20 Ness, Jigglypuff 80:20 Pichu, Jigglypuff 60:40 Pikachu, Jigglypuff 70:30 Roy, Mario 40:60 Fox, Marth 65:35 DK, Marth 60:40 Doc, Marth 55:45 Falco, Marth 55:45 Ganon, Marth 55:45 ICs, Marth 60:40 Luigi, Marth 70:30 Mewtwo, Marth 70:30 Roy, Marth 65:35 Young Link, Marth 70:30 Zelda, Mr. G&W 50:50 DK, Mr. G&W 30:70 Falco, Mr. G&W 45:55 Falcon, Mr. G&W 30:70 Fox, Mr. G&W 40:60 Marth, Mr. G&W 20:80 Sheik, Peach 75:25 ICs, Pikachu 45:55 Falcon, Pikachu 50:50 Ganon, Pikachu 30:70 ICs, Pikachu 35:65 Jigglypuff, Pikachu 20:80 Sheik

Thanks go out to CrimsonBlur. =)

 

[Druggedfox]

I like how the only 80:20 matches are:

Jiggs/Ness
Jiggs/Pichu
Sheik/G&W
Sheik/Pikachu

...

 

[t3h Icy]

Do you guys prefer green over blue by chance?

I like how the only 80:20 matches are:

Jiggs/Ness
Jiggs/Pichu
Sheik/G&W
Sheik/Pikachu

...

And Sheik/Roy. =P

 

[Geist]

blueeee <3

And the matchup thread in the Samus board had a bunch of numbers for higher tiered characters that were (more or less) agreed upon a while ago. It's dead now lol.

 

[SSBMLahti]

blueeee <3

And the matchup thread in the Samus board had a bunch of numbers for higher tiered characters that were (more or less) agreed upon a while ago. It's dead now lol.

Dude, the game Trivial Pursuit was invented in Caledon.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Purple would be mad tight ICy lol. green and blue are pretty ehhh not purple.

I think we reached a consensus in the two boards.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

quit life the chart says fox-pika is 60:35 lol.

 

[KAOSTAR]

fox vs. pika = 60%
pika vs. fox = 35%

doesn't add up to 100

It's not supposed to! read the OP!

Left-top is player-opponent. So foxes thing it's a 60-40 fox-pika matchup, and pikas think it's a 35-65 pika-fox matchup.

quit life the chart says fox-pika is 60:35 lol.

You can quit when ur ready. lol

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

**** the Sheik boards are some bum-*** mother****ers.

 

[Divinokage]

What the **** Pika vs Ganon is not even.. I'm pretty sure CG combined with better stage control gives Ganon the slight advantage.

 

[TemPesT-]

how and why did all of kirby's matchups get done before anyone else? and why is his vs fox a 0?

 

[rhan]

I like green better then blue.

I also agree with Marth v Young Link being 65 - 35.

Can you put that on YL's side also?

 

[Tero.]

Can't we just remove any character lower than Mario/DK/Luigi/Pika/Link from the chart?

 

[rhan]

No.


























Baka....

 

[N64]

why tero? I don't see the point in denying the low tiers a matchup chart, even if it may be slightly less accurate due to unpopularity of chars.

 

[Tero.]

They're not only less accurate, most of them are just simply wrong.
Honestly after 10 years of Smash we don't know much more about some characters apart from "they suck".

Also MU ratios between top/top and top/bottom just aren't proportionable.
Kirby does better against Falcon than Puff does against Fox? C'mon...

I'm fine with having a second chart with all the low tier MU, but imo it's better to just have a main chart with MU that actually matter and we know they're accurate.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

hahah kirby doing well at all in any matchup is a joke to say the least

 

[MalwareDie]

I agree with Tero..

Lol at Kirby having a 65-35 agaisnt any character.

 

[SuperMatt]

kirby does OK against falcon actually if youve ever played a good kirby

bair edge guards

 

[MalwareDie]

Falcon may not completely destroy Kirby, but 55-45 is wrong. G&W for example, does much better than Kirby agasint Falcon.

 

[Tero.]

kirby does OK against falcon actually if youve ever played a good kirby

bair edge guards

Every single character and their grandparents can edgeguard Falcon with *insert aerial of choice here*

 

[Pi]

kirby's think samus is a 40-60 matchup? lol?

 

[JPOBS]

ya the Kirby side of the matchups are ********.

in fact, im not even sure how i feel about having a chart that reads differently from each axis

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Falcon may not completely destroy Kirby, but 55-45 is wrong. G&W for example, does much better than Kirby agasint Falcon.

You can't look at the chart this way. The chart describes how well characters do against another character, not how well they do vs another character in comparison to other characters.

 

[otg]

They're not only less accurate, most of them are just simply wrong.
Honestly after 10 years of Smash we don't know much more about some characters apart from "they suck".

Also MU ratios between top/top and top/bottom just aren't proportionable.
Kirby does better against Falcon than Puff does against Fox? C'mon...

I'm fine with having a second chart with all the low tier MU, but imo it's better to just have a main chart with MU that actually matter and we know they're accurate.

I'm with this guy.

 

[DJ Nintendo]

I posted before on why Peach is the worst matchup for Bowser on the Bowser matchup thread so I'll post it again here and also add some things about Sheik.

Peach is Bowser's worst matchup. Yes, its worse than Sheik. Bowser can't combo Peach for ****. If Peach turnip camps him, especially if she's using a platform right above her for extra protection, its mad hard for Bowser to reach her. If the Bowser tries to use the strategy of grabbing the turnips and throwing them back to her to help approach, it will barely help or no help at all. Bowser throws mad slow. Her down smash destroys him and if she hits Bowser with a down smash at 0% or very low percent, he can get grabbed to continue getting combo'ed. Bowser can't tech chase her since she's a super floaty. He also can't do anything out of forward throw claw because it pops her up too high. Bowser regular shield sucks and Peach's down smash can suck you in, so he ends up getting clipped alot. She can float cancel combo him hard since he's such a fat ***. Its tough sometimes to even land an up-B outta shield since she's can be mad homo approaching from the air all the time. I know this happens with other characters but it happens alot with Peach. When you manage to get an up-B outta shield on her, it'll do the initial hit but then clip her with another part of his up-B. Since Bowser's recovery sucks, she can easily edgeguard him with either turnips, float cancel nairs or pretty much whatever. Bowser has mad trouble edgeguarding her and thats one of Bowser's main strengths. Bowser's main kill moves on her are his up-tilt, down smash, and forward smash. Peach is the #1 character in the game that gets caught by Bowser's forward smash. One example is Peach approaching with a float to fair. Bowser backs up, with good spacing and timing avoids the fair and hits Peach.

As for Sheik, we all know how you can get chain grabbed like crazy. Although if the Sheik messes up the next down throw chain grab by even the slightest frame, the Bowser can jump out. I've played plenty of Sheiks, including M2K's to verify this. The best way of getting out is of course DI'ing directly above Sheik and trying to time your jump perfectly. I know its hard to approach Sheik since Sheik can just f-tilt and fair all day. Although its not as bad as Peach. Bowser getting edgeguarded by Sheik is pretty gay too because of needles and such. Now Bowser at least has some good combos and setups against Sheik. Bowser can tech chase Sheik, which is pretty convenient. If Bowser gets Sheik with a claw, does the forward throw and the Sheik has a good amount of percent (lets say about 60% on Yoshi's Story before the claw grab), Bowser can get an up-air kill after the forward throw claw pops Sheik up if double jumped after the forward throw claw at perfect frames. Sheik cannot get out in time if done correctly. This combo setup also works on Marth. Bowser can also gimp Sheik in even two moves if done correctly and it also depends on Sheiks recovery. If Bowser claw grabs Sheik from the ledge at 0% to very low percent, the Bowser does the back throw then proceeds to take Sheiks second jump (one way is jumping off stage and fairing Sheik's second jump), then grab ledge again and Sheik won't make it. We all know Sheik's recovery isn't that good when you force her to up-B back into the stage while you're grabbing ledge. Since Bowser's main strength is edgeguarding and he hits mad hard, edgeguarding Sheik is definitely helpful for him. A couple options is just grabbing ledge and either bairing or claw grabbing Sheik and doing the back throw immediately so they probably won't DI. Back throwing immediately after getting a claw grab and they don't DI because its so fast is the main reason WarriorKnight and I don't bite most of the time when getting the claw grab.

Sorry I don't have videos of me playing Sheiks or Peachs in singles. I rarely ever end up getting recorded. Although this is my feedback on why Peach is Bowser's worst matchup and not Sheik. Sheik is still and will always be an extremely horrible matchup though. As a quick thing for the Young Link matchup, its possible to maneuver around the million projectiles and end up getting through to Young Link. I've played many Young Link players over the years that range from really aggressive to extremely patient and campy to just plain "I'm never going to approach you and just throw projectiles this whole match". Trust me, its possible and its not as bad as you think. You just have to know the matchup and have good maneuvering capabilities with Bowser.

So thats my input. WarriorKnight and I talk all the time and play once in a while and we agree on everything since we've been playing the highest level of Bowser for years and have vast knowledge with the game and matchups, especially me since I know more than he does. I was even thinking about bringing back Bowser when I return to playing in tournament again. Who knows? I hope this helps.

 

[MalwareDie]

You can't look at the chart this way. The chart describes how well characters do against another character, not how well they do vs another character in comparison to other characters.

It's not like I outright stated a ridiculous number for G&W. I just stated that G&W does better vs. Falcon than Kirby, and still loses, impying that Kirby vs. Falcon isn't a close match-up. I don't see what I did wrong there. Would I be wrong by saying that Fox does better vs Puff than Sheik does?

 

[Merkuri]

What the **** Pika vs Ganon is not even.. I'm pretty sure CG combined with better stage control gives Ganon the slight advantage.

Then post the match up rations in the Ganon Boards' match up chart. I read through and noticed there is no input from you.