KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
lol exactly. let the zelda/ roy players talk about the MU, not yl players trying to get yl to be a better character without anybody actually playing him lol.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
- Status
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I really like how this post doesn't address the point at all, and is just attacking Rhan.
All rhan was saying is that the logic of telling people to just use roy against cosmo is entirely invalid. He's not saying he knows more about the matchup through such a statement, simply that telling non-roy players to beat cosmo doesn't make sense.
Additionally, there are plenty of people that are knowledgable about matchups without necessarily maining those characters. Even if there weren't, if you want to deconstruct his argument, quote the post where he actually argues something about the matchup, and address it. Quoting him and attacking him in a way that is illogical and doesn't advance the argument is why the Melee Discussion forum is honestly going downhill, and has been for a while.
That said, I liked zone's post a lot, regardless of my opinion on the matchup. It was a great example of a solid post; I wish more people would post like that =D
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Well if rhan wants to use the "u dont know what ur talking about" argument, its pretty silly since he actually knows less about the subject...
I dont see how you can say "i know this matchup" but then turn around and claim you don't play the character at all.
at this point, there are no facts being thrown around or logic. its opinion. thats how any subjective debate breaks down. I just would rather take someone's opinion on a character that they have mained for quite a bit of time IN TOURNAMENT and placed quite high over someone who can't even vouch for playing the character at all. Experience definitely matters.
my favorite part is where he implies roy's tip fair can combo into a kill move and how he still doesn't understand cosmo's analogies.
edit- i kinda come off as an ******* in this post, so i just wanna give rhan and druggedfox a quick apology :/
I dont see how you can say "i know this matchup" but then turn around and claim you don't play the character at all.
maining and playing the characters are different. I main fox but i play just about every character a little bit. Do i think my limited experience with zelda stacks up to my massive experience with fox or marth? no. Do i think that limited amount of zelda experience stacks up to cosmo's zelda experience? definitely not.
at this point, there are no facts being thrown around or logic. its opinion. thats how any subjective debate breaks down. I just would rather take someone's opinion on a character that they have mained for quite a bit of time IN TOURNAMENT and placed quite high over someone who can't even vouch for playing the character at all. Experience definitely matters.
it would help if he actually posted something relevant to his argument
my favorite part is where he implies roy's tip fair can combo into a kill move and how he still doesn't understand cosmo's analogies.edit- i kinda come off as an ******* in this post, so i just wanna give rhan and druggedfox a quick apology :/
JPOBS
Smash Hero
sveet u must not read your own posts very often if you are apologizing specifically for this one.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
hahahahahahahaha
tone really gets lost on smashboards, im not quite this much of a **** in person
tone really gets lost on smashboards, im not quite this much of a **** in person
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I agree with sveet on this one.
the only argument has been roy vs zelda isn't 70-30 (which I honestly agree with) and there was a claim that yl has a better MU vs roy than zelda.
no real explanations for anything have been said. so there is nothing to argue against.
the only argument has been roy vs zelda isn't 70-30 (which I honestly agree with) and there was a claim that yl has a better MU vs roy than zelda.
no real explanations for anything have been said. so there is nothing to argue against.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
I didn't feel like you were a ****, no worries =]
But there are many people who's judgment I would trust on multiple characters despite the fact that they don't necessarily "main" them. There are lots of people who are amazing with a lot of characters, but that just don't get usage because one might shine a bit brighter (no pun intended =D ).
But there are many people who's judgment I would trust on multiple characters despite the fact that they don't necessarily "main" them. There are lots of people who are amazing with a lot of characters, but that just don't get usage because one might shine a bit brighter (no pun intended =D ).
Laijin
Smash Hero
Okay. So what I have gathered is this:
Because someone doesn't use a character as much as another character, they don't have any valid opinions on that character's MU's? Not everyone just mains one character man. You can have MORE than 1 main. The smash community is the only community I can think of that believes you can only really have one main. This may not be true for you, but a lot of people do indeed believe this. Just because someone doesn't play a character as much in tournament really doesn't mean their opinion is automatically invalid.
I don't get how you honestly think that. We're all playing the same game here so I'm pretty sure we all have a good idea on how things work...for the most part at least
Because someone doesn't use a character as much as another character, they don't have any valid opinions on that character's MU's? Not everyone just mains one character man. You can have MORE than 1 main. The smash community is the only community I can think of that believes you can only really have one main. This may not be true for you, but a lot of people do indeed believe this. Just because someone doesn't play a character as much in tournament really doesn't mean their opinion is automatically invalid.
I don't get how you honestly think that. We're all playing the same game here so I'm pretty sure we all have a good idea on how things work...for the most part at least
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Im not sure if that was directed at me laijin, but if so i really hope you will go back and re-read my posts because everything you mentioned in your post was already addressed and i think you misunderstand my viewpoint.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
@laijin-nobody is saying that at all.
I was only saying that nobody is going to accept your opinion on a MU when all your points made reference to y. link.
you just haven't demonstrated knowledge on zelda roy. it doesn't matter if you main or play them. mains of those characters are only given a little more leniency, not taken for fact.
again 70-30 isn't a defined term. I think there was some sort of soft agreement that the numbers were just a reference to how hard the MU is. not any sort of statistics.
I was only saying that nobody is going to accept your opinion on a MU when all your points made reference to y. link.
you just haven't demonstrated knowledge on zelda roy. it doesn't matter if you main or play them. mains of those characters are only given a little more leniency, not taken for fact.
you never even mentioned yl is bad at killing whereas zelda is good at it. present a full argument next time. why do you assume camping is how you beat roy. like cosmo said, his recovery is trash. ez kill mode.
again 70-30 isn't a defined term. I think there was some sort of soft agreement that the numbers were just a reference to how hard the MU is. not any sort of statistics.
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
I agree except for the last part. The Zelda players are saying the match up is 70:30 and if they place 10 times then Zelda will win 7 times and Roy will win 3 times. Some of them are even saying the matchup is 80:20, it kind of is a defined term at this point.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
i dont agree that the numbers mean anything in terms of statistics and as far as i know this list doesnt operate under that assumption.
that said, by definition, if two players are playing perfectly even then the character with the favorable side of the match-up will win.
that said, by definition, if two players are playing perfectly even then the character with the favorable side of the match-up will win.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
hmm, idk. I think its still arbitrary, or at least it should be general difficulty. a few pages back I threw my reasonings for that on the table.
but alot of people do still say things out of ten or a hundred, idk if thats what its suppose to be or if thats just a misconception or an assumption stemming from the unknown and that just being a common form factor to describe things out of a hundred.
ultimately the icy should give the numbers meaning so its clear what we mean when we use them.
because I think cosmo could beat an equivalent roy player 7-3. but I don't think its 70-30. I would be more likely to agree with 60-40, or if its truly bad id say 65-35. something equivalent to an advantage, but to me 70-30 is in the range of large advantage which due to lack of available and safe options, low tiers wouldn't have that much over anyone. ie radon they are low tier to begin with.
I know for sure that roy has the ability to avoid kicks and get grabs. lol according to rhan/laijin roy has no problem killing yl. also I can see his counter being beast in this MU, but thats not something to rely on...its all mental and far from guaranteed. I see roy being good at chipping and dealing damage, but other than grabs and an abundance of weak tipped moves DED is probably his only option.
on that note, its not enough. roy is not in a position to trade hits with zelda and like marth, he extends his hurtbox when attacking. unlike marth, his strength is the middle of his blade...aka wasted range.
if you are shielding DED, you can typically roll if they past the first hit or if they delay the timing to get you to act or let up your shield. if the go for to many its punishable.
roy loses to zelda in the air. a complete failure of a sword. I think not having a projectile hurts roy in this MU more than the compared roy vs yl kinda thing.(this is making a point that din's fire sucks enough for approaching purposes to not count) roy is the one who needs a projectile, zelda can keep him out pretty easily and has no reason to approach.
the only way roy gets off is if he can combo into a kill move from grab. this is where my ignorance comes in. I do not know for sure if he has a reliable kill off grab. id say no because thats tipper range and I know you can sdi away of DED.
zelda has a solid adv edge guarding, more reliable kill moves, and technically a projectile. she has the advantage in the air.
roy is faster. has more range, but will struggle to make use of it. extended hurtbox at the weakest part of his hit box says eat me! 2nd worse recovery in the game.
I can see roy dealing damage no problem, im failing to imagine his kill strike.
so does anyone know of a reliable setup into mid blade f smash, or kill move side b that works on floaties like zelda? preferably off grab, or quick enough to hit with in between landing from a lightning kick.
but alot of people do still say things out of ten or a hundred, idk if thats what its suppose to be or if thats just a misconception or an assumption stemming from the unknown and that just being a common form factor to describe things out of a hundred.
ultimately the icy should give the numbers meaning so its clear what we mean when we use them.
because I think cosmo could beat an equivalent roy player 7-3. but I don't think its 70-30. I would be more likely to agree with 60-40, or if its truly bad id say 65-35. something equivalent to an advantage, but to me 70-30 is in the range of large advantage which due to lack of available and safe options, low tiers wouldn't have that much over anyone. ie radon they are low tier to begin with.
I know for sure that roy has the ability to avoid kicks and get grabs. lol according to rhan/laijin roy has no problem killing yl. also I can see his counter being beast in this MU, but thats not something to rely on...its all mental and far from guaranteed. I see roy being good at chipping and dealing damage, but other than grabs and an abundance of weak tipped moves DED is probably his only option.
on that note, its not enough. roy is not in a position to trade hits with zelda and like marth, he extends his hurtbox when attacking. unlike marth, his strength is the middle of his blade...aka wasted range.
if you are shielding DED, you can typically roll if they past the first hit or if they delay the timing to get you to act or let up your shield. if the go for to many its punishable.
roy loses to zelda in the air. a complete failure of a sword. I think not having a projectile hurts roy in this MU more than the compared roy vs yl kinda thing.(this is making a point that din's fire sucks enough for approaching purposes to not count) roy is the one who needs a projectile, zelda can keep him out pretty easily and has no reason to approach.
the only way roy gets off is if he can combo into a kill move from grab. this is where my ignorance comes in. I do not know for sure if he has a reliable kill off grab. id say no because thats tipper range and I know you can sdi away of DED.
zelda has a solid adv edge guarding, more reliable kill moves, and technically a projectile. she has the advantage in the air.
roy is faster. has more range, but will struggle to make use of it. extended hurtbox at the weakest part of his hit box says eat me! 2nd worse recovery in the game.
I can see roy dealing damage no problem, im failing to imagine his kill strike.
so does anyone know of a reliable setup into mid blade f smash, or kill move side b that works on floaties like zelda? preferably off grab, or quick enough to hit with in between landing from a lightning kick.
Zone
Smash Champion
Yeah being able to kill off grab would hurt alot seeing as how zelda's oos options are very good and abundant minus the grab :\. Unless you shield a laggy move like someone getting desperate with a kill move. But it's not east to grab Zelda when she's short hopping everywhere waiting for your approach to do a really safe retreating kick.
I know about the same with Roy then I do about Young Link. Because I actually play against a Roy player and we have many discussions.
So yeah. You don't know me. And you definitely don't know what I'm knowledgeable of.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
You all should check out my latest project 
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285219
Hope you all like ^^
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=285219
Hope you all like ^^
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Vman's post is relevant to the thread, contrary to the first impression you might get. It's not shameless advertising, he's actually showing us how mewtwo has advantageous matchups against the entire cast 
Amirite? That vid is too good
Amirite? That vid is too good
Ayatsuri_Rinku
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
- Messages
- 36
just saying, kirby shouldn't have a 0 on fox. that's technically impossible. it should be like a 5 or something atleast.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Does Scissors have a 5:95 vs Rock?
Laijin
Smash Hero
LOL nice analogy
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
He's right you know... kirby should have maybe a -10 on fox. Even winning with kirby actually gives fox the win.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
but... i can lose to kirby as fox if i want, so its not 100-0
Ayatsuri_Rinku
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
- Messages
- 36
no of course not, but rock paper scissors is not even similiar to melee in any way. theres always that slight slight slight chance that kirby could beat fox in a match up, its never impossible. I mean it could atleast be 1-99. melee is so free and can be very uncertain at times. sorry this is nit picky but, its the truth. melee isnt a game of rock paper scissors, where, this beats this, no exceptions. anything can happen in melee.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
I know, but I don't know how the match-up plays out, so if you're interested, you ought to visit the Kirby boards about it.
I think part of the reason is because Fox can camp on top of everything else. Even Jigglypuff vs Kirby on Dreamland is hilarious.
I think part of the reason is because Fox can camp on top of everything else. Even Jigglypuff vs Kirby on Dreamland is hilarious.
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
You're absolutely right. If this can happen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fre6FTMo-E&feature=related then there is absolutely no reason why Fox Kirby should 0:100. Teh Icy is making a mistake, and I know he's the author of the thread and all but it would be cool if he didn't manipulate the chart this way.
MalwareDie
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- May 28, 2010
- Messages
- 66
Are you joking? If it was a good Sheik, that wouldn't have happened.
Laijin
Smash Hero
How has nobody noticed that vid was from 06..
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Fox kirby is significantly worse than pichu sheik.......
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
Last I checked Sheik had a 0(maybe it starts in the teen%) to death chain grab on Pichu, I don't see why you think Kirby is the harder match up.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
more like overall game play has sped up, which is ok for sheik, bad for kirby.
also sheik's have become more precise, and can play alot better without cgs. by that I mean sheik players have improved in areas aside from cg.
overall level of play is more technical.
kirby hasn't changed much lol.
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
We are discussing the Pichu Sheik match up. The other is Kirby vs Fox. If the game is faster and Sheik is playing faster then why do you assume that Pichu players aren't playing faster as well? Just cause you don't seeing them do it doesn't mean it doesn't happen(on a side not Armada's Kirby is lightning fast) The gaming speeding up didn't hurt Pikachu, on the contrary it seems to have helped his metagame. Despite him being a worse character it stands to reason it would help his metagame as well.
john!
Smash Hero
mew2king four stocked a local pichu on fd using one hand
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
obviously I thought it was kirby sheik. you edited your post after I quoted it so why would you try and grill me on something im unaware of. I didn't even mention pichu but you wanna say dumb **** like I assumed pikachu and pichu won't get faster....something is wrong with you.
. kirby isn't that fast. when it comes to speeding up he gets left cuz his cap is much lower. sheik is faster than kirby and kirby is severely underplayed....less improvement in metà game.
pikachu is a fast character, as is pichu. it shouldn't hurt them if the game speeds up. it should help.
the slower a character is, the more the game speeding up can hurt them. they approach their limit faster and will eventually cap. logically the only factor that matter when it comes to speed is umm lol speed. it doesn't matter if a character is good or bad.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
This thread is mad funny to read. Ya *****s need to quit the life of all love lol <3
Winston
Smash Master
no, by definition if two players are playing perfectly even then the character with the favorable side will win more often.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
no because in order to win, the person on the unfavorable side would have to be playing better.
Mahone
Smash Champion
edit: nvm, i don't want to argue
john!
Smash Hero
you're all wrong
- Status