Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Laijin]

I would assume that the yl players, rhan, and laijin would have done their MU accurately.

if the basis for raising yl zelda is that they think roy is too high means they really don't know what it is... or

im just pointing out that rhan and laijin are still on the grind trying to move yl up on the tier list. plenty of MUs are ?able, they chose a roy one because yl is tied with roy.

if we can't move yl up...lets move everyone else down. lol.

Well that makes sense. But I'm pretty sure that LIJin and Rahn are arguing isn't that YL's match up against Roy should be better, it's that Zelda'S match up against Roy should be worst. They're saying that the Zelda players are wrong in their analysis.

And while I agree that Rahn and Lagin(especially Lagin) maybe trying to move YL up in the tier list that doesn't make their argument less valid. There is no sensible reason why Zelda would have more of an advantage against Roy that YL.

Something you guys gotta understand.
This is not the tier list. This is the match up chart.
Two different things.
In the smash community(And yes, we happen to be like the only fighting game community that does things this way). The Tier List != The Match Up chart. There are huge differences between them. While a character X might have better match ups than character Y thats above him(character X is logically the better character...), but that does not matter in the tier list. That is the main difference here. That does matter in the match up chart. We want the best accuracy as we can get. I'm not promoting Young Link in any way in this thread. I'm just trying to help make this list as accurate as possible. That is why I agreed with Rhan, there is no reason Zelda should have that huge of an advantage against Roy. Doesn't Roy outrange her AND is faster?

Sure. I might not know the match up. But from an outside perspective, that doesn't look correct at all. Rhan and I use another Roy match up that we DO know really well. Young Link vs Roy is 60-40 and Roy has a ton of trouble with the fact that he gets camped very easily, however he outranges Young Link and doesn't have trouble with getting kills. Zelda on the other hand does not have a good projectile and Roy outranges her and is faster. So as you can see, logically...Zelda may beat Roy, but its definitely not 70. There is no way Roy will only win 30 matches out of 100 against Zelda.

 

[rhan]

I would assume that the yl players, rhan, and laijin would have done their MU accurately.

if the basis for raising yl zelda is that they think roy is too high means they really don't know what it is... or

im just pointing out that rhan and laijin are still on the grind trying to move yl up on the tier list. plenty of MUs are ?able, they chose a roy one because yl is tied with roy.

if we can't move yl up...lets move everyone else down. lol.

I could care less for a tier list debate right now.

I'm on no grind. I'm trying to explain that Young Link has much more options against Roy that Zelda doesn't. for starters Young Link is faster and has 2 great projectiles against Roy. While Zelda is slow and has no kind of worthy projectile.

I also play against a Roy main so my knowledge of the match-up is pretty great. And with knowing what Roy can do, I just don't understand how he still may possibly give Zelda that easy of a win.



Also **** the tier list. I'm here to make this chart actually worthy of being a good reference chart. Tier lists can go to hell especially the one's made from this community.

And: Everything Laijin said.

 

[SSBM_Sora]

I could care less for a tier list debate right now.

I'm on no grind. I'm trying to explain that Young Link has much more options against Roy that Zelda doesn't. for starters Young Link is faster and has 2 great projectiles against Roy. While Zelda is slow and has no kind of worthy projectile.

I also play against a Roy main so my knowledge of the match-up is pretty great. And with knowing what Roy can do, I just don't understand how he still may possibly give Zelda that easy of a win.



Also **** the tier list. I'm here to make this chart actually worthy of being a good reference chart. Tier lists can go to hell especially the one's made from this community.

And: Everything Laijin said.

I agree.

And i kind of like the Young Link vs. Ganon match up.
Just saying.

 

[KAOSTAR]

just do roy vs zelda. there is no reason to include yl lol.

if you don't know roy vs zelda, unfortunately you have nothing to add to the conversation.

 

[Laijin]

Alright sir.
Explain why Zelda > Roy so much?

 

[Cosmo!]

how would roy ever kill zelda if she's not dumb? upthrow at 210%?

I 4 stocked Ripple and right afterwards he told me he was not going to upload it.

zelda destroys roy

 

[ChivalRuse]

how would roy ever kill zelda if she's not dumb? upthrow at 210%?

I 4 stocked Ripple and right afterwards he told me he was not going to upload it.

zelda destroys roy

Point made.

 

[TheGoat]

ganon ***** jiggs

 

[Divinokage]

I agree.

And i kind of like the Young Link vs. Ganon match up.
Just saying.

I'll make you not like it anymore lol.

ganon ***** jiggs

Mhm.

 

[unknown522]

ganon ***** jiggs.

*hides behind Kage*.

Fox = Ness (50:50)
I think Falco has a better chance against Ness. I fight my friends Fox sometimes and a lot of his attacks are predictable but still somehow effective. **** uair! I'm most likely wrong with this one, but if anyone else agrees, great.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

I don't think I will be able to stop laughing for a week.







Also, Fox v Sheik is even. Taking 80% (though it should be a whole stock. play Kirbykaze and you'll know) on average off of one knockdown is gay. Sheik can also wall/trap fox with her range and speed. Her edgeguarding on fox is incredibly easy as well. Because of a combination of her range and CCing, it is hard for fox to land the solid hit that he needs as well. His longer ranged moves all will cost him a stock because of CC, or just plain being beaten out due to her superior range. The moves that he wants to land (grab, drill, shine) all have short range, and it isn't so easy to hit her. She is also one of few characters that has legitimate answers to fox's shield pressure (WD or n-air OoS).

Fox though, has some really good combos on sheik as well, free edgeguarding, and also out-camps her if you do it right. He shouldn't be keeping up with her damage output off of one hit, but it happens sometimes if you catch them with bad DI. Though with Sheik, you don't need fox to DI bad to get a huge combo, or edgeguard setup going. Platforms don't really hurt either one of their games, and can (and probably will) extend combos. At mid-high percents though, fox is more likely the one to get combo'd off of platforms though, because of sheik's resistance toward being knocked down.

 

[john!]

^ what's an "unmod"?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Alright sir.
Explain why Zelda > Roy so much?

I can't but apparently you can't either.

umm m2 roy is around there and zelda is better so therefore it must be true. right....right. come on, feel me.

 

[rhan]

how would roy ever kill zelda if she's not dumb? upthrow at 210%?

I 4 stocked Ripple and right afterwards he told me he was not going to upload it.

zelda destroys roy

You're good. Ripple's bad.

Anyway that's dumb saying "if she's not dumb". Because then that's going on the player and not the character. The character overall doesn't have it that well against Roy.

By your logic I can say Young Link tramples over Roy with all his projectiles he can't get around because he's too slow.

And in that case. The match-up would be greater then 60-40. It'll probably be more like 90-10.

So can we become a little more realistic?

 

[KAOSTAR]

super troll! zelda ***** roy. trade hits all day!

cross faded I am!

 

[Merkuri]

how would roy ever kill zelda if she's not dumb? upthrow at 210%?

I 4 stocked Ripple and right afterwards he told me he was not going to upload it.

zelda destroys roy

Is there a reason why DED doesn't work on Zelda? It's a killing tool Roy players seem to underutilize.

 

[rhan]

Roy has:

DED
F-Smash
Uair -> F-Smash
Dtilt - > F-Smash

Also DED stops EVERYTHING.

 

[Laijin]

Wow. I actually had to google what DED means...LOL.
You guys really could have said side-B ya know..
anyways.

Theres no reason why Roy would struggle against Zelda that much. Zelda DOES NOT absolutely destroy Roy. Seriously. Be more realistic

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

play cosmo with roy. do it. i agree with his assessment of the match-up 100%

 

[john!]

i don't actually play roy, but there have been roys that can beat my g&w, force me to switch to zelda, and i beat them. from personal experience it's a really tough matchup for roy.

 

[Laijin]

I'm not arguing if its a tough match up for roy or not, I'm saying 70-30 is pretty extreme. Realistically its probably 60-40. The Roy boards seem to think this too

 

[Doc King]

Isn't the matchup with Peach and Fox pretty much even and Marf's matchup with Fox is a pretty good advantage for the most part?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach Fox even?

LMFAO

 

[Doc King]

Well, Peach can chainthrow Fox while Fox can wave shine combo Peach around the stage. I think overall, it's even, with many techniques that can be used from both characters.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fox destroys peach. easily. for example, i got 3 stocked by a peach game 1 as marth. switched to fox and 2 stocked him the next 2 games.

 

[SSBM_Sora]

Well, Peach can chainthrow Fox while Fox can wave shine combo Peach around the stage. I think overall, it's even, with many techniques that can be used from both characters.

Not only that. Killing Peach upwards is the key and Fox have Upsmash or Uair so yeah.

 

[Doc King]

OK, I get ya. Then the matchup should be 55:45 or 60:40 in Fox's favor.
>

 

[JPOBS]

peach is free for fox.

 

[Merkuri]

^ Every fox who has played Armada would tell you otherwise. It's in Fox's favor but part of the problem is that there is seemingly only one Peach who knows how to combo fox correctly.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

armada doesnt win because of his combos lol

 

[Cosmo!]

Anyway that's dumb saying "if she's not dumb". Because then that's going on the player and not the character. The character overall doesn't have it that well against Roy.

If you're not dumb, you won't get hit by Warlock Punch as Young Link. Same thing as Roy's kill moves against Zelda (dsmash will kill, but it is a gamble)

 

[MalwareDie]

OK, I get ya. Then the matchup should be 55:45 or 60:40 in Fox's favor.
>

No, you clearly don't get it. Fox beats Peach by more than that.

 

[Zone]

I've lost to Roys as Falcon before, and I play him far more religiously than Zelda, and almost anytime I face someones roy with Zelda, It is usually at the very least a 2 stock. But with all the tournaments i've been too, I don't know which roys I fought their names or if they were any good lol.

You guys are saying roy out ranges Zelda... Most of his moves are really really really weak when you use it's range.... except like B moves. So I will gladly trade what like 3-5% for that crappy ranged Fair from roy, or w/e he chose, for a 20% damage kick. Also If you Forward b on my shield You are going to be punished I promise. Zelda's moves are very high priority, Especially when it comes to weak ranged moves from Roy. With his power at the hilt and all.

It's alot easier to edgeguard Roy with Zelda than vice versa. Although Zelda has it a little bad herself if she doesn't have platforms to mix up her recovery options. And since this is a factor. It's also easier for Zelda to knock roy off the stage. Seeing as how a kick from anywhere after like 45% will depending on the stage will normally knock him off. Where most of the time people like Fox and falco usually can end up dying. but atleast they can mix up their recovery, unlike roy. Zelda can't really mix it up much either in terms of getting back in. But atleast she can aim her Up+B in alot of different directions and won't get hit until she reappears onstage. roy pretty much always moves in downward and up+b's below the stage. Unless he was fortuneately knocked not far away enough he could regrab with just his jump. or reaches the edge with Up+B before you can get to him.

What could roy do other than really really try hard to mind game me if I sit in shield, then kick away out of shield when I think you're approaching? You do a B-move I'll punish you out of shield. If you try to bait my kick and shield it. I'm retreating so you can't punish me. If we trade, I usually benefit. If you grab you will be hit by my b-air out of shield. I also know how often you roys try to down tilt poke shields to get combos. And it's a habit to lightshield/heavy shield down to avoid it.

Your best bet seems to be to try and forward B me or charge B me or bait a kick and counter me.

Sure roy has some speed, and Zelda is slow. But Zelda is the Baiken of this game. You best be very freaking careful to touch her defensive tendencies. And since a roy needs to approach up close. and his power is at the hilt.

I can safely say I haven't lost to a roy with Zelda yet. but I'm pretty confident there are roys who can beat me :D.

Zelda's range is far more dangerous than roys range, Even if it "does happen" to be further. Which imo makes Zelda far stronger.

Also when I see 70:30 I think very hard upclimb fight but still slightly plausible and possible. when I start seeing 80:20 that's when I'm thinking you really better pick another character.

 

[Fletch]

Zelda might do well against Roy, but I wouldn't use you having an easier time with Zelda vs. Roy than Falcon vs. Roy seeing as Falcon completely ***** the balls off of Roy, and more than likely doesn't have a worse matchup with Roy than Zelda.

 

[Laijin]

So about Kirby vs Link being 45-55.....

YEAA....about that...

I wonder how the Link players feel about that

 

[Zone]

Uh wut?? How??

Zelda might do well against Roy, but I wouldn't use you having an easier time with Zelda vs. Roy than Falcon vs. Roy seeing as Falcon completely ***** the balls off of Roy, and more than likely doesn't have a worse matchup with Roy than Zelda.

Yeah it's probably a bad tool for argument I'll admit but I stated it to show that I could have a slight bias toward it because of that experience

 

[Pink Reaper]

All i know is, last time I talked to Skler I made fun of his character for taking like, 20 frames to get an Ftilt hitbox out.

Also he doesnt agree with that number lol.

 

[Laijin]

All i know is, last time I talked to Skler I made fun of his character for taking like, 20 frames to get an Ftilt hitbox out.

Also he doesnt agree with that number lol.

lol @ Link's attack speed. its dumb.

I really wanna know how Kirby has a close match up with Link. lol.
Like what logic did the Kirby players use to come up with that?

 

[Pink Reaper]

idk, ask BunBun?

I'd definitely put it lower than that but I wouldnt take it to the extreme that Skler wants it at. On smaller stages it's definitely not nearly as bad as most people would assume since it forces Link out of a camping style of play and like i mentioned, he's slow as balls when it comes to actually attacking. Kirby can play a poke game abusing the fact that his tilts are faster than EVERYTHING Link has(Not joking, links fastest move is his Jab which takes 7 frames to come out, Kirby's slowest tilt takes 5)

Larger stages widen the gap between the two however as even though Kirby isnt necessarily slower than Link he still has to play the catch up game which is not something he's great at.

To put it at extreme's I'd put DL/KJ at 30/70 but Yoshi's and FoD at 40/60. I dont however like the idea of putting the match up at 35/65(which im sure at least someone would point out) just because that situation doesnt happen, Kirby's either in a "You're getting *****" or a "You're might pull it off" situation, there's no real inbetween.

that's just me however, im sure others have other opinions.

 

[rhan]

play cosmo with roy. do it. i agree with his assessment of the match-up 100%

Yeah tell the non Roy players to play Roy against a Zelda player. That's fool proof.

If you're not dumb, you won't get hit by Warlock Punch as Young Link. Same thing as Roy's kill moves against Zelda (dsmash will kill, but it is a gamble)

Okay... That's still player dependent. And Warlock punch cannot be compared to ROy's kill moves...

I don't get what you're trying to say here.

Zone: All of Roy's moves that outrange and are weak lead into combos that kill.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah tell the non Roy players to play Roy against a Zelda player. That's fool proof.

Yeah I should take the match-up from the person who plays neither, right?