Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Pi]

@kage
There is no way of knowing a matchup in the current metagame 100%

in any given matchup at most you can pit one characters options vs. the others
if character A has more options than character B, character A in all probability has a better chance of winning, due to having more options to work with.

But then you factor in matchup knowledge (which yea, let's assume it's even amongst two players), choice of approaches, choice of counters, choice of defensive options, etc. etc. etc.

and the options that character A has that character B doesn't have may not even come into play, at all.

to put that into an example;

Let's say there is a counter and a punish to SHFFL Fair
But SHFFL Fair is a counter to x approach
If Fair is used to counter x then there is not chance to counter it, but if Fair is baited, then it can be countered.

And that's assuming you tried to counter x with Fair, instead of not risking the bait.

If all Pichu has is Nair, and every thing else he throws out is **** and totally counterable, but Nair works in x situation, then all the pichu can/needs to do is look for x to occur, and Nair.

Now you can say then player B can just not x, but when you pit offense vs. defense, it's a guessing game. The pichu doesn't have to approach, or nair, if it's not safe. Neither does his opponent have to give up options, that is, if he doesn't mind not attacking first.

In that instance, you can argue why doesn't he just spam safe aerials.
Well in that case, seeing as how you've chosen to go air borne, your trajectory is predictable and punishable. Even if you double jump. Staying grounded offers the most versatile spacing, but the attacks are generally more laggy.

It's fine to rank one characters moveset against anothers, but that is not an accurate representation of how the characters moveset gets put to use.

 

[BigWenz]

The matchup between Marf and Fawx should be 55:45 or 60:40 in Marf's favor.

umm the reasoning behind this is.....? maybe at a lower level and by lower levels i mean where marth can just swing dat sword around and get tipper f smashes all day and people dont know how to DI could it ever be that bad fox (60:40)

 

[MalwareDie]

Doc King is just ********. He'd be saying that Marth vs Fox is 70-30 if he hadn't already been told off.

 

[rhan]

Marth v Fox is 50-50.

No reasoning. Just two ****** *** characters can out gay each other in many ways.

 

[Winston]

@ kniht

if you can identify the two characters' options and approximate the expected payoffs accurately then you can arrive at a matchup value based on that. It's just usually hard to do that.

There's no way of knowing a matchup 100% because no characters' options and strategies are fully known

 

[t3h Icy]

Ultimately though, this can be used as a reference for newer players or people that are unfamiliar with match-ups. Even with counting rounding to whole numbers, we're probably not exact on many if any.

 

[Winston]

yeah, im not questioning the usefulness of the chart. just responding to kniht's thoughts on why matchups values are hard to determine

 

[Pi]

@ kniht

if you can identify the two characters' options and approximate the expected payoffs accurately then you can arrive at a matchup value based on that. It's just usually hard to do that.

There's no way of knowing a matchup 100% because no characters' options and strategies are fully known

I agree
and I'll also say that as well as countless amounts of variables involved in determining a matchup
you have the human factor, and the playstyle they choose to use

And regardless of the actual ## matchup, if it comes down to offense vs. defense, it's a guessing game that any character can win.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I think its easy to say that there is a complete metagame. That takes everything into account. We will probably just never have access to that unless this game is played for the next....30 years and then some more.

The best we can do is talk about the current metagame while acknowledging mild counts of unknowns and character potential.

opinions are opinions, how do you validate them?

Its not about validating opionions. Its more about presenting a valid argument in the first place. As long as your opinion is supported with relevant data then I would say its a valid opinion. whether or not person X or person Y is correct is something entirely different.

You pretty much have to stack them up against each other and possibly wait for more tourney matches to be played. somtimes you get stuck going with majority when to valid opinions are relatively equal.

So all Im really saying is ppl come in here and just make claims, and just throw youtube or tournament results as data but they often dont have anything that has to do with the match itself. Ppl who just agree also dont count unless they have reasons for why they agreed.

 

[x After Dawn x]

thanks for removing me off msn eric

 

[mallu000]

Ultimately though, this can be used as a reference for newer players or people that are unfamiliar with match-ups.

I agree and I don't see why good or experienced players should even care about the numbers and stuff. Personally I think those numbers are good for nothing, I prefer the SSB64 version. That's because you really have to know the matchup to understand it. You can't just pick a mu that's 55:45 for your character and think that you're gonna win just because the numbers are on your side. Not sure if anyone thinks that way but for newer players I think I'd be better to have that advantage/slight advantage/even etc. Imo "slight advantage" gives a better general idea of that MU rather than 55:45 or 60:40

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its not about validating opionions. Its more about presenting a valid argument in the first place. As long as your opinion is supported with relevant data then I would say its a valid opinion. whether or not person X or person Y is correct is something entirely different.

your 3 sentences are all separate ideas.

present a valid argument - i agree
use relevant data - i agree, though i dont think we agree on what relevant data is
3rd is self evident

 

[ponylover123456789]

kaostar got this.

and sveet what the **** are you doing just deconstructing his little points on that page like this. That post was like the worst post i've ever seen, take it away and this thread gets much better.

Also fox marth is like 60-40 fox. Plz guys

And if there were a new player, the last thing I would want to do is direct him or her to the chart. Like just let them feel out their character that they like. The world doesn't need another gay spacie

 

[t3h Icy]

I agree and I don't see why good or experienced players should even care about the numbers and stuff. Personally I think those numbers are good for nothing, I prefer the SSB64 version. That's because you really have to know the matchup to understand it. You can't just pick a mu that's 55:45 for your character and think that you're gonna win just because the numbers are on your side. Not sure if anyone thinks that way but for newer players I think I'd be better to have that advantage/slight advantage/even etc. Imo "slight advantage" gives a better general idea of that MU rather than 55:45 or 60:40

Blah, the advantage and numerical systems are always debatable. Also what you refer to with expecting to win easily due to a 55:45 match-up seems more like a lesser player that doesn't know the match-up properly. SSB64 also works out differently than Melee where Melee is a lot more hit for hit, rather than 0-death combos, so the numbers are more related to the difficulty of getting each hit (and of course dozens of other factors), while SSB64 is more who can get the first hit (and often do a huge combo). So a 55:45 match-up in Melee is more of 55:45 per hit, while SSB64 55:45 is who's more likely to get each stock (as in a larger increment).

That probably doesn't make much sense, but ultimately SSB64 has a lot less room for error when playing good players.

thanks for removing me off msn eric

I always keep my contact list small, nothing against you. I'll re-add you tonight if I'm not busy.

 

[KAOSTAR]

your 3 sentences are all separate ideas.

present a valid argument - i agree
use relevant data - i agree, though i dont think we agree on what relevant data is
3rd is self evident

out of curiosity what consists of relevant data to you?

and my points werent separate. if you can support an opinion then its valid.

if your examples don't directly pertain to the subject then the support doesn't actually fit.

once two valid opinions are presented you can jump through hoops and do analysis to try and determine which is more plausible.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

an opinion is an opinion. you seem to imply that data such as player X vs player Y or player A says B, that it is more relevant than simply playing the game.

 

[KAOSTAR]

or you read into my implications incorrectly.

an example:

marth out ranges pichu with every move by a significant margin. my opinion is, I think marth will have a significant advantage based on my derived conclusion that pichu will have a very difficult time hitting marth if marth can simply call his approaches.

I am not referencing something like mango says mario is pretty good = fact.

the data should be from gameplay.

he said she said he ***** he lost can also support opinions, but imo (lol) they arent as good as solid game driven facts and the resulting conclusions from them.

 

[mallu000]

Blah, the advantage and numerical systems are always debatable. Also what you refer to with expecting to win easily due to a 55:45 match-up seems more like a lesser player that doesn't know the match-up properly. SSB64 also works out differently than Melee where Melee is a lot more hit for hit, rather than 0-death combos, so the numbers are more related to the difficulty of getting each hit (and of course dozens of other factors), while SSB64 is more who can get the first hit (and often do a huge combo). So a 55:45 match-up in Melee is more of 55:45 per hit, while SSB64 55:45 is who's more likely to get each stock (as in a larger increment).

That probably doesn't make much sense, but ultimately SSB64 has a lot less room for error when playing good players.



I always keep my contact list small, nothing against you. I'll re-add you tonight if I'm not busy.

Well I suppose that makes sense, I have nothing to ad. But still I don't like the numbers no matter how much they make sense. : D Now I just wanna see this Chart completed and see how it looks.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This list should assume Wobbling is legal. I believe that is the norm for most tournaments nowadays, especially large ones.

 

[HT F8]

This list should assume Wobbling is legal. I believe that is the norm for most tournaments nowadays, especially large ones.

From RoM3 thread:

WOBBLING IS BANNED .. unless of course you are doing so to inui !

 

[Merkuri]

Wobbling is banned at about half of major tournaments now. I think the wide spread majority of smaller tournaments have it banned.

 

[t3h Icy]

Maybe I'll make a side chart for Inui so he knows the match-ups too.

EDIT: Also I'll try to update this sometime this weekend.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Side chart sounds dumb. Everyone should just man up.

No actually proof wobbling is too good.....so should be standard that its legal. That includes within the MBR ruleset, not just up to TO.

This chart should represent the legality of the technique.

 

[t3h Icy]

Update:

DK 50:50 Doc, DK 40:60 ICs, DK 55:45 Link, Zelda 50:50 Doc, Zelda 30:70 Falcon, Zelda 25:75 Fox, Zelda 40:60 Ganon, Zelda 30:70 Marth, Zelda 45:55 Mewtwo, Zelda 40:60 Peach, Zelda 65:35 Pichu, Zelda 70:30 Roy, Zelda 10:90 Sheik

I was going to make a ranked chart for this, but either having the "no data" set as 0 or 50 results in a big mess, so maybe if we ever get most of it filled.

Though I suppose people are really tired of match-up crap.

Side chart sounds dumb. Everyone should just man up..

-_- I wasn't serious.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Uhhh me either.
*runs away*

but seriously...Im glad haha

 

[Pi]

none of this matters
you either can or you can't
from winning a tournament to punishing a single move

 

[KAOSTAR]

none of this matters
you either can or you can't
from winning a tournament to punishing a single move

I don't get it.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

I live to see the day Zelda doesn't get 90-10'd by Fox.

 

[rhan]

How does Zelda have a 70 advantage against Roy but Young Link has a 60 advantage against Roy?

Young Link can camp the nuts off Roy. Zelda's definitely got it harder in the match-up. I don't believe it's that good for her.

 

[Laijin]

How does Zelda have a 70 advantage against Roy but Young Link has a 60 advantage against Roy?

Young Link can camp the nuts off Roy. Zelda's definitely got it harder in the match-up. I don't believe it's that good for her.

Agreed. There is no logical reason why Zelda should have more of an advantage than YL against Roy

 

[rhan]

I'm sticking with what we discussed in our match-up thread. Maybe even try to bump that match-up a little more in our favor to try and even out this confusion of Zelda excelling more then Young Link.

But it's either the Zelda players are being too optimistic. Or that we're being too pessimistic.

 

[KAOSTAR]

you should know your characters MUs.

post them accurately and don't worry about what the zelda players post.

lets be honest, you don't actually know the zelda roy MU so you can't really be like "oh imo yl is better than zelda so im going to try to adjust my MUs off zelda's"

quit trying to pad stats.

 

[Merkuri]

^ Well that logic only works if you assume the match up was correct to begin with, which we haven't evidence for. I agree with Rhan and Lajin that Zelda shouldn't have a higher advantage against Roy than YL. Roy actually out ranges Zelda, but those projectiles are a ***** for him to deal with.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I would assume that the yl players, rhan, and laijin would have done their MU accurately.

if the basis for raising yl zelda is that they think roy is too high means they really don't know what it is... or

im just pointing out that rhan and laijin are still on the grind trying to move yl up on the tier list. plenty of MUs are ?able, they chose a roy one because yl is tied with roy.

if we can't move yl up...lets move everyone else down. lol.

 

[Merkuri]

Well that makes sense. But I'm pretty sure that LIJin and Rahn are arguing isn't that YL's match up against Roy should be better, it's that Zelda'S match up against Roy should be worst. They're saying that the Zelda players are wrong in their analysis.

And while I agree that Rahn and Lagin(especially Lagin) maybe trying to move YL up in the tier list that doesn't make their argument less valid. There is no sensible reason why Zelda would have more of an advantage against Roy that YL.

 

[Uffe]

I'm not sure what people will say to this, so I guess you can feel free to change your opinion on this whole thing.

Samus >> Ness (60:40)
I fight my brother's Samus a lot and he still gives me a lot of trouble.

Fox = Ness (50:50)
I think Falco has a better chance against Ness. I fight my friends Fox sometimes and a lot of his attacks are predictable but still somehow effective. **** uair! I'm most likely wrong with this one, but if anyone else agrees, great.

Yoshi = Ness (50:50)
I've never fought a good Yoshi before, but my other friend who plays just as competitively, him and I usually go about even.

Link > Ness (55:45)
Let's just say **** Link and his good range.

These are just my thoughts. If you disagree with me, it's fine. I'm not going to complain.

 

[Geist]

Samus >> Ness (60:40)
I fight my brother's Samus a lot and he still gives me a lot of trouble.

Well, I don't think >> is proportionate to 60:40.

But personally, 65:35 is what I get out of the matchup. Problem with Ness is there's so little players that it's hard to get solid matchup experience, so I really don't know for sure.

Fox = Ness (50:50)

wut
80:20, at best for Ness.

 

[otg]

......

*vomits blood*

 

[Fletch]

Fox = Ness (50:50)
I think Falco has a better chance against Ness. I fight my friends Fox sometimes and a lot of his attacks are predictable but still somehow effective. **** uair! I'm most likely wrong with this one, but if anyone else agrees, great.

I don't think anyone is going to ever come close to agreeing with this; Fox's shield pressure is too much for Ness to handle, and while Ness can combo Fox a bit, that requires him to actually get a hit in which is near impossible for Ness against Fox's speed and priority. This is a pretty **** matchup.

 

[Uffe]

wut
80:20, at best for Ness.

Like I said, I'm most likely wrong. I just figured I'd come in and see if I could contribute to this in any way possible. :S

I don't think anyone is going to ever come close to agreeing with this; Fox's shield pressure is too much for Ness to handle, and while Ness can combo Fox a bit, that requires him to actually get a hit in which is near impossible for Ness against Fox's speed and priority. This is a pretty **** matchup.

Okay then. Thanks for the advice.