Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Skler]

Kirby can't catch Link and is Kirby. How is Kirby vs Link anywhere near 55/45?

Maybe the chart means PAL kirby. That dude is heavyyyyyyy.

 

[Druggedfox]

Kirby can't catch Link and is Kirby. How is Kirby vs Link anywhere near 55/45?

Maybe the chart means PAL kirby. That dude is heavyyyyyyy.

Maybe kirby players overrate their character?

 

[unknown522]

wouldn't kirby being heavier in pal be worse for him?

That means he gets combo'd easier by everyone.

Also, someone's gonna have to explain how zelda beats the ICs?

A charcter that sucks on the ground, with bad physics, very slow and unsafe aerials, which leads to shield grab -> wobble.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i would hardly say her aerials are slow and unsafe. her ground attacks are actually fairly good against ICs, fsmash and dsmash both can't be punished out of shield. fairs and bairs make a decent wall. Ill get trail vs cosmo recorded this weekend.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's hard for ICs to dash dance around Zelda's kicks because Nana lags behind and will get hit by them even if Popo does manage to dodge. So they have to rely on wavedashing in. Zelda's f-smash functions similarly to Peach's d-smash in the matchup, in that it's a panic button. Zelda can throw them out randomly and not really get punished; often ICs will find themselves wavedashing right into it.

In the same way that Peach can float and do fairs almost completely immune to the ICs on the ground, Zelda can SH, wait and kick if necessary. It's hard to get past her range, and she doesn't have to be on the ground for long, so waiting to punish her for landing can be hard. She might choose to not even land but instead double jump away to safety or something ...

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

Doc 40:60 Falcon, Fox 60:40 Falcon, Fox 60:40 Pikachu, Fox 55:45 Samus, ICs 50:50 Falco, ICs 45:55 Fox, ICs 35:65 Ganon, ICs 30:70 Peach, Jigglypuff 50:50 Falco, Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon, Jigglypuff 40:60 Fox, Jigglypuff 55:45 Peach, Marth 50:50 Falcon, Marth 60:40 Mario, Marth 60:40 Peach, Marth 40:60 Sheik, Peach 30:70 Fox, Roy 30:70 Peach, Y.Link 80:20 Bowser, Y.Link 40:60 Falcon, Y.Link 35:65 Sheik

Thanks to CrimsonBlur for helping out with compiling all the Marth board stuff. <3

 

[JPOBS]

see now thats a list i can look at and agree with. I'd say every single one of those seems about right , except jiggs falcon. I thought puff had a bigger advantage on falcon than that but tis a good list.

 

[GawdImFoxy]

The whole chart doesn't load for me. Anyone else having this problem?

I tried mobile at first, and now I'm on a laptop and it still doesn't load. Black spaces where I SHOULD SEE NUMBAZ.

 

[t3h Icy]

lolololololol

 

[CloneHat]

Kirby's only close matchup is Pichu (which Kirby looses in my experience) and maybe Bowser or some other bottom tier; he loses the rest badly. Instead, Kirby players seem to think he has 35-65 matchups against some of the best characters in the game, and a huge advantage on his Pichu matchup, which is relatively even.

Things are simply not in perspective: most of Kirby's matchups are 10 points or more too high. Does anyone seriously believe he will win 45 out of 100 sets against Falcon?

 

[JPOBS]

funny that the only completed row on the chart is kirby :/

anyway Icy, what did u do with the numbers from the old chart? scratched em?

 

[BunBun]

Kirby can't catch Link and is Kirby. How is Kirby vs Link anywhere near 55/45?

Maybe the chart means PAL kirby. That dude is heavyyyyyyy.

I agree with you, personally.

 

[t3h Icy]

funny that the only completed row on the chart is kirby :/

anyway Icy, what did u do with the numbers from the old chart? scratched em?

I have everything.

 

[Ripple]

roy vs. kirby is relatively even or in kirby's favor which is stupid.

 

[Laijin]

Kirby can't catch Link and is Kirby. How is Kirby vs Link anywhere near 55/45?

Maybe the chart means PAL kirby. That dude is heavyyyyyyy.

This literally means Kirby will win 55 times out of 100 against Link.
How does that make you feel? lol.

 

[BunBun]

It's so awesome rofl.

<3 you Ripple

 

[N64]

Teh_icy:

Axe, zig, chad, and I are in the process (whenever i can get us all available) of compiling a matchup list of pika's matchups from pika's persective. This could change, but tentatively we've agreed on the following:

pika v fox: 35:65
pika v falco 35:65
pika v marth 40:60
pika v peach 35:65

more to come in like a week. yay pikachu.

 

[t3h Icy]

Sounds good. I'll update those along with whatever else next time. Thanks Pikas. =)

 

[victra♥]

peach vs pikachu is so hard T_T

 

[Geist]

I actually expected spacies to be better for Pikachu than that. The way axe disposes of space animals is inspiring.

 

[JPOBS]

he has to work so much harder tho

watching his matches is inspiring cuz he gets lots of upsmash reads, and punishes the living hell out of misstechs and he rarely drops edgeguards, thats just skill.

 

[Druggedfox]

The pikachu players are the first realistic low tier mains I've seen in all these threads... I'm so impressed...

 

[Rappster]

To me, saying that luigi-Kirby is 75-25 means that for every 3 stocks luigi takes, Kirby takes one.

65-35 is roughly 2-1, and what I'd call a counter.


That's what the numbers should be. Relative speed of stock taking. That way it shows how good/bad the matchup is.

yay, someone who agrees with me.
when was the last time a prominent (top five) puff lost in tournament to a [insert negligible tier character here]?
not in a long time, right?
does that mean that puff's match up with [negligible tier character] is 100-0?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

this is the img icy sent me for use on the TVRL/shamelessplug

 

[BigWenz]

maybe its cause i see armada give so many foxes da business but i have a hard time believeing fox peach is 70 30 id say 40 60 or 35 65 but 30 70 is too much in my opinion but if anyone can explain clearly why its taht bad ill accept 70 - 30 fox

 

[john!]

^ actually i'm the opposite, i lol'd when i saw fox/peach at only 60:40 and -1. this is peach's worst matchup we're talking about here. it's also funny how that random peach +1 kirby is based entirely off bunbun and i at poe 3. not saying it's inaccurate, but still, when's the last time a kirby played a peach?

 

[victra♥]

fox/peach is a hella tough match up for peach. drill waveshine upsmash is auto-kill pretty much. As far as I know, you can't escape out of it. IIRC

 

[BunBun]

^ actually i'm the opposite, i lol'd when i saw fox/peach at only 60:40 and -1. this is peach's worst matchup we're talking about here. it's also funny how that random peach +1 kirby is based entirely off bunbun and i at poe 3. not saying it's inaccurate, but still, when's the last time a kirby played a peach?

It's also based off of a lot of matches with other peach players. Notably DoH because he's weird and knows the matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think Kirby Peach is that bad and have never really felt that way.

Kirby is actually faster than the other character for pure ground movement. This is a rare and special occasion. He's also got similar aerial mobility. Again, a rare and special occasion.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Teh_icy:

Axe, zig, chad, and I are in the process (whenever i can get us all available) of compiling a matchup list of pika's matchups from pika's persective. This could change, but tentatively we've agreed on the following:

pika v fox: 35:65
pika v falco 35:65
pika v marth 40:60
pika v peach 35:65

more to come in like a week. yay pikachu.

I know you guys are the Pika experts here, and I normally never post anything debate wise unless I'm sure of it, and I'm not in this case...but...

There is absolutely no way Pikachu loses that bad to Fox or Falco. There's absolutely no way. She has everything she needs to solidly win that matchup vs both of those characters, Fox moreso. It's not an advantage, but Pika does NOT have to fight that hard against those characters.

If I may ask, what are you basing the matchups on?

 

[BunBun]

In before pikachu's gender argument

 

[Druggedfox]

fox/peach is a hella tough match up for peach. drill waveshine upsmash is auto-kill pretty much. As far as I know, you can't escape out of it. IIRC

Fox's dair will eventually become a useless move in competitive play. You can SDI each individual hit of the dair to get out of range of fox's shine... in fact, when I play against my training partner... I've had to learn to dair --> spotdodge because he can grab me.

Peach could easily SDI --> shield/dsmash/something the fox

That said, I still think it's a tough matchup for peach... just that at a high level fox should not be able to rely on dair as a set up for waveshining... not consistently anyway, maybe occasionally.

 

[JPOBS]

. It's not an advantage, but Pika does NOT have to fight that hard against those characters.

you're crazy. I think you people watch to many axe vds and think "omg pikachu is so good"

look again, axe is playing VERY hard vs those spacies. Watch closely and see how many combos he drops. Very few. Watch how many times he reads their techs and gets upsmash kills. Watch how his reaction on miss techs is so fast that he upsmashes almost every single one.

pikachu has tools yes, but the pikachu players has to be nearly perfect just to go even (stockwise) the spacie. Meanwhile the spacie has the usually garunteed upthrow upair or shine combos.

I totally see pika being fairly disadvantaged vs the both of them. axe is just a baller.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sdi is so gay

also, agreed about spacies vs pika, though i have no actual experience

 

[FoxLisk]

SDI is so good. it lets otherwise useless characters play against fox.

 

[KAOSTAR]

you're crazy. I think you people watch to many axe vds and think "omg pikachu is so good"

look again, axe is playing VERY hard vs those spacies. Watch closely and see how many combos he drops. Very few. Watch how many times he reads their techs and gets upsmash kills. Watch how his reaction on miss techs is so fast that he upsmashes almost every single one.

pikachu has tools yes, but the pikachu players has to be nearly perfect just to go even (stockwise) the spacie. Meanwhile the spacie has the usually garunteed upthrow upair or shine combos.

I totally see pika being fairly disadvantaged vs the both of them. axe is just a baller.

so true. low tier mains have to execute at such high levels just to level the playing field.

fox/falco **** pikachu lol. youtube is telling lies.

 

[N64]

We are assuming high level play, equal skill levels, equal matchup experience, equal motivation, etc. Numbers are based on percentage of matchups each character should win. Also these numbers are tentative, and it should be noted that fox/falco were 65 leaning 60, while peach was 65 leaning 70, but we felt each weren't good/bad enough to move and increment in those directions.

And jesiah knows what he's talking about, I've played him a few times and he's had plenty of practice against pikapika. And I think I see what you're saying Jesiah. I agree that pikachu has the tools to absolutely **** fox/falco, but it's more about punishing fox/falco making poor decisions than pikachu forming a good offense against them. If fox/falco play smart and tight, as he should, it's very difficult for pika to create openings. He has to play fox/falco's game, which he loses.

 

[KAOSTAR]

IC-since you are the chart guy im leaving it up to you.

please put a meaning on these numbers.

when we started adding digits they only had meaning in relation to themselves, arbitrary.

now im seeing people claim its the percentage of sets, percentage of games, probability of them winning, level of difficulty (mine), and that thing bun bun said which imo makes more sense than some of the others.

I think a good place to start getting people on the same page is to define what we are trying to define. or else we should go back to the advantage system which I believe is finished.

I personally like the numbers to mean the level of difficulty in wining a game. not making any claims that can't be proven. imo its dumb to say x should win y number of games/sets. too many other factors. might as well do an experiment and record the outcomes of the MUs if you go that route.

 

[BunBun]

If you assume equal everything, then the character with the advantage will always win, no matter how slight.


You know, equal being equal, and then having only one different part...

 

[TheGoat]

Fox's dair will eventually become a useless move in competitive play. You can SDI each individual hit of the dair to get out of range of fox's shine... in fact, when I play against my training partner... I've had to learn to dair --> spotdodge because he can grab me.

Peach could easily SDI --> shield/dsmash/something the fox

That said, I still think it's a tough matchup for peach... just that at a high level fox should not be able to rely on dair as a set up for waveshining... not consistently anyway, maybe occasionally.

Scary , I guess same thing with falco's lasers.