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Druggedfox

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otg said:
Reading some of these posts is painful. How did some of you get in the MBR?
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I'm not sure if you're referring to me or someone else, but I'm fairly sure everyone who's in the MBR got voted on by already current members based on the intelligence of their posting.

Also, PB&J knows what's up. I showed several people at a smashfest that it was definitely possible. Even if you miss the tech chase, it's REALLY easy to tell (After the falcon does it for a bit) that the falcon just messed up.

@GustavWind

The slide off edge thing is true, but that goes for all tech chasing etc. Falcon vs sheik, falcons could just tech all the way to the edge and slide off, but no one seems to do that.

Also, the tech in place being harder? You're absolutely right. How do I deal with it? It's sort of like edgeguarding fox and falco. You assume they will side-b, and react to the up-b, because it's so much slower. When I do it with falcon, I assume they're teching in place, and react fast enough when I see them go a particular direction.

Why don't you just try it? It honestly doesn't require top notch reaction time, just above average imo.

@Kage

No doubt they did, but the reason I was posting in general was to the reference that PP proved falco-falcon is 65:35. I think he's capable of proving it, but the fact of the matter is that he hasn't had to fight falcons in tourney.

Btw, the only time I recall shiz playing darkrain was back at INNsomnia V which was 2007... I hardly count that (though, iirc darkrain two stocked him twice?). There might have been another time I'm forgetting. More recently is pound4 zhu vs darkrain, where zhu went beast mode last stock. Also, didn't shiz vs SS at that california tournament go to match 5?

Also, I believe mango posted his opinion saying that the more he plays the matchup, the more he thinks its 60-40. I could be wrong on quoting him for that, but that's what I recall reading.
 
Fortress | Sveet

Fortress | Sveet

▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
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I can't believe anyone is still debating anything in this thread. Not because theres nothing to debate, but the number of people with horrible arguments and bad logic skills far outnumber everyone else. Not to mention the trolls who deliberately post garbage instead of trying to help at all.
 
Winston

Winston

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Druggedfox said:
The slide off edge thing is true, but that goes for all tech chasing etc. Falcon vs sheik, falcons could just tech all the way to the edge and slide off, but no one seems to do that.

Also, the tech in place being harder? You're absolutely right. How do I deal with it? It's sort of like edgeguarding fox and falco. You assume they will side-b, and react to the up-b, because it's so much slower. When I do it with falcon, I assume they're teching in place, and react fast enough when I see them go a particular direction.

Why don't you just try it? It honestly doesn't require top notch reaction time, just above average imo.
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1). Sheik gets a higher reward from Falcon tech rolling, because of being able to techchase with dash attack on reaction and launching him into near-guaranteed combos.

2). I have tried it extensively, which is why I'm arguing with you >.> I use it as a staple whenever I play falcon vs. a fastfaller. But I use it to set up for higher percentage guesses, since I think that's what it's best used for because of the reasons I mentioned. The person I play most often will consistently slide off the edge if I go for a regrab in the general area near the edge.

3). The reason I say there's probably about a 10% error rate on tech in place is because I mess it up like 20% of the time, and I see a lot of top players mess it up; sheiks, foxes, falcons, and marths alike. My friends who I've talked to about it think they can't do it at all. I dunno where the reaction time required to do it 100% lies in relation to the average reaction time.

That said I personally think most players could get it down almost perfectly with a lot of practice, but I just like to be conservative in my estimates about things that are possible but not yet demonstrated to be effective.

4). The biggest issue is probably the crouching method to cover the missed techs options though. If it proves to be viable to do consistently (and I'm not sure why it wouldn't be), that would make going for the regrab wayyyy better. With the methods that Falcons currently use to cover it (dashdance or run up and shield to try and trick them into doing something) it's not quite the best thing since sliced bread.
 
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Druggedfox

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Melee is serious business ;)

1) You're right, sheik does get a higher reward on tech chasing falcon... I never said anything to the contrary. I'm simply saying that the slide off the edge tactic works to avoid any tech chase regrab.

2) I mentioned earlier, don't go for a regrab next to the edge. The beauty of being next to the edge, as you said, is that it lowers the number of options they have. If you're grabbing next to an edge, it should be more or less a free hit... which with falcon means ****.

3) Fair enough, I understand the want of underestimating so you don't exaggerate something accidentally. "That said I personally think most players could get it down almost perfectly with a lot of practice" Pretty much that, it took me a day of playing falcon only, I was done.

4) That's the only part of tech chasing that I feel should have some prediction with it. I personally think crouching *should* work, though I haven't tested it enough. That said, I normally dash dance right outside their get up attack range and go from there. The regrab is possible, but the reaction required for it is actually pretty difficult, I'm not going to lie. It's certainly possible... but not something I would rely on consistently. Regardless, that's where players like darkrain come in. Not teching against darkrain often = stock... that's enough to scare any good player into teching often. When they realize what repeatedly teching is doing to them, all you have to do is start thinking "get ready for him not to tech", and if you can react/predict correctly: bam half a stock or more.
 
Roneblaster

Roneblaster

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why falcons dont go for infinite regrabs:

we arent robots. if we **** up by even the tiniest margin this "guaranteed" tech chase gets our face *****. Spacies can shine their way out of it, sheik can spotdodge to well whatever the **** she wants.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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Meh. Our options aren't really that much better.

We have a dash attack that people can ground themselves from until like 50%+. And if they ground tech it, they get out for free and give us a combo if they're a space animal.

We have tilts, but those have the same issue. They can ground themselves from them forever and then some, and if they ground tech it then they get out for free. Go Shine, go.

Our boost grab is ridiculous though. And D-smash ***** if they tech to the edge.
 
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Druggedfox

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Falcon doesn't need to be a robot >.>

That mentality isn't good at all, honestly. You should practice something to the extent that you don't mess it up. In smash unless something is ridiculously difficult (like expecting fox players to successfully abuse 10 multishines in a row midmatch), the players at a high level are assumed to be familiar and capable of all possible/standard tactics. This isn't infinite shining with fox on a flat surface, it's watching your opponent and reacting.

Humans are more than capable of doing this, and what's more: you can realize if you're going to mess up. If you're too slow, you should be able to notice, and then bail out. This can even work to your advantage if you're smart, because you can bait that shine/spot dodge. They'll notice you're too slow, and immediately try to get out of it. You should be just as familiar with your character and KNOW if you can't get it, in which case you adapt accordingly. I do this with marth all the time when tech chasing fastfallers. And don't tell me marth doesn't get punished to hell if a sheik grabs him, or if a falco starts platform comboing me. What do I do? Notice I'm too slow and try to bait a reaction... you don't have to be a robot.
 
Roneblaster

Roneblaster

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if were gonna bait something, instead were just going to attempt to not FF a stomp which can be countered by.....................shielding. at this point its just bickering back and forth because then its just about "well then the person being tech chased can do............" i mean its not like they dont have the ability to react either.


falcons tech chases are ****. dont think im saying anything else.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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That reminds me of a funny story.

The gist of it is that Xelic said something like, "Well, KirbyKaze is gay because... duh."

And the funny part is that he thought RaynEX liked dudes when RaynEX is in fact completely heterosexual.
 
TheGoat

TheGoat

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Roneblaster said:
why falcons dont go for infinite regrabs:

we arent robots. if we **** up by even the tiniest margin this "guaranteed" tech chase gets our face *****. Spacies can shine their way out of it, sheik can spotdodge to well whatever the **** she wants.
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Thank you for your input.

Druggedfox said:
Falcon doesn't need to be a robot >.>

That mentality isn't good at all, honestly. You should practice something to the extent that you don't mess it up. In smash unless something is ridiculously difficult (like expecting fox players to successfully abuse 10 multishines in a row midmatch), the players at a high level are assumed to be familiar and capable of all possible/standard tactics. This isn't infinite shining with fox on a flat surface, it's watching your opponent and reacting.
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I agree with druggedfox here; I'm not saying tech chasing is a cinch, by any means, but it's honestly not that hard. People playing at a competitive level should have mastered it.

As you posted Roneblaster, indeed the opponent has choices and can react too, but there are only a very limited number of scenarios, and as far as I can see, successfully following up on a tech chase should be happening more often. Again I'm not a falcon master, and this is only theorycrafting, but I think more falcons should give it a shot.
 
DJ Nintendo

DJ Nintendo

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I recorded four sets and one match with Lambchops and will be uploading them to YouTube through my channel soon. The characters I used were Fox, Marth, Samus, Bowser and Mario vs. his Falco. Only one match of the Mario set ended up getting recorded because my recording started messing up after the first match. All sets were best of five. I hope you guys will enjoy when I put them up :)
 
FoxLisk

FoxLisk

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Gustav Wind said:
^ It wasn't necessarily a reaction. If you go for a read you want to start your action late anyway so they can't react to what you're doing.
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hm. i guess that's true. i dunno, it looked like a reaction. i think in mango's position he could have waited to see m2k's tech and then regrabbed or kneed as he did on reaction. maybe he couldnt have regrabbed a tech in place, not sure.
 
Dark Sonic

Dark Sonic

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Gustav Wind said:
^ It wasn't necessarily a reaction. If you go for a read you want to start your action late anyway so they can't react to what you're doing.
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Then at the very least 3:34 was pure reaction (he visibly dashed past him and then turned around when he saw M2K techrolling towards him)


Oh, and just so eveyone knows. M2K is not a robot. He has average reaction time just like most of us.
 
Winston

Winston

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FoxLisk said:
hm. i guess that's true. i dunno, it looked like a reaction. i think in mango's position he could have waited to see m2k's tech and then regrabbed or kneed as he did on reaction. maybe he couldnt have regrabbed a tech in place, not sure.
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It could have been a reaction, I'm just saying it wasn't necessarily. It could have been the type of reaction where he expected a certain action and waited for it to happen before doing his response, but didn't allow him to fully cover the other options.

I think he maybe could have reacted to tech in place from where he was standing, but it'd be harder than the normal method of running up to where they land.

Dark Sonic said:
Then at the very least 3:34 was pure reaction (he visibly dashed past him and then turned around when he saw M2K techrolling towards him)
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yeah. that's pretty much the easiest situation to react in.
 
KirbyKaze

KirbyKaze

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This project has completely confiscated my life, darling. Consumed me as only hero work can. My best work, I must admit. Simple, elegant, yet... bold! You will die!
 
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