Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Lordydennek]

some of these lower tier mus are so far off it makes me want to hurl.
also falco wins.
lasers are better. BUT its not that big of a difference.
basically 55 or 60 falco

 

[KirbyKaze]

Watching DruggedFox blatantly wh0re himself out to the boards makes me so hot for him.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

..... is ur avatar picking her nose?

 

[Merkuri]

lots of foxes can do this on FD.

Forgot about that. But it's FD only FD.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

its more than FD.

 

[Merkuri]

its more than FD.

Really? where else? It should never happen to a smart Falco on any stage including PS.

 

[Druggedfox]

Watching DruggedFox blatantly wh0re himself out to the boards makes me so hot for him.

LOL If I ever go to a big tourney and see you, I don't think I'll be able to hold a conversation for more than 2 seconds without laughing. It's inevitable. And I mean, I'm bored of doing homework. What better to do than blatantly wh0re myself out to the boards? I wanna be the very best...

Also @Merkuri

After a certain %, falco has to rely on tech chases just as much as fox does. "It should never happen to a smart falco." Such a statement is just as true for fox players.

People still don't realize that if falco ever gets naired at low % next to the edge he should be dead =P

 

[KirbyKaze]

..... is ur avatar picking her nose?

No.........

 

[bertbusdriver]

Sorry guys I hate to interrupt but Pichu vs Roy is the most important matchup in the game. If you don't know Pichu-Roy inside and out, you'll never be successful playing melee. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that all other matchups are derivative of Pichu-Roy. The truth is, regardless of characters, the person who wins a match is the person who would have done best in Pichu vs Roy.

 

[JPOBS]

People still don't realize that if falco ever gets naired at low % next to the edge he should be dead =P

not really...

 

[Druggedfox]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGL40YkkWL4#t=0m46s

The only reason mango didn't die was that jman ****ed up.

Also, had jman done the double shine more quickly, I believe mango would have been sent at a lower trajectory, guaranteeing it even further.

I've also pulled this kill off, myself, consistently enough that I have found it to be as effective as any other standard tactic

 

[Iron Dragon]

Sami, 13 seconds into vid, same kill.

Except Jman actually gets it haha.

 

[Merkuri]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGL40YkkWL4#t=0m46s

The only reason mango didn't die was that jman ****ed up.

Also, had jman done the double shine more quickly, I believe mango would have been sent at a lower trajectory, guaranteeing it even further.

I've also pulled this kill off, myself, consistently enough that I have found it to be as effective as any other standard tactic

I really don't think jman ****ed up. Mango jumped back and then illusioned, Jman had to guess where he was gonna go. As fox you cannot expect to kill falco by jumping of the stage and reacting to his illusion, Jman probably would have been wiser to try and edge guard him from the stage.

Also had Jman done his shine too much earlier or later he would have been illusion spiked. I think you're considering theory too much instead of what is practical.

 

[Iron Dragon]

I really don't think jman ****ed up. Mango jumped back and then illusioned, Jman had to guess where he was gonna go. As fox you cannot expect to kill falco by jumping of the stage and reacting to his illusion, Jman probably would have been wiser to try and edge guard him from the stage.

Also had Jman done his shine too much earlier or later he would have been illusion spiked. I think you're considering theory too much instead of what is practical.

Not really, with some practice you can shine the illusion pretty easily lol

 

[Druggedfox]

What happened is similar to a marth trying to fair falco's side b, and timing it too late. Because, iirc, the hitbox on falco and fox's side-b are actually BEHIND them, timing it too late often causes the moves to simply cancel with each other.

I may have accepted what you said as a viable explanation if jman hadn't jumped to pretty much precisely the correct position. Had jman jumped to the wrong spot and missed, that's another story. Instead, he jumped to the right spot.

Ima go with irondragon... it isn't that hard.

 

[Iron Dragon]

In fact.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWNg95k98_o#t=1m44s

 

[1048576]

Not really, with some practice you can shine the illusion pretty easily lol

Yeah Jman just sucks

 

[Iron Dragon]

Yeah Jman just sucks

Read what Drugged and I both said. Don't be dumb lol.

 

[The Good Doctor]

Alot of the time when i shine an illusion they get hit and appear behind me.
I'm obviously doing it late, but it's not clanking

 

[Druggedfox]

Well of course that's possible as well, it depends on the particular timing of it. Honestly, the hitboxes on falco/fox's side-b is just plain weird, and I wish I knew exactly how it worked. I know what's about to happen, where it's going to hit, but I don't understand why.

I think if you timed it a bit earlier, it would clank, and if you timed it even earlier than that, it would hit them the correct direction

 

[KAOSTAR]

noobs still trying to shine illusions.

its all about jumping out turnaround shine stall and come up with the bair.

lol @ whoever thinks fox cannot 0-death falco.

side b clanks a weak move if its at the height of the ground I think. the hit box is behind it. if its not on the stage or perfectly positioned so you end over stage @ the right height it will be an air move which is hit vs hurt box.

 

[Winston]

I think if Jman had wavedashed out of the doubleshine he could have covered all the options pretty much. That's significantly harder to do, though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

shouldn't be. not for a technical fox. if you can wave shine. and double shine. its not much harder to wave double shine. only a bit of practice.

 

[Dark Hart]

dude... wave double shine is actually pretty hard lol

 

[Pi]

just bair/nair at them and guarantee the hit w/ the side B then shine them

 

[TemPesT-]

wave dbl shines easy <_< lol least i think so

edit: just practice like you learned single waveshining. all the way across FD :D

 

[KAOSTAR]

agreed. once you can double shine
correctly just wd after lol.

its learning something again, but you already know how to do it.

 

[Winston]

Well I meant, doing proper doubleshines is signficantly harder than just hitting them with two shines with the second one slightly off the ground.

 

[Merkuri]

lol @ whoever thinks fox cannot 0-death falco.

Learn to read.

I said 0 - death combo. Show me a video of a Fox doing a combo(true combo or not) from 0% or even a low percent to death outside of FD. The best you'll find is a few nairs/shines to an edge guard.

 

[Winston]

Falco also can't do a 0-death combo by your definition...

the person being comboed has to mess up, or the Falco has to get reads + techchases.

how is comboing into an edgeguard setup not a legitimate 0-death?

 

[Dark Hart]

Learn to read.

I said 0 - death combo. Show me a video of a Fox doing a combo(true combo or not) from 0% or even a low percent to death outside of FD. The best you'll find is a few nairs/shines to an edge guard.

you've obviously never seen Lozr's fox lol

 

[Merkuri]

Falco also can't do a 0-death combo by your definition...

the person being comboed has to mess up, or the Falco has to get reads + techchases.

how is comboing into an edgeguard setup not a legitimate 0-death?

I said that it didn't have to be a true combo. People mess up, no one is perfect. Falco's do 0-death combos(at least close to 0) all the time.

Comboing into an edge guard is legitimate but Falco can do that just like Fox can; I'm illustrating something Falco can do that Fox can't.

 

[Winston]

it's an arbitrary distinction since falco's "0-death"s aren't guaranteed either

they are functionally the same thing

 

[JPOBS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGL40YkkWL4#t=0m46s

The only reason mango didn't die was that jman ****ed up.

Also, had jman done the double shine more quickly, I believe mango would have been sent at a lower trajectory, guaranteeing it even further.

I've also pulled this kill off, myself, consistently enough that I have found it to be as effective as any other standard tactic

yea but u originally said any nair double shine at the ledge is death.

CC'ing would prevent this. mango jumped.

didnt read any response after this post so fak it if someone else pointed this out

 

[Merkuri]

it's an arbitrary distinction since falco's "0-death"s aren't guaranteed either

they are functionally the same thing

No the difference is that Falco's 0 - death combos can(and frequently do) happen, while Fox's 0 - death combos don't exist.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Fox has drill -> shine -> shine -> nair -> shine -> nair -> nair -> up-smash.

 

[Divinokage]

Fox has drill -> shine -> shine -> nair -> shine -> nair -> nair -> up-smash.

Wtf, that **** doesn't work..

No the difference is that Falco's 0 - death combos can(and frequently do) happen, while Fox's 0 - death combos don't exist.

Fox vs Falco is stage dependant, Fox can 0-death Falco with CG and proper mix-ups. Falco also has easy combos on Fox.

 

[KAOSTAR]

no, falco can pretty easily shine combo into f smash or dair. and without some sort of sdi its inescapable as long as the falco combos using the proper reads.

@merkuri-fox can do it to falco. in a combo. fox is much better off the grab and his combos are either directed up and away or mostly away towards the edge. its no different if you combo them off stage and then edge guard. its still legitimate.

fox can can can 0-death combo falco.

 

[Divinokage]

no, falco can pretty easily shine combo into f smash or dair. and without some sort of sdi its inescapable as long as the falco combos using the proper reads.

@merkuri-fox can do it to falco. in a combo. fox is much better off the grab and his combos are either directed up and away or mostly away towards the edge. its no different if you combo them off stage and then edge guard. its still legitimate.

fox can can can 0-death combo falco.

Ya but aren't we talking about high level play here? Top players usually SDI everything to avoid getting comboed over 40-50% dmg. With Falcon or Ganon I can usually avoid disgusting Falco combos. Fox can also avoid it. Only from 0-40 that I think it's garanteed since Fox gets stuck on the ground after the first shine/dair from Falco.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Ya but aren't we talking about high level play here? Top players usually SDI everything to avoid getting comboed over 40-50% dmg. With Falcon or Ganon I can usually avoid disgusting Falco combos. Fox can also avoid it. Only from 0-40 that I think it's garanteed since Fox gets stuck on the ground after the first shine/dair from Falco.

you can tech out the early ones or try to smash out the shine hitbox (from the dair)

it really just depends. even at top level nobody has anything close to mastery over di. its really in depth and very physically and mentally demanding. when ppl are good at it, it just means relative to most people.

0-deaths still happen all the time. im not trying to argue anything like falco gets a dair on fox then he is dead, only that its well within the realm of possibility. ppl sdi all the time, sometimes they escape combos, sometimes the opponent can still react and continue the combo, sometimes you flat out sdi into a combo that would have been dropped.

I think most combos are escaped because people mess up and don't have frame perfect reaction and have to rely on some type of prediction. not because you sdi and it was no longer possible to follow up, although that can happen.