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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

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Druggedfox

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yea but u originally said any nair double shine at the ledge is death.

CC'ing would prevent this. mango jumped.

didnt read any response after this post so fak it if someone else pointed this out
Okay, sorry. What if they dair double shine, and you tried to CC a nair? Honestly, the point is that double shine next to the edge spells out death for falco. Even at high level play, people don't abuse CC like they should. Honestly, fox should never be allowed to approach someone with anything but shine because you can CC grab the bair,uair, and nair as well as SDI the drill into a grab... hmm, something seems a bit unrealistic about consistently doing it.

Instead of getting into semantics, you could read for the point of the post, which is obviously that nair double shine = death for falco. If you like semantics, then I'll switch it to dair double shine... honestly.
 

JPOBS

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Okay, sorry. What if they dair double shine, and you tried to CC a nair? Honestly, the point is that double shine next to the edge spells out death for falco. Even at high level play, people don't abuse CC like they should. Honestly, fox should never be allowed to approach someone with anything but shine because you can CC grab the bair,uair, and nair as well as SDI the drill into a grab... hmm, something seems a bit unrealistic about consistently doing it.

Instead of getting into semantics, you could read for the point of the post, which is obviously that nair double shine = death for falco. If you like semantics, then I'll switch it to dair double shine... honestly.
im not arguing semantics, im aruing the fact that u are incredibly overexaggerating a tactic.

its one thing to say "nair double shine at the ledge is a very good and underused tactic" and its an entirely diferent thing to say "any nair at the ledge vs falco at low percent is garunteed death"

and fox can (and does) space bairs and nairs that make it hard to risk cc->grab (free punish by the fox). Also at the same time, CC is heavily abused at high levels i dont even know what your talkng about with that comment its pretty rampant.
 

Druggedfox

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If you're really awesome, double shine by itself can be hit twice :D

Idk for sure, I'm not going to lie. But I've been against a falco's shield before and simply double shined after an aerial (the aerial hit their shield) and the double shine got both hits to connect on him.
 

t3h Icy

Smash Master
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Umm, I kind of stopped reading this thread after it got dumb, but do you guys want me to update everything again? Did a conclusion with Ganon and ICs vs each other and others ever happen? And I'll re-order the list of characters on each side, despite it'll conflict with the mathematics involved from before.

Also I'll use the colours I used for the Brawl Chart visual I made since it's better:



Y/N?
 

ss118

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Idk for sure, I'm not going to lie. But I've been against a falco's shield before and simply double shined after an aerial (the aerial hit their shield) and the double shine got both hits to connect on him.
screw you. =P

The biggest problem with dair -> double shine is that, as someone pointed out, you stay on the ground. They have the opportunity to jump out after being shined, unless they SDI up and don't touch the ground first. Then sucks to be them.

The nair pops them up slightly so that the first shine, even with good DI, sets up into the second shine to knock them off the stage at an incredible angle so that it makes it impossible for Falco(or even an opposing Fox) to recover in a non-gimp-able fashion(aka to use the side B).

The only chance the falco has is some SDI on the 2nd shine so that you land hard on the stage before bouncing offstage, so you have that slide effect to jump out.

I admit I've only looked at this page so far, so if anyone has mentioned something like this I apologize.
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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I coulda swore that only doesn't work for people who don't fall from shine. because you can wave double shine falcon across fd.

so I think falco is still SOL.
 

t3h Icy

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Since a lot of people dislike the tier list, I feel like taking the chart seriously again so people have a 2nd reference as to how good characters are.

Do you guys want to...

-Continue with numbers, including Middle/Low/Bottom tiers?
-Revise the top 7's match-ups and decide from there?
-Revert back to (dis)advantages only and work on making everything as a whole?
-Put blanks in match-ups we haven't discussed so there's no off-topic arguing (similar to Brawl's)?
-Set up match-up threads on each character board and use the chart as a gathering place (similar to Brawl's)?
-Scrap the project?
-Other ideas?

I just like statistics, data, mathematics, and making charts, so it's up to you guys on what we'll do.
 

rhan

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The point of a match-up chart if they're just going to base future tier lists off the tourney result?

No seriously I want to kepe this alive. And I would like to transition all of the match-ups into a number percentile form.
 

Cosmo!

nerf zelda's dsmash
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If Zelda:Ganon is -1, I don't see how DK, Pikachu, Link, and Young Link are -2.

Maybe we should use the melee icons instead of the brawl ones?
 

idea

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there really should be matchup threads in each character's forum, but by no means should that all fall on you.

+1 for using blanks. don't care about icons.
 

t3h Icy

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I didn't have access to the Melee icons, but if someone could link me, I'll definitely use them the next time I give the chart a visual update.

If we were to do blanks for empty data, which exactly would we choose to blank out, considering we spent a great deal of time getting what we have done already. This is why I kind of like the idea of having an official thread in each character's board, but I'm not sure how well it would work out.
 

Laijin

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That Young Link vs Mewtwo being +1 in YL's favor..still bothers me.
Should at least be +2 in YL's favor at the very least..
Why?
Mewtwo doesn't really have any options for when YL starts camping. Once that tent is up and the campfire is burning, his options are gone. He only really has a chance on smaller levels
 

Merkuri

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^ You defend Young Link so much and don't even play him competitively anymore. It's annoying.
 

t3h Icy

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Nice, we actually got something done.

Okay, regardless of everything else we plan to do, most people ultimately prefer numbers over advantage stuff, yes, or vice versa?
 

Cosmo!

nerf zelda's dsmash
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Okay, regardless of everything else we plan to do, most people ultimately prefer numbers over advantage stuff, yes, or vice versa?
IDK about anybody else but when I look at the chart my immediate desire is to figure out what +1 is compared the numbered ones. The only way to do that is by comparing the color of the squares :laugh: (going by that, +1 is 65:35 or or something)
 

t3h Icy

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Numbers:

-More precise
-Works better mathematically
-Not vague and easily understandable

Advantages:
-More accurate
-Requires less time and effort
 

KAOSTAR

the Ascended One
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That Young Link vs Mewtwo being +1 in YL's favor..still bothers me.
Should at least be +2 in YL's favor at the very least..
Why?
Mewtwo doesn't really have any options for when YL starts camping. Once that tent is up and the campfire is burning, his options are gone. He only really has a chance on smaller levels
you have proven too many times you don't know what you are talking about.

yl does have a slight advantage no doubt.

but being grounded allows m2 handle the spam. its just hard at times to approach. not an impassible wall but a solid defense. you need some serious traps to lock him down.

the difference is made up when m2 does get inside. he taps. tech chase combo and edge guarding on lock.

also idk but m2 seems mad good at grabbing **** out the air. like bombs. and confusion lol only works on bombs @ 1.5 damage no doubt.

+ 1. don't bring it up again unless you have an actual argument that doesn't start with "I don't understand/idk/mewtwo can't"

^ its quite obvious why you are wrong about every mewtwo MU. start worrying about what yl can do and we can reach some common ground.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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kaostar, sorry but i've never seen a m2 that "taps" when he gets inside someone.

kao said:
the difference is made up when m2 does get inside. he taps. tech chase combo and edge guarding on lock.
if you replaced m2 with sheik or falcon or fox, i could see that being true.
 

KAOSTAR

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lol a bit of a strong word. but within his capabilities tho, yl will take some decent damage if m2 gets a grab.

m2 is like a slow play character. he chips at the opponent and then bursts for ko's.
 

Laijin

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^ You defend Young Link so much and don't even play him competitively anymore. It's annoying.
When was the last time we played? Oh yea thats right. Never.
We have never played a single match together. In fact, I don't even think you have seen me at a tournament ever. So how do you know I don't use Young Link competitively anymore?
You don't.
So don't assume things.

you have proven too many times you don't know what you are talking about.

yl does have a slight advantage no doubt.

but being grounded allows m2 handle the spam. its just hard at times to approach. not an impassible wall but a solid defense. you need some serious traps to lock him down.

the difference is made up when m2 does get inside. he taps. tech chase combo and edge guarding on lock.

also idk but m2 seems mad good at grabbing **** out the air. like bombs. and confusion lol only works on bombs @ 1.5 damage no doubt.

+ 1. don't bring it up again unless you have an actual argument that doesn't start with "I don't understand/idk/mewtwo can't"

^ its quite obvious why you are wrong about every mewtwo MU. start worrying about what yl can do and we can reach some common ground.
Okay Kaostar. Lets have a serious discussion about this.
It seriously is not a slight advantage, but a significant advantage.

1.
but being grounded allows m2 handle the spam. its just hard at times to approach. not an impassible wall but a solid defense. you need some serious traps to lock him down.
Okay seriously. How does being grounded help m2 handle the spam? Your still gonna have projectiles flying at you constantly. About the only option you have is to either teleport or try and catch the bombs. Catching the bombs is a bad idea cause that limits your options even further(having it in your hand prevents you from being able to attack). Teleporting? I'm pretty sure Young Link can simply just literally run away, thus leaving you in the same situation as before.


the difference is made up when m2 does get inside. he taps. tech chase combo and edge guarding on lock.
When Mewtwo gets inside...oh wait, when does he get a chance to get inside? I'm being completely serious when I say this. It should very EXTREMELY difficult for mewtwo to get inside YL long enough to actually do something worth while. Unless the YL is approaching because hes rushing the kill or he got tired of camping, M2 should definitely not have an easy time getitng inside YL. And when he actually is inside, YL has enough options to either knock him(n-air out of shield, etc etc) away or stun him long enough to get away from him(1 frame bomb drop -> running away, etc etc).

also idk but m2 seems mad good at grabbing **** out the air. like bombs. and confusion lol only works on bombs @ 1.5 damage no doubt.
I covered why grabbing bombs is a bad idea. Confusion may seem like a good idea, but last time I checked its really easy to punish and has a ton of lag. And how you gonna possibly use it as a viable option when you constantly have a boomerang flying in right after the bomb? You'll just get hit in the face all the time.
Edit: Alright. Assuming you're smart enough to not get hit by a rang everytime, its still a bad option for many reasons lol. Why not try it out when we have our mm and you'll see for yourself :p

+ 1. don't bring it up again unless you have an actual argument that doesn't start with "I don't understand/idk/mewtwo can't"

^ its quite obvious why you are wrong about every mewtwo MU. start worrying about what yl can do and we can reach some common ground.
Seriously. Lets do this. I know for fact that the match up is in Young Link's favor way more than +1. I have enough experience vs good M2 players to know this as fact. Where is your experience vs good Young Link players?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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what would mewtwo do if he got a grab? dthrow at pretty much any percent until he can kill from a throw. If YL just DIs away and techs away, the worst thats going to happen is YL gets to the ledge with 20% more damage, invincibility and gains stage control all over again. But YL doesn't even have to do that since theres really nothing mewtwo can do to trap YL once YL inevitably escapes the tech chase.
 

Laijin

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what would mewtwo do if he got a grab? dthrow at pretty much any percent until he can kill from a throw. If YL just DIs away and techs away, the worst thats going to happen is YL gets to the ledge with 20% more damage, invincibility and gains stage control all over again. But YL doesn't even have to do that since theres really nothing mewtwo can do to trap YL once YL inevitably escapes the tech chase.
and once he escapes, he just simply has to set up his tent again, roast some marshmallows and watch as Mewtwo literally struggles to do anything he can think of to try and get closer. ;O
 

Fortress | Sveet

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yeah, im actually surprised YL is so low on the tier lists. a lot of people forget he used to be argued as a mid tier character for a reason.
 

t3h Icy

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Anywho, do you guys want me to setup match-up threads on each character board (then get banned for spamming) and see if that works, or would that just be annoying?
 

Fortress | Sveet

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I think it would be useful to get information from lots of players who know a lot about the character but don't check the melee discussion (like 99% of good players)
 

KAOSTAR

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LMAO COSMO-no mewtwo haha? (idk the numbers for it either)

@laijin-I honestly don't know if I can take you seriously.

I didn't even read your post all the way because you are responding to me as if I was attempting to do a MU analysis. I made general statements and you responded with the same thinking you were doing a good job or something.

if you want to do this write an analysis on the MU don't half *** a few generalizations.

check the thread for examples of MU discussion.

also, if you have mewtwo exp then why don't you know anything about m2. I just checked your posts containing the word mewtwo from this thread and I actually laughed a few times.

@sveet-are you saying mewtwo can't tech chase now? he can reach tech away. he can chase on reaction decently. fyi up throw vs yl is not the way to go. waiting for that tech to the edge at mid percents!
 
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