Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Deleted member]

stupid MU facts ****.

@umbreon-lmao @ important MU's. zelda isn't important.

lmao. I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a slam or not, but either way it was funny.

 

[Merkuri]

But Zelda is still a pretty terrible character. Have you seen her match ups lately? They are pretty bad lol

Well Cosmo says she beats Samus and ICs . That ain't too bad imo.

 

[Laijin]

Well Cosmo says she beats Samus and ICs . That ain't too bad imo.

I'm not entirely sure if she beats ICs......
However I'm not going to argue it. lol.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

cosmo has been consistently beating trail in tournament for a few months now (at least, cosmo knocked trail out at both POE3 and SCSYN3, not sure if they played at SMYM11)

 

[t3h Icy]

So it's looking like discussion is starting on most of the boards. At the end of the weekend, I'll see if there are any match-ups with a good consensus/reasoning and I'll add it to the chart.

 

[JPOBS]

what will u do when the different character boards disagree on their matchups with each other?

ex. Peach boards say peach vs fox is 55:45 fox boards say its 70:30

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

cosmo has been consistently beating trail in tournament for a few months now (at least, cosmo knocked trail out at both POE3 and SCSYN3, not sure if they played at SMYM11)

Yeah...but Cosmo has been beating like everyone in the MW regardless of matchup...

Sometimes I don't know how seriously to take MW results

 

[Merkuri]

what will u do when the different character boards disagree on their matchups with each other?

ex. Peach boards say peach vs fox is 55:45 fox boards say its 70:30

The Brawl chart has two different values representing each baords' thoughts on the match up. I'm thinking it may be cool to use the two match up ratios are parameters for where the true match up ratio lies.

 

[t3h Icy]

In case you guys missed, I am doing it where both boards' opinions on the same characters are represented:

Also, the left side's character represents the character board, while the top represents the opponent. In other words, Fox on the horizontal and Falco on the vertical is the Fox board's opinion on Falco, whereas Falco on the horizontal and Fox on the vertical is the Falco board's opinion on Fox. Chances are, there are mixed opinions about the same characters.

Perhaps if this turns out successfully, we can merge them into one solid value, but for now, both will be shown.

 

[otg]

Man, upon reviewing the miscellaneous character boards opinions on matchups for this matchup chart, people SERIOUSLY overrate their characters matchups vs. top tiers. It's insane, people don't know how to gauge these things at all. Y. Link vs. Sheik 40:60? Gtfo.

This really just shows the inherent flaw of a open Match-up chart. Allowing any and all input is just going to cause a wave of misguided opinions and skew the chart. As much as I used to disagree with it at the time, the last Matchup Chart run by KK and Unknown and people had it right and was going in the right direction.

That said, I still have faith in this chart, tho in its current state and the route it is going I doubt it will really ever succeed in being truly accurate.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah...but Cosmo has been beating like everyone in the MW regardless of matchup...

Sometimes I don't know how seriously to take MW results

Okay, and who are you again?

In case you hadn't noticed, the Midwest has borne players such as Drephen, Darkrain, Kels, and Vidjogamer.

 

[Deleted member]

MW has drephen dope vidjogamer eddie darkrain tink and joe bushman for its really key players.

and yeah, zelda beats ICs pretty solidly. Not much to talk about really.

 

[SSBM_Sora]

Well...Cosmo does pwn with Zelda..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nah zelda pwns cosmo just abuses a good character

 

[KirbyKaze]

MW has drephen dope vidjogamer eddie darkrain tink and joe bushman for its really key players.

Yeah like 3 years ago.

Now it's like

Kels Tink Cosmo

M2K if he decides to go or affiliate himself with Midwest

Drephen if he bothers to show up

 

[Druggedfox]

It'd be kewl if there was a huge return of the midwest... only for them to get *****

Yup, just went there.

 

[t3h Icy]

Man, upon reviewing the miscellaneous character boards opinions on matchups for this matchup chart, people SERIOUSLY overrate their characters matchups vs. top tiers. It's insane, people don't know how to gauge these things at all. Y. Link vs. Sheik 40:60? Gtfo.

This really just shows the inherent flaw of a open Match-up chart. Allowing any and all input is just going to cause a wave of misguided opinions and skew the chart. As much as I used to disagree with it at the time, the last Matchup Chart run by KK and Unknown and people had it right and was going in the right direction.

That said, I still have faith in this chart, tho in its current state and the route it is going I doubt it will really ever succeed in being truly accurate.

The Young Link players themselves said the match-ups are way too good, lol. Laijin is just using his post to put the numbers somewhere, but nothing is changing until that thread gets discussion. Chill out. =)

 

[otg]

I was just using Y. Link as an example, I saw the same thing in the Yoshi boards and a few others. Frankly people are just uneducated and biased as hell. Realistically this chart should only be made by people who actually know wtf they are talking about, but then again seeing who gets let into the MBR nowadays, I dont even know if I would trust that either.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Okay, and who are you again?

Well thats rude.

Well I don't know who you are either so I suppose I'll introduce myself. I'm the Crimson mother****ing Blur. Now, who the **** are you?

In case you hadn't noticed, the Midwest has borne players such as Drephen, Darkrain, Kels, and Vidjogamer.

I love the MW. Great players, awesome history. They made FC ffs. I'm not hating on them.

All I'm saying is that when I see a Zelda win a tournament I freak out a bit. It makes me wonder whats going on in the midwest and how much their metagame is in line with the rest of the nation. I think everyone does that every time Cosmo wins frankly...to quote the great G-regulate:

zelda? are you shitting my assballs?

 

[Mind Trick]

I was just using Y. Link as an example, I saw the same thing in the Yoshi boards and a few others. Frankly people are just uneducated and biased as hell. Realistically this chart should only be made by people who actually know wtf they are talking about, but then again seeing who gets let into the MBR nowadays, I dont even know if I would trust that either.

So I guess this is also (partly) aimed at me lol
How would you know if it's wrong if you yourself don't know much about Yoshi? (nothing personal, the majority of the community doesn't know about the character that can be played in the most unique way.)
On my list I count 14 disadvantageous, 5 even and 6 advantageous matchups, I dont see how that is overrating tbh, except if you compare it to the current (wrong) placing on the tier list.

 

[otg]

How would you know if it's wrong if you yourself don't know much about Yoshi? (nothing personal, the majority of the community doesn't know about the character that can be played in the most unique way.)

This is true and completely fair. I actually wasn't aiming my comment at you at all, I merely took a glance at the Yoshi boards and saw some numbers that shocked me. Admittedly I know nothing about Yoshi and am in no position to gauge his matchups, but my point still stands that this chart is going to be filled with tons of misinformation from randoms that only play their mediocre friends (I'm not insinuating this is you Mind Trick, you played with my friend Tuna in the spring while he was studying abroad and he spoke quite highly of you).

I once again think we should consider making a matchup chart with only the relevant characters and remove the rest.

 

[Merkuri]

I once again think we should consider making a matchup chart with only the relevant characters and remove the rest.

I have never heard of anything more discriminatory.

 

[otg]

I have never heard of anything more discriminatory.

No one uses low tiers enough to accurately assess their matchups and they are almost never seen in tournament minus rare cases like Taj, Axe, Cosmo and whatever other trendy name is ****** whatever regional/national due to matchup inexperience.

 

[Merkuri]

No one uses low tiers enough to accurately assess their matchups and they are almost never seen in tournament minus rare cases like Taj, Axe, Cosmo and whatever other trendy name is ****** whatever regional/national due to matchup inexperience.

At some point you have to stop blaming the match-up ad start crediting the character that is being used. Axe, Cosmo and Taj do excellent in their region despite their opponents becoming and more familiar with their characters. At some point you have to stop blaming inexperience and accept that some lower tier mains matchups aren't nearly as bad as a lot of people think.

 

[Teczer0]

The problem with match up percentages is that they are basically pretty much completely arbitrary.

Things like 40:60, 45:55 are hard to gauge when some people view 40:60 not being so bad.

I think if you're going to have a match-up chart, you should have 5 broad categories.

Major Disadvantage
Slight Disadvantage
Even (Or really close you get the idea)
Slight Advantage
Major Advantage

 

[KirbyKaze]

We don't have enough data to get accurate matchup depictions for ****ty characters, particularly in ****ty character vs other ****ty character. So they'd just be theory matchups and since every gets into a hissyfit when we start talking about stuff like that, I'd rather just leave them out.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm pretty sure we can agree that any ****ty character vs any non-****ty character is 100-0 in favor of the non-****ty character. So I see no reason why we should overlook those matchups.

 

[KirbyKaze]

^ You might want to talk to the Young Links about that one. They disagree. Sheik - Young Link is 60 - 40

 

[ChivalRuse]

If that's true, we may have no choice but to put Young Link above Falcon on the tier list. :freak:

 

[Druggedfox]

Except that fox vs YL actually is like 100-0, and all the YL players will still tell you that xDDDD

P.S. Young Link counters sheik. It's 60-40 YL favor, right?

Apparently someone doesn't approve *looks at below post*

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wonder if DruggedFox thinks he's being clever o_o

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

Falco 50:50 Fox, Falco 50:50 Jigglypuff, Falcon 60:40 Doc, Fox 50:50 Falco, Fox 55:45 Sheik, Fox 50:50 Marth, Fox 60:40 Peach, Marth 50:50 Fox, Samus 40:60 Ganondorf, Samus 40:60 Sheik, Yoshi 10:90 Sheik, Zelda 40:60 Jigglypuff, Zelda 60:40 ICs

I also cleared off the stuff from before, but I still have all the data around if needed/wanted.

Although that discussion is divided up much more, nothing is permanent, and re-discussions with the thread(s) can have stuff on the chart changed.

I'll also re-order the ranks in the next update, but they'll be way out of place (obviously), so don't flame me to death.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm a hater

 

[Strong Badam]

I love the MW. Great players, awesome history. They made FC ffs. I'm not hating on them.

All I'm saying is that when I see a Zelda win a tournament I freak out a bit. It makes me wonder whats going on in the midwest and how much their metagame is in line with the rest of the nation. I think everyone does that every time Cosmo wins frankly...

Yeah, it's like calling EC terrible because of Bum's success, or WC/AZ terrible because of Taj/Axe. You're trying to deduce that because of a Zelda player's success, the region in which the success is gained isn't keeping up with the metagame. Not only does this logic present an obvious fallacy (see: my other examples), but you assume that there's actually a widespread metagame in the Zelda match-up that the Midwest can be behind in.

The problem with match up percentages is that they are basically pretty much completely arbitrary.

LOL'd.

Things like 40:60, 45:55 are hard to gauge when some people view 40:60 not being so bad.

I think if you're going to have a match-up chart, you should have 5 broad categories.

Major Disadvantage
Slight Disadvantage
Even (Or really close you get the idea)
Slight Advantage
Major Advantage

How does one rank characters with this, then? You'd still be assigning values to those broad categories, and this has been tried before and people complained about it.

 

[Teczer0]

Its not that I don't think match ups can't be assigned but I mean....

Your 40:60 might be different from my 40:60 is all I'm saying.

Imo its easier to debate saying its like slight advantage, it doesn't matter our numerical values for percentages at that point.

Like I've seen some people say its 40:60 then another say its 45:55 and they mean the same thing. I just think broader ways to classify it is better.

Also people are gonna complain no matter how you do rank a match up so...

 

[KAOSTAR]

Its much easier to debate qualitatives. IMo the ones we have had so far are pretty accurate. but as soon as those numbers came into play things went bad.

Most MUs are not in the super **** range. Its dumb to have things that we agreed upon as a slight advantage and the Mu numerically is like 70-30. Its just not uniform between characters. Having an arbitrary value like this only works if its consistent within itself. you cant even compare numbers in between character because we cannot guarantee everyone is on the same page.

I think we should assign some sort of numerical range to the qualitative expressions.

something like slight advantage ranges from 64-36 to 55-45, advantage would be like 65-35 through 70-30. It gives a margin for error and is much easier to derive.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

LOL, it seems as if all the characters are overrated. This goes along with moving every character on the tier list up 1 spot.

The problem with alot of people is that they dont actually understand how deep a character or this game gets. Personal experiences kinda suck as data...unless you have ALOT or they are all of the utmost quality.

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

Falcon 60:40 Ganon, Falcon 60:40 Samus, Doc 35:65 Marth, Doc 35:65 Sheik, Kirby 50:50 Bowser, Kirby 30:70 DK, Kirby 35:65 Doc, Kirby 30:70 Falco, Kirby 45:55 Falcon, Kirby 0:100 Fox, Kirby 35:65 Ganon, Kirby 40:60 ICs, Kirby 35:65 Jigglypuff, Kirby 45:55 Link, Kirby 25:75 Luigi, Kirby 30:70 Mario, Kirby 35:65 Marth, Kirby 35:65 Mewtwo, Kirby 30:70 Mr. G&W, Kirby 45:55 Ness, Kirby 40:60 Peach, Kirby 65:35 Pichu, Kirby 40:60 Pikachu, Kirby 55:45 Roy, Kirby 40:60 Samus, Kirby 35:65 Sheik, Kirby 50:50 Yoshi, Kirby 35:65 Young Link, Kirby 45:55 Zelda, Luigi 40:60 Fox, Luigi 30:70 Sheik, Roy 10:90 ICs, Roy 20:80 Sheik

=D

 

[JPOBS]

kirby 30:70 falco? 40:60 samus? 35:65 sheik?

wtf are the kirby boards smokin.

 

[otg]

kirby 30:70 falco? 40:60 samus? 35:65 sheik?

wtf are the kirby boards smokin.

Seriously. My prophecy about how terrible this chart will end up is slowly happening.

If ****ing Kirby vs. Sheik is 35:65, and Y. Link vs. Sheik is 40:60, then Doc vs. Sheik must be like 60:40 Doc's favor or something. This is beyond ******** and will only get worse.