Pi
Smash Hero
you probably just enlightened a few people
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- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
- Status
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Nah everyone knows that lol.
Pi
Smash Hero
Let me live in my world.
Hazygoose
Smash Lord
there's a brawl podcast called directional influence ran by rapture and some other peeps
they totally tried to say knihT as a coherent word.
it was pretty funny to hear.
they totally tried to say knihT as a coherent word.
it was pretty funny to hear.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
I thought it was pronounced neat lol. but that was like a year.5 ago.
idea
Smash Master
not that i've given this too much thought...but i always figured it was pronounced the same as "knight". i mean, that g is silent anyway.
once in like grade 2, me and a bunch of other kids were doing a verbal spelling test in class, and we had to spell the word "night". i got in trouble for telling the kid next to me that it wasn't "the one with a k!". i was only trying to help =P
once in like grade 2, me and a bunch of other kids were doing a verbal spelling test in class, and we had to spell the word "night". i got in trouble for telling the kid next to me that it wasn't "the one with a k!". i was only trying to help =P
Pi
Smash Hero
i didn't have pronunciation in mind when i thought of the name
but to me it's 'nit'
silent K & H
but i usually tell people to call me think
or jason
but to me it's 'nit'
silent K & H
but i usually tell people to call me think
or jason
VGmasta
Smash Lord
I've been calling you the 'Knight' with the ability to think backwards.
who do you think he loses to?
Winston
Smash Master
Possibly Falco, by a small small margin.
unknown522
Some guy
yes, falco.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Then you get:
-platform camped
-nair --> double shine gimped
-upsmash/uair combo'd for as much damage than your shine combos do
-chainthrow
...
Then you wonder who has the advantage?
I honestly still don't have an opinion on it, too even for me to really think much of it.
The only debatable bad matchups for fox are really falco and marth. Marth is mostly on FD because of guaranteed CG.
Edit: Sorry, the damage output is roughly the same, its just significantly easier for fox. I misspoke.
-platform camped
-nair --> double shine gimped
-upsmash/uair combo'd for as much damage than your shine combos do
-chainthrow
...
Then you wonder who has the advantage?
I honestly still don't have an opinion on it, too even for me to really think much of it.
The only debatable bad matchups for fox are really falco and marth. Marth is mostly on FD because of guaranteed CG.
Edit: Sorry, the damage output is roughly the same, its just significantly easier for fox. I misspoke.
Winston
Smash Master
I dunno about this one...
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
I think it's more like ''no''.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
its not even enough to say its a bad MU imo. I really find it hard to say fox is at a disadvantage.
spacies vary so much from player to player to stage to state lol.
its mad gay for fox and falco lol.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
...Fox needs like... half the effort for equal combo damage on juggling combos... Upsmash three times is like... equal to a sexy falco shine combo. Upsmash --> 2 uairs is pretty much the same thing... This excludes the fact that fox tech chasing falco is a joke because it's so easy. I'm really confused as to how fox's juggling combos (repeated uairs ending, grab --> upsmash etc) really do anything that different from a shine combo from falco.
xbombr
Smash Ace
Derailed topic time:
Mewtwo vs. Zelda
Except this time I think Zelda wins, go go go.
Mewtwo vs. Zelda
Except this time I think Zelda wins, go go go.
Winston
Smash Master
I actually think it's pretty even (the damage output of Fox and Falco combos on each other).
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
so yea, I don't like your explanation lol
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
you platform camp so you avoid dair priority and lasers.
its unrealistic to expect any sort of savior di.
you can sdi out of falco combos as well. plus you can place the uair so it can't be sdi out of.
you can get low percent up throws under any center platform.
you suck at trolling.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
You just got destroyed by Kaostar; just saying.
Nair double shine DI'd out of? Get that **** outta here. First, I don't think you can DI out of it at the right %, second, even if you could... honestly, I doubt the opposing falco is thinking "oh, DI out of the nair double shine". It's not like a fox upthrow uair that you know is coming, its something fox pulls out of his *** and gets a free stock at like 20%.
Platform camping essentially negates falco's combo game, is the point. Sure he has lasers, but pretty much bair+platform camping>falco comboing. It doesn't, by itself, win fox the match. Instead it makes the matchup one where falco's combos become near non existent. The only way falco gets a combo is if he makes a perfect read on what fox is about to do, and even then the combo is limited on platforms.
Yes, chainthrow on FD. Why do I point that out? Cuz its falco's best comboing stage. On the one stage falco has true 0-death combos on fox, one fox grab at ANY % can easily lead to death.
SDI the uair? No one can do that consistently as of yet. In addition, even if they could, its not that hard to get second hit only. Alternatively, slightly delay the uair? You realize SDI is about precise timing, right? Meaning if you delay your uair by just enough to make them do the "smash" part of the smash DI too early, you've messed up their SDI? Additionally, fox has stupid **** like upsmash -->upsmash *waits for tech, or not tech* --> random aerial if on platform, another upsmash if on ground. Wooo 3 easy moves equal to a flashy falco combo.
so yeah, I don't like your explanation lol
Nair double shine DI'd out of? Get that **** outta here. First, I don't think you can DI out of it at the right %, second, even if you could... honestly, I doubt the opposing falco is thinking "oh, DI out of the nair double shine". It's not like a fox upthrow uair that you know is coming, its something fox pulls out of his *** and gets a free stock at like 20%.
Platform camping essentially negates falco's combo game, is the point. Sure he has lasers, but pretty much bair+platform camping>falco comboing. It doesn't, by itself, win fox the match. Instead it makes the matchup one where falco's combos become near non existent. The only way falco gets a combo is if he makes a perfect read on what fox is about to do, and even then the combo is limited on platforms.
Yes, chainthrow on FD. Why do I point that out? Cuz its falco's best comboing stage. On the one stage falco has true 0-death combos on fox, one fox grab at ANY % can easily lead to death.
SDI the uair? No one can do that consistently as of yet. In addition, even if they could, its not that hard to get second hit only. Alternatively, slightly delay the uair? You realize SDI is about precise timing, right? Meaning if you delay your uair by just enough to make them do the "smash" part of the smash DI too early, you've messed up their SDI? Additionally, fox has stupid **** like upsmash -->upsmash *waits for tech, or not tech* --> random aerial if on platform, another upsmash if on ground. Wooo 3 easy moves equal to a flashy falco combo.
so yeah, I don't like your explanation lol
Fortress | Sveet
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I think people need to realize there is a difference between a match-up being playable/winnable and even.
Marth has an advantage on peach. In virtually every situation he has a choice that will straight up BEAT whatever the peach decides to do. The problem is choice.
Consider this situation. You are given 5 choices, each with statistically equal chances of success verses the opponent's options (options A thru E). The opponent is given 3 options, one beats 3 options of yours (option X), and the other 2 options beat your remaining two options (options Y and Z).
Your option A beats his option X. his option Y beats your option A. Your options B and C beat his option Y. His option Z beats your option B. Your options D and E beats his option Z. His option X beats your options C, D, and E.
If your opponent always chooses option X and you choose yours equally, he will win 60% of the time. Next time you play wouldn't you compensate by choosing A more often than the others?
Im really bad with statistics so i'm not going to go much farther down the math route, but just think about what you would do in each player's place. As the iterations move forward and each player compensates for the other's choices, the playing field is even.
Does that mean that the matchup is even or does it mean that it is playable by both players?
Marth has an advantage on peach. In virtually every situation he has a choice that will straight up BEAT whatever the peach decides to do. The problem is choice.
Consider this situation. You are given 5 choices, each with statistically equal chances of success verses the opponent's options (options A thru E). The opponent is given 3 options, one beats 3 options of yours (option X), and the other 2 options beat your remaining two options (options Y and Z).
Your option A beats his option X. his option Y beats your option A. Your options B and C beat his option Y. His option Z beats your option B. Your options D and E beats his option Z. His option X beats your options C, D, and E.
If your opponent always chooses option X and you choose yours equally, he will win 60% of the time. Next time you play wouldn't you compensate by choosing A more often than the others?
Im really bad with statistics so i'm not going to go much farther down the math route, but just think about what you would do in each player's place. As the iterations move forward and each player compensates for the other's choices, the playing field is even.
Does that mean that the matchup is even or does it mean that it is playable by both players?
Fortress | Sveet
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With my last post in mind, i say falco has an advantage on fox even though at the top level either player can win.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
DI the ****ing up throw so you don't get double shined off the stage, how was that hard to understand?
Winston
Smash Master
Sveet I don't really understand what you're trying to get at. First you say that having a mixup game makes the situation even (which isn't really true in general; it depends on the game), then you say "with that post in mind, falco beats fox".
Fortress | Sveet
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Let me logic it to you this way:
If there is one choice (1 move or a string of any moves) that has no weakness (meaning, no opposing choice can beat it) then the match-up is unwinnable. (100% chance of winning if they choice that option 100% of the time)
But if there is 1 option that wins and 99 options that lose, statistically it would seem just as bad (99% win rate by choosing that option 100% of the time). Is that what would actually happen if real humans were given the choices? Would you choose the other 99 options as often as you choose the 1? Think about it.
If there is one choice (1 move or a string of any moves) that has no weakness (meaning, no opposing choice can beat it) then the match-up is unwinnable. (100% chance of winning if they choice that option 100% of the time)
But if there is 1 option that wins and 99 options that lose, statistically it would seem just as bad (99% win rate by choosing that option 100% of the time). Is that what would actually happen if real humans were given the choices? Would you choose the other 99 options as often as you choose the 1? Think about it.
Winston
Smash Master
What I was asking about was that your post seemed contradictory. You wrote that big post to explain that mixups lead to an even playing field, and ended it with "I think Falco beats Fox".
And yes, your second example leads to a 50/50 outcome because the way you set it up, those 99 choices are all identical, so there are really 2 choices.
edit: I read it again and I guess if I just ignore the sentence "As the iterations move forward and each player compensates for the other's choices, the playing field is even" then it all makes sense.
And yes, your second example leads to a 50/50 outcome because the way you set it up, those 99 choices are all identical, so there are really 2 choices.
edit: I read it again and I guess if I just ignore the sentence "As the iterations move forward and each player compensates for the other's choices, the playing field is even" then it all makes sense.
Fortress | Sveet
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i put my opinion in a separate post to emphasize the fact that it was my opinion on the matchup
Winston
Smash Master
@ Druggedfox
On FD, I think Fox combos slightly better with really good execution. Most players though, even good ones, will mess up the execution on a techchase/chaingrab sometimes. (before we get into the same argument we had last time, I understand that it's very doable, but I just want to point out that it's rare to see FD combos perfectly executed by Fox players)
When there are platforms Fox usually doesn't have a guaranteed followup when Falco gets knocked on a platform. It's kind of a 50/50 mixup, though the reward of guessing right is often high. Falco does pretty well on platforms because of his dair being able to force techs and the platform limiting the tech roll options.
Overall I think the combo game pretty even.
On FD, I think Fox combos slightly better with really good execution. Most players though, even good ones, will mess up the execution on a techchase/chaingrab sometimes. (before we get into the same argument we had last time, I understand that it's very doable, but I just want to point out that it's rare to see FD combos perfectly executed by Fox players)
When there are platforms Fox usually doesn't have a guaranteed followup when Falco gets knocked on a platform. It's kind of a 50/50 mixup, though the reward of guessing right is often high. Falco does pretty well on platforms because of his dair being able to force techs and the platform limiting the tech roll options.
Overall I think the combo game pretty even.
Fortress | Sveet
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I really feel its lasers that tip the advantage into falco's favor. It is a powerful tool which can force fox onto the platforms or into his shield.
Even if lasers are powershielded and frame perfectly wavedashed out of, it forces and action out of the opponent with literally no risk. You could be like zhu and expect a powershield and already have options ready (like powershielding it back or just jumping over it and lasering again). In real games, nobody powershields 100% of the time and nobody is frame perfect out of it 100% of the time. Any time you're not at 100%, falco has the advantage.
If fox goes the platform route, the options are fairly equal as neither character has incentive to leave their zone. But compare how well falco can approach a fox platform camping (among the best, i'd say, as he has the highest jump; can approach the position of his choosing with shine and then have immediate movement or use a moving aerial with as much or more priority than any attack fox has; or laser from the opposite platform) to how well fox can approach a falco below the opposite platform (remember that falco can use a lagless disjointed attack to fight instead of even risking his body). Unless i'm mistaken, falco has a better approaching situation in worst case situations/top level.
Taking that into account I find the best way for a fox to approach is through forcing falco to react to him (taking risks and waiting for the falco to use something other than laser) which results in the fox relying more on his out of shield game in order to get a hit. After that he would still have to rely on some variance of mixups: either comboing from a shine (tech chase), aerial (DI + tech chase), usmash (DI) or grab (raaaaape). Best case scenario, your hit gets falco off stage. Though, in the absolute campiest match-ups between fox and falco, fox on top of falco's platform forces a dilema such that falco must either attack (risky) or attempt to run to the other side (probably even more risky). If the match-up came down to just that, i think fox could have the advantage, but i've never had to play the match-up on that level.
tl;dr i've changed my stance to falco's favor at the non-retardedly-boring-metagame-level and even/slight fox favor at the campiest-brawl-wishes-it-was-this-cool-when-its-at-its-gayest level
edit- i want to note that i think if my english professor read this post she would probably gut me
Even if lasers are powershielded and frame perfectly wavedashed out of, it forces and action out of the opponent with literally no risk. You could be like zhu and expect a powershield and already have options ready (like powershielding it back or just jumping over it and lasering again). In real games, nobody powershields 100% of the time and nobody is frame perfect out of it 100% of the time. Any time you're not at 100%, falco has the advantage.
If fox goes the platform route, the options are fairly equal as neither character has incentive to leave their zone. But compare how well falco can approach a fox platform camping (among the best, i'd say, as he has the highest jump; can approach the position of his choosing with shine and then have immediate movement or use a moving aerial with as much or more priority than any attack fox has; or laser from the opposite platform) to how well fox can approach a falco below the opposite platform (remember that falco can use a lagless disjointed attack to fight instead of even risking his body). Unless i'm mistaken, falco has a better approaching situation in worst case situations/top level.
Taking that into account I find the best way for a fox to approach is through forcing falco to react to him (taking risks and waiting for the falco to use something other than laser) which results in the fox relying more on his out of shield game in order to get a hit. After that he would still have to rely on some variance of mixups: either comboing from a shine (tech chase), aerial (DI + tech chase), usmash (DI) or grab (raaaaape). Best case scenario, your hit gets falco off stage. Though, in the absolute campiest match-ups between fox and falco, fox on top of falco's platform forces a dilema such that falco must either attack (risky) or attempt to run to the other side (probably even more risky). If the match-up came down to just that, i think fox could have the advantage, but i've never had to play the match-up on that level.
tl;dr i've changed my stance to falco's favor at the non-retardedly-boring-metagame-level and even/slight fox favor at the campiest-brawl-wishes-it-was-this-cool-when-its-at-its-gayest level
edit- i want to note that i think if my english professor read this post she would probably gut me
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Wow... are you like, pro at misreading posts?
I never said upthrow double shine. How was that hard to understand? Posts like that make it hard for me to believe there's any intelligence in such a post.
I said NAIR double shine. Yes, that's right. NAIR. Unless the letters n-a-i-r rearrange themselves into an upwards direction followed by some form of grappling the opponent, im not sure where the **** you get that from.
If that wasn't directed at me, then entirely disregard that entire angry post I just made, and I apologize. Seeing as I was the only one who said "double shine", I find that rather hard to believe.
@tehicy,
Believe it or not, I've been a pokemon master for a while and didn't even know it
When I found out I was kinda like "yeah, take that ash!" and decided to put it on =D@GustavWind, I definitely agree. I don't think fox has a better combo game, I think they're more or less even. That said, that's why I'm not sure what my opinion on the matchup is. Most people who think falco wins are so obsessed with his amazing shine combos that they forget the simplicity of fox's combos.
Fortress | Sveet
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why are you so focused on punishment? Assume that fox and falco both kill off of 1 hit, who do you think wins?
Skler
Smash Master
Whoever gets the hits easier.
I win!
The topic of this thread is now Mewtwo vs Zelda. Go.
I win!
The topic of this thread is now Mewtwo vs Zelda. Go.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Skler, who do you think wins the mewtwo zelda matchup? It's definitely the most important in the game... I don't think this thread can continue without your link's expertise on the matchup =PPP
Geist
Smash Master
Not that matchup again...
New topic, Samus > Falco.
Discuss.
New topic, Samus > Falco.
Discuss.
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
Falco can kill of one hit; I have never seen Fox do that. I can assure you that you couldn't site me a video of Fox doing that.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
lots of foxes can do this on FD.
- Status