Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
An IC who is having a lot of trouble with raptor boost is an IC who is approaching too much.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
- Status
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
It's nowhere near that bad, imo.
Fly_Amanita
Master of Caribou
More on ICs vs. Falcon-
The match-up feels even-ish to me. It's hard for either character to land a solid hit on the other one, but each character can get a ton of momentum off of a single hit. Falcon doesn't have great options for approaching an IC who likes to light-shield often and wavedash backwards a lot; his standard approach options for approaching a defensive IC carry large risks. Knee is the safest option, but it can still often be punished or evaded. On the other hand, it's even harder for ICs to approach Falcon than the other way around. This only becomes a big issue if Falcon manages to gain a significant lead and there is a risk of the time running out, though.
The match-up feels even-ish to me. It's hard for either character to land a solid hit on the other one, but each character can get a ton of momentum off of a single hit. Falcon doesn't have great options for approaching an IC who likes to light-shield often and wavedash backwards a lot; his standard approach options for approaching a defensive IC carry large risks. Knee is the safest option, but it can still often be punished or evaded. On the other hand, it's even harder for ICs to approach Falcon than the other way around. This only becomes a big issue if Falcon manages to gain a significant lead and there is a risk of the time running out, though.
*P*L*U*R*
Smash Hero
I generally nair oos if Falcon raptor boosts my sheild in front. Shffld Nair can lead into a jab/ftilt. Jab leads into grab usually and Ftilt can lead to tech chases because it tends to knock him down.
I bair OOS if falcon raptor Boosts the back though. Bair flows WONDERFULLY into a dashattack at low percents, which means a grab.
I generally don't try to stuff raptor boost because my reaction time sucks but I DO recall just simply GRABBING a falcon out it before, no sheild neccesary. It was funny.
I always had mixed feelings about this matchup in relation to the Ganon matchup. They're about even IMO in terms of how hard they are. Ganon has a much more telegraphed tempo than Falcon has, however, it's much harder to prevent him from doing things. Falcon has a much harder to read tempo but I feel like its easier to crush him if you manage to get a read. The problem is that IC still has to dedicate themselves to something in order to stop what they're doing. Meanwhile, ganon is relatively safe doing what he does and falcon, while not as safe has an easier time punished tiny openings than Ganon. They both kill nana pretty easy too.
I wanna say it's like 60/40 Falcon&Ganon/ICs. It's doable, just really tough.
I bair OOS if falcon raptor Boosts the back though. Bair flows WONDERFULLY into a dashattack at low percents, which means a grab.
I generally don't try to stuff raptor boost because my reaction time sucks but I DO recall just simply GRABBING a falcon out it before, no sheild neccesary. It was funny.
I always had mixed feelings about this matchup in relation to the Ganon matchup. They're about even IMO in terms of how hard they are. Ganon has a much more telegraphed tempo than Falcon has, however, it's much harder to prevent him from doing things. Falcon has a much harder to read tempo but I feel like its easier to crush him if you manage to get a read. The problem is that IC still has to dedicate themselves to something in order to stop what they're doing. Meanwhile, ganon is relatively safe doing what he does and falcon, while not as safe has an easier time punished tiny openings than Ganon. They both kill nana pretty easy too.
I wanna say it's like 60/40 Falcon&Ganon/ICs. It's doable, just really tough.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
He also lost to UberIce and Chu. Fly beat Hax at Apex, but Hax beat Chu at GSG. You can interpret that either way I guess; the only thing certain is that recent results aren't an argument for Falcon having an advantage.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
oh wow. im impressed by your lack of bias. this thread doesn't have too many posts like this one lol. I approvethat mewtwo ***** hella hard!!!
The Star King
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 6, 2007
- Messages
- 9,681
I was about to rage about your hypocrisy when it comes to lack of bias, but then I saw the small black text and realized you were joking.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
its not really all that biased if its true. imo mewtwo is really cool.
mewtwo isn't that good. its possible to compete at top level.
its a toss up between him yl zelda on the tier list. based on whats documented m2 would be above or below zelda. even with that I think m2 can be more versatile than zelda and isn't defeated by don't get kicked.
slower larger characters have some difficulties with sb camping.
sbs are for zoning and used for reactionary approaches.
mewtwo has a slight advantage on zelda.
mewtwo is proven to be more tourney viable than roy based on results which are the closest thing to factual data in smash.
shadow ball is better than charge shot.
thats like 70% of my posts. whats untrue?
I think you are confusing bias with objectivity and perspective.
also, I made a joke but I was serious about kyu's post. I wasn't saying he was biased. but ". You can interpret that either way I guess; the only thing certain is that recent results aren't an argument for Falcon having an advantage." was legit.
mewtwo isn't that good. its possible to compete at top level.
its a toss up between him yl zelda on the tier list. based on whats documented m2 would be above or below zelda. even with that I think m2 can be more versatile than zelda and isn't defeated by don't get kicked.
slower larger characters have some difficulties with sb camping.
sbs are for zoning and used for reactionary approaches.
mewtwo has a slight advantage on zelda.
mewtwo is proven to be more tourney viable than roy based on results which are the closest thing to factual data in smash.
shadow ball is better than charge shot.
thats like 70% of my posts. whats untrue?
I think you are confusing bias with objectivity and perspective.
also, I made a joke but I was serious about kyu's post. I wasn't saying he was biased. but ". You can interpret that either way I guess; the only thing certain is that recent results aren't an argument for Falcon having an advantage." was legit.
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,860
I'm pretty sure Fly Aminita didn't go to Apex. And if they did play then it must have been a pools match which isn't significant imo. Darkrain is really the only Falcon who loses to ICs, he is an outlier is an otherwise solid pattern. Hax, Silent Spectre and even Scar have fun ****** ICs.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
Heh that was a typo, Fly beat Hax 3-1 in a money match GSG and Hax beat Chu at Apex.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Dr. PP begs to differ.
BigWenz
Smash Ace
this
10this
and to back it up i give Dr.PP's 193% combo on SS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8AG9dcscRk
Divinokage
Smash Legend
lol wtf I saw a shield stab downair from Falco while he was dropping down the ledge that was sick.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Wait, people haven't seen these friendlies?! They're amazing =D
People forget that falcon grabbing falco is a scary, scary thing for falco. He doesn't need a 193% combo, he needs a grab and like 3 hits. Of coure, falco definitely beats falcon solidly, but its certainly winnable for falcon. Btw, has PP ever had to fight a falcon in tourney? I'm not saying he wouldn't win (I think he would) I'm just trying to remember a time he's actually had to fight SS/darkrain/hax etc.
People forget that falcon grabbing falco is a scary, scary thing for falco. He doesn't need a 193% combo, he needs a grab and like 3 hits. Of coure, falco definitely beats falcon solidly, but its certainly winnable for falcon. Btw, has PP ever had to fight a falcon in tourney? I'm not saying he wouldn't win (I think he would) I'm just trying to remember a time he's actually had to fight SS/darkrain/hax etc.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
PP is most definitely the best Falco vs Falcon. Without a doubt.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
LOL WTF... I don't understand the above post at all. Good sir, do you realize your post has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with what I said? I see no reason for you to quote me, and I'm entirely confused as to why you would say that. Please think before you post.
Your post might make sense if I had said "zhu is the best falco vs falcon" but I sort of NEVER claimed anything to the contrary of PP being the best falco vs falcon... wow....
Your post might make sense if I had said "zhu is the best falco vs falcon" but I sort of NEVER claimed anything to the contrary of PP being the best falco vs falcon... wow....
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
calm down lol. it could potentially indirectly answer the question of pp vs falcon in tourney.
or at least saying from a bit before your posts that falco v falcon is indeed as 1 sided as people indirectly claimed ppmd says.
or lol it means nothing in relation to what you said.
lets vote....3
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Uh. wut. Calm down. Your post is about PP v. Falcon. So is his post. I don't see the problem.
He didn't say that you said that PP isn't the best v. Falcon. What are you smokin DruggedFox. Oh, drugs. :o
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
PP has beaten Hax and Scar, I think.
I don't think he's played Darkrain or SS.
He *might* have played Darkrain at TO4 but I don't think he did. I think he went out to Hungrybox and Colbol for some reason, but I don't remember that bracket too well.
I don't think he's played Darkrain or SS.
He *might* have played Darkrain at TO4 but I don't think he did. I think he went out to Hungrybox and Colbol for some reason, but I don't remember that bracket too well.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Thanks KK =D That's all I needed; I'll probably try to find him vs Hax. I didn't think he had played darkrain or SS either, but who knows.
@TheCrimsonBlur
I just find it annoying that this thread is supposed to be about intelligent discussion, and I spent a LOT of time posting trying to help this thread become an intellectual thread, then someone simply posts unrelated nonsense while quoting me. Btw, PP is, and has been since he first showed up, my favorite falco. I also think he's great vs falcon, but I was questioning the objectivity of such a statement when I wasn't entirely sure which falcons he has actually played in tournament.
If he hasn't even fought the two best falcon players in the world, although I also think he's the best vs falcon, it doesn't seem like a legitimate claim to make, as there is no tournament evidence to suggest this.
Sorry if I sound annoyed that this thread has deteriorated significantly within the past month.
@TheCrimsonBlur
I just find it annoying that this thread is supposed to be about intelligent discussion, and I spent a LOT of time posting trying to help this thread become an intellectual thread, then someone simply posts unrelated nonsense while quoting me. Btw, PP is, and has been since he first showed up, my favorite falco. I also think he's great vs falcon, but I was questioning the objectivity of such a statement when I wasn't entirely sure which falcons he has actually played in tournament.
If he hasn't even fought the two best falcon players in the world, although I also think he's the best vs falcon, it doesn't seem like a legitimate claim to make, as there is no tournament evidence to suggest this.
Sorry if I sound annoyed that this thread has deteriorated significantly within the past month.
TheGoat
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 584
I agree, and it would be nice if people would continue with legitimate discussions instead of deteriorating the thread like you have said. I wasn't able to find any tournies of dr pp vs ss or against darkrain so saying that falco beats falcon 65:35 because of dr pp is an invalid argument.
Nothing against dr pp of course. One of my favorite falcos, I'm just trying to be as objective as possible.
I found zhu vs ss here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS0RnSoTygE
Arguably some of the best players of both characters. Zhu won, but not by a huge margin-I still think 65:35 is a bit too drastic.
Those are just friendlies.
BigWenz
Smash Ace
a 193% combo and if u include the next stock its closer to a 300% combo makes that match clearly not a friendly lol but in all seriousness that match just shows how bad the match up can get for falcon like i think hax said falco v falcon is anywhere between 60 40 and 70 30 and i mean 65 35 seems good to me considering that falco can out prioritize all of falcons aerials (since the majority of the moves falcons use are aerials this is kind of a big deal/issue) and since this chart i assume is supposed to be based more off of theory than actual results cause i mean in theory falcon is a ****ty character
- slow *** tech roll which leads to getting tech chased into oblivion (see sheik and for a match example doesnt get any better than m2k vs darkrain)
- gets comboed and / or chaingrabbed to death or close to it by almost every character
- no projectile
- most of his moves both air and ground have quite a bit of lag to them granted u can l cancel aerials but god forbid u miss an l cancel cause u will be ****ed
- and no actual approach most falcons will tell u if ur approaching as falcon ur doing it wrong
- and has the EASIEST and i mean EASIEST recovery to edgeguard in the game
the reason why falcon is so **** cause his combo game is pretty **** but it requires ridiclous reads where as other characters such as falco have automatic combos on him + the people who play falcon and place well with him ss darkrain etc are just really fcking good
essentially when u lose to a falcon u got outplayed simple as that he doesnt really ahve any gay gimmicks or cheap tactics to win but in theory this character gets **** on
oh and if u want tourny matches fine i got ur tourny matches i present to you zhu vs SS and zhu vs darkrain from pound 4 pay close attention the the last stock on both these games
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awc2_t02PPc zhu vs darkrain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEAKIBAXtgk zhu vs SS
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
@BigWenz
"The reason why falcon is so **** cause his combo is pretty **** but it requires reads where as other characters..."
You're wrong, no offense at all. That is most common misconcept about captain falcon in my opinion, and is what makes players like hax worse than their full potential. Falcon actually has a guaranteed tech chase on fox and falco, believe it or not. I've posted numerous times about this, in numerous threads, including this one.
If a fox or falco doesn't tech, he runs the risk of getting stomped -->upsmash/raptor boost--> knee. Generally this gets you off the stage for a relatively easy edgeguard.
If a fox or falco does tech, it is a guaranteed regrab. Why is darkrain such a beast, so fast... such a "mindreader" as his combo video's title suggests? Admittedly, he IS amazing at prediction; that does not change the fact that you can simply, based on pure reaction speed (it's not all that hard either), get a consistent regrab. After playing darkrain for the first time, I made it a point to go study darkrain's videos. I finally realized it was possible, and spent my time practicing it in match. By the end of the smash session, it was obvious that it is possible.
Hax is an amazing falcon player, but he drops at least half his grab combos on fastfallers because he tries to predict them. The fox can tech one of three ways, as well as not tech. Not teching brings in several more options. Even if you're capable of reading your opponent, the sheer probability of consistently punishing off prediction is too low to be consistent. Reaction on the other hand? You tech chase them until they realize teching is a bad idea, then you punish the instant they don't tech.
Also:
-Falcon doesn't have that much lag on his aerials.
-Sheik is honestly just as easy to edgeguard as falcon.
Btw, 193% combo isn't friendly? Actually, its very friendly. If it were a serious match, a falco of DrPP's level would look to end the combo with a kill in the most efficient and quick fashion, giving SS the least amount of time to get out of it. Combo'ing your opponent to such high percents is entirely inefficient, and should never be done in any serious match. The faster you can get the kill, the better.
You want to theory smash? Falcon can tech chase with equal consistency that falco can combo him. This involves no prediction. More theory? If falcon lands a stomp at around 60%, he should either knee/reverse knee (after a raptor boost?) the falco off the stage and set up for an easy edgeguard. He can react to side-bs with ftilts, and if the falco up-bs he can jump off stage and hit him.
It's definitely at least 60/40 falco, for various reasons, but for someone to say falcon has to rely on reading his opponent to combo is simply incorrect.
"The reason why falcon is so **** cause his combo is pretty **** but it requires reads where as other characters..."
You're wrong, no offense at all. That is most common misconcept about captain falcon in my opinion, and is what makes players like hax worse than their full potential. Falcon actually has a guaranteed tech chase on fox and falco, believe it or not. I've posted numerous times about this, in numerous threads, including this one.
If a fox or falco doesn't tech, he runs the risk of getting stomped -->upsmash/raptor boost--> knee. Generally this gets you off the stage for a relatively easy edgeguard.
If a fox or falco does tech, it is a guaranteed regrab. Why is darkrain such a beast, so fast... such a "mindreader" as his combo video's title suggests? Admittedly, he IS amazing at prediction; that does not change the fact that you can simply, based on pure reaction speed (it's not all that hard either), get a consistent regrab. After playing darkrain for the first time, I made it a point to go study darkrain's videos. I finally realized it was possible, and spent my time practicing it in match. By the end of the smash session, it was obvious that it is possible.
Hax is an amazing falcon player, but he drops at least half his grab combos on fastfallers because he tries to predict them. The fox can tech one of three ways, as well as not tech. Not teching brings in several more options. Even if you're capable of reading your opponent, the sheer probability of consistently punishing off prediction is too low to be consistent. Reaction on the other hand? You tech chase them until they realize teching is a bad idea, then you punish the instant they don't tech.
Also:
-Falcon doesn't have that much lag on his aerials.
-Sheik is honestly just as easy to edgeguard as falcon.
Btw, 193% combo isn't friendly? Actually, its very friendly. If it were a serious match, a falco of DrPP's level would look to end the combo with a kill in the most efficient and quick fashion, giving SS the least amount of time to get out of it. Combo'ing your opponent to such high percents is entirely inefficient, and should never be done in any serious match. The faster you can get the kill, the better.
You want to theory smash? Falcon can tech chase with equal consistency that falco can combo him. This involves no prediction. More theory? If falcon lands a stomp at around 60%, he should either knee/reverse knee (after a raptor boost?) the falco off the stage and set up for an easy edgeguard. He can react to side-bs with ftilts, and if the falco up-bs he can jump off stage and hit him.
It's definitely at least 60/40 falco, for various reasons, but for someone to say falcon has to rely on reading his opponent to combo is simply incorrect.
TheGoat
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 584
Friendlies are friendlies-the two would be playing considerably differently if it was a tournament.
Nevertheless, I see your point, especially about how falcon relies heavily on his aerial game and how falco out prioritizes him (not to mention lasers). Thanks for articulating and backing up your points this time, I just was not convinced by your pointing out of dr pp. Perhaps my perception of the ratios is different, maybe I see 65:35 more drastic than other people. I think falcon just needs to get a couple grabs or hits and follow them up to finish falco, especially because falco is a lightweight and has poor recovery. Falcon can kill falco pretty much as easily as falco can kill falcon.
I've been watching some tournament videos of darkrain and silentspectre vs some falcos, and they did lose against most of the top falcos, but by no large margin. Certainly not 65:35, I'd go with 60:40
BigWenz
Smash Ace
@drugged fox im having a hard time believing a guranteed regrab but i will watch darkrains videos and see what ur talking about but to say guranteed im skeptical but not ruling it out and i dont think falcons tech chase are on equal with falco's combos only because as u said darkrain is like the only one who does it consistently while their are numerous falcos who can combo the *** out of falcon so just from taht statement alone i feel that saying their exactly equal is strecthing it a bit and as for lag on falcons aerials i should have clarified that i meant when the hitbox comes out he doesnt have an aerial like fox's nair where it comes out in a flash and the hitbox is right there
as for edeguarding sheik as easy as falcon i have to disagree
heres a situation lets say im playing doc and i just back threw sheik/falcon off stage so im bout to do my bair shanigans and go for a gimp what can both of these characters do to defend against it?
sheik has her fair aka the slap chop and she can and without carefully thinking on my part probably will connect with said slap and make it back no problem
falcon i honestly have no idea what falcon is supposed to do other than pray the doc messes up or is slow wit da bair and thus gives falcon a chance to up B over doc cause trying to under is just asking to get caped and unlike sheik he really cant throw an aerial thats gonna beat the bair but if u know what hes supposed to by all means tell me cause i feel that in this situation its more of the doc messing up why falcon makes it back
i understand this is just one situation and i understand that if u can force sheik to up B on to the stage ur guranteed some damage and possibly throwing her back off the stage but falcon is still easier to edgeguard cause he cant really defend him self
tl;dr for why sheik harder to edeguard than falcon is sheik can defend her self while recovering before the need to UP B while falcon can not so i dont see how sheik is just as easy to edgeguard than falcon but as i dont paly sheik i could be wrong but from wat ive seen and read sheik can slap da **** outta alotta things when people try to edgeguard her
as for edeguarding sheik as easy as falcon i have to disagree
heres a situation lets say im playing doc and i just back threw sheik/falcon off stage so im bout to do my bair shanigans and go for a gimp what can both of these characters do to defend against it?
sheik has her fair aka the slap chop and she can and without carefully thinking on my part probably will connect with said slap and make it back no problem
falcon i honestly have no idea what falcon is supposed to do other than pray the doc messes up or is slow wit da bair and thus gives falcon a chance to up B over doc cause trying to under is just asking to get caped and unlike sheik he really cant throw an aerial thats gonna beat the bair but if u know what hes supposed to by all means tell me cause i feel that in this situation its more of the doc messing up why falcon makes it back
i understand this is just one situation and i understand that if u can force sheik to up B on to the stage ur guranteed some damage and possibly throwing her back off the stage but falcon is still easier to edgeguard cause he cant really defend him self
tl;dr for why sheik harder to edeguard than falcon is sheik can defend her self while recovering before the need to UP B while falcon can not so i dont see how sheik is just as easy to edgeguard than falcon but as i dont paly sheik i could be wrong but from wat ive seen and read sheik can slap da **** outta alotta things when people try to edgeguard her
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Test out the tech chase yourself. I mastered it within one smash session, its really easy, actually. You just have to have fast enough reflexes.
If sheik's slap counts as a legitimate counter measure to being edgeguarded, then falcon's uair (Which has more range) seems equally legitimate to me.
The thing is, this situation sounds like gimping, not general edgeguarding. Yes, falcon is easier to gimp at low percents. That is what you're talkin about. At high percents sheik isn't ever close enough to do anything but up-b back, which leads to easy edgeguarding. Falcon at high percents can go really high to recover, making it harder to get him back off (he has far less lag than sheik upon landing). He also has edgecancel tricks, and if you've ever watched SS recover, you know it's not guaranteed.
So yeah, gimping falcon's easier... edgeguarding? Not particularly.
Last note: I encourage everyone who plays falcon to pick up the tech chase tactic. I've tried to point it out as much as possible, most people say they are skeptical because they don't see many falcons do it... but it works. The only condition it's not guaranteed from my experience, is when they don't tech, which is incredibly risky. I do it with downthrow personally, btw.
If sheik's slap counts as a legitimate counter measure to being edgeguarded, then falcon's uair (Which has more range) seems equally legitimate to me.
The thing is, this situation sounds like gimping, not general edgeguarding. Yes, falcon is easier to gimp at low percents. That is what you're talkin about. At high percents sheik isn't ever close enough to do anything but up-b back, which leads to easy edgeguarding. Falcon at high percents can go really high to recover, making it harder to get him back off (he has far less lag than sheik upon landing). He also has edgecancel tricks, and if you've ever watched SS recover, you know it's not guaranteed.
So yeah, gimping falcon's easier... edgeguarding? Not particularly.
Last note: I encourage everyone who plays falcon to pick up the tech chase tactic. I've tried to point it out as much as possible, most people say they are skeptical because they don't see many falcons do it... but it works. The only condition it's not guaranteed from my experience, is when they don't tech, which is incredibly risky. I do it with downthrow personally, btw.
BigWenz
Smash Ace
im assuming ur jumpcancelling ur grabs or does just running and hitting the Z button also work? (i highly doubt the latter works but i just wanna be sure)
as for using up air to defend oneself i thought sheiks slap has greater prioritiy then falcons up air and secondly unlike the slap if that up air gets baited falcon is gonna be in a world of hurt cause now chances are he has to either jump or UP B which could end up setting falcon for getting gimped and maybe this is just a personal thing but i feel that gimping is a part of edgeuarding in the sense that A i think most peopel define gimp as dying at low percents off some random move usually a move that if used on the stage wont directly lead to a kill i.e foxs shine its never gonna kill directly but it can lead into things that will kill such as waveshine up smash. with that said i feel that i feel that when ur gimping someone ur preventing them from getting back to the stage/ ledge which is what edgeguarding so maybe u have a different defintion for gimping and edgeguarding but for me personally i feel that gimping is a type of edgeguarding since a successful edgeguard should lead to death and thus i still feel that sheik is not as easy to edgeguard as falcon but i do agree that at higher percents if sheik has to land on stage she is royally ****ed
TheGoat
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 584
You know that's an interesting point. I don't get why some high level falcons drthrow and then go for a random dair or knee. At such a high level of play, they should be able to easily follow rolls and regrab, and just punish for not rolling.
Now, I don't know how intense or difficult it is for them way up there in such competitive play, but I can't imagine it could be very different from everyday techasing.
Four options: 2 side techs, tech in place, and no tech. Just learn the timing differences for all the upper characters (the ones you would seen in tournament play, no need to bother with low tiers) and that's it. Maybe a high level falcon player would like to come in and say something.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Yes definitely JC grab, and I prefer to dash dance prior to them teching, because falcon's initial dash animation is slower than his actual run, so its faster if you dash dance.
Also, gimping is a part of edgeguarding, but falcon, overall, isn't necessarily easier to edgeguard. Specifically, he's easier to edgeguard close to the stage. Also, I've fought sheiks with falco, baited their fair, then just fsmashed them. That's a world of hurt for sheik just as much as it is for falcon. So it just depends how much you value each aspect of it; overall edgeguarding vs gimping.
@Thegoat, I would like a high level falcon player to comment, because I've found it incredibly useful. My falcon (my secondary) used to occasionally beat my training partner's falco, but usually I'd lose pretty badly (2-3 stock). After I found out about this, every grab I get has the potential to end in death for him. This makes the falco far more wary, and careful, giving me more time to figure out ways around him. To a lesser extent, its the effect wobbling has. If it's banned, people aren't scared of IC nearly as badly as when its unbanned. As soon as we realized the potential for a guaranteed tech chase, suddenly the matchup came under a whole new light. Definitely falco's advantage, but suddenly falcon's grabs seemed far more meaningful.
Also, gimping is a part of edgeguarding, but falcon, overall, isn't necessarily easier to edgeguard. Specifically, he's easier to edgeguard close to the stage. Also, I've fought sheiks with falco, baited their fair, then just fsmashed them. That's a world of hurt for sheik just as much as it is for falcon. So it just depends how much you value each aspect of it; overall edgeguarding vs gimping.
@Thegoat, I would like a high level falcon player to comment, because I've found it incredibly useful. My falcon (my secondary) used to occasionally beat my training partner's falco, but usually I'd lose pretty badly (2-3 stock). After I found out about this, every grab I get has the potential to end in death for him. This makes the falco far more wary, and careful, giving me more time to figure out ways around him. To a lesser extent, its the effect wobbling has. If it's banned, people aren't scared of IC nearly as badly as when its unbanned. As soon as we realized the potential for a guaranteed tech chase, suddenly the matchup came under a whole new light. Definitely falco's advantage, but suddenly falcon's grabs seemed far more meaningful.
Winston
Smash Master
I'm pretty sure most decent/good falcons know about and use it already... it's one of the most basic elements of techchasing.
Like you said, you learned it from playing Darkrain. SS and s2j also make use of it heavily. Check out s2j's most recent vids vs. Lucky
As for why falcons don't just always go for a regrab, it could be the correct way to techchase, but one thing to keep in mind is that they can just slide off and escape if you throw them kind of close to the edge. I think the correct thing to do is regrab until you can force a near the edge guessing game, which is much more in your favor than a middle of the stage guessing game. Mix in other types of guesses/mindgames for maximum EV. And that's pretty much exactly what the top falcons do now, though some of them don't go for the regrab enough.
Like you said, you learned it from playing Darkrain. SS and s2j also make use of it heavily. Check out s2j's most recent vids vs. Lucky
As for why falcons don't just always go for a regrab, it could be the correct way to techchase, but one thing to keep in mind is that they can just slide off and escape if you throw them kind of close to the edge. I think the correct thing to do is regrab until you can force a near the edge guessing game, which is much more in your favor than a middle of the stage guessing game. Mix in other types of guesses/mindgames for maximum EV. And that's pretty much exactly what the top falcons do now, though some of them don't go for the regrab enough.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
There's a difference between tech chasing as a concept of prediction and guessing, and tech chasing as a concept of guaranteed.
@Gustav Wind, I realize s2j and SS do it, but they could do it better imo. I watched s2j vs lucky, was reallllly happy to see a falcon implementing it, but I saw several missed opportunities. I actually would prefer middle of the stage, because I get a guaranteed grab afterwards. When it gets next to the ledge, you can dthrow --> drop zone, or if you're not in a situation to do that, upthrow works. Upthrow next to the edge, you can hit them before they simply fall onto the ledge, and can, once again, reaction tech chase them if they do anything else.
As you said, falcon's don't go for the regrab enough. Hax spends about 50% of his time predicting, imo, give or take. SS goes for too much prediction imo, as well. That's why I'm talking about this like its not something most people know as "one of the most basic elements of tech chasing." Sure they know about it, but they hardly abuse it compared to what they could. S2J is the closest I've seen, and even then it could be significantly improved. It's the difference between knowing that marth can CG fox, and knowing how to 0-death CG fox. Yes, the falcon players tech chase, but they could do it more efficiently for sure.
@Gustav Wind, I realize s2j and SS do it, but they could do it better imo. I watched s2j vs lucky, was reallllly happy to see a falcon implementing it, but I saw several missed opportunities. I actually would prefer middle of the stage, because I get a guaranteed grab afterwards. When it gets next to the ledge, you can dthrow --> drop zone, or if you're not in a situation to do that, upthrow works. Upthrow next to the edge, you can hit them before they simply fall onto the ledge, and can, once again, reaction tech chase them if they do anything else.
As you said, falcon's don't go for the regrab enough. Hax spends about 50% of his time predicting, imo, give or take. SS goes for too much prediction imo, as well. That's why I'm talking about this like its not something most people know as "one of the most basic elements of tech chasing." Sure they know about it, but they hardly abuse it compared to what they could. S2J is the closest I've seen, and even then it could be significantly improved. It's the difference between knowing that marth can CG fox, and knowing how to 0-death CG fox. Yes, the falcon players tech chase, but they could do it more efficiently for sure.
Winston
Smash Master
It depends on how well you think Falcon can react to a missed tech. As of now when they miss the tech and you are going for a reaction regrab, they are able to escape most of the time. I've heard talk about using crouching to cover all the options but for some reason or other that hasn't been implemented yet, so I'll discount that for now.
Also I think realistically there's like a 10% error rate for reacting to the tech in place, since it's so much harder to react to. Maybe this can be eliminated with enough practice; I'm not sure where the realistic upper limit is for this.
Finally, there's the sliding off the edge thing. It's not the same position as the dropzone. When you throw them a certain distance from the edge they can DI away and slide off to escape if you rely too heavily on regrabs.
I agree that Falcons don't go for the regrab enough, but I also think that you are overrating it a bit. With the techniques we know are practical as of now, you have to make guesses sometimes to get maximum EV, which is why Hax guesses as often as he does. You can just do it in a way that improves your chances from pure guessing.
Also I think realistically there's like a 10% error rate for reacting to the tech in place, since it's so much harder to react to. Maybe this can be eliminated with enough practice; I'm not sure where the realistic upper limit is for this.
Finally, there's the sliding off the edge thing. It's not the same position as the dropzone. When you throw them a certain distance from the edge they can DI away and slide off to escape if you rely too heavily on regrabs.
I agree that Falcons don't go for the regrab enough, but I also think that you are overrating it a bit. With the techniques we know are practical as of now, you have to make guesses sometimes to get maximum EV, which is why Hax guesses as often as he does. You can just do it in a way that improves your chances from pure guessing.
PB&J
Smash Hero
i cant wait til most people see drugged fox play..i bet they will start believing your post alot more..kid is a monster..monster.
with that being said
the falcon tech chase thing is true..he proved it last weekend..we will record vids next time of his falcon and post it in this thread
falcon vs falco isnt as bad as people think
pp never played darkrain or ss in tourny
people need to stop counting mm's as being better..tourny is a whole other feeling to play.
icy's vs falcon is even or slight favor for icy's..dont get raptor boosted and u should do pretty good
uber ice,chu,wobbles all beat darkrain..i havent seen the wobbles vids vs rain but uber ice didnt wobble and still won,,chu dat did..fly beat hax in a mm, but mm or different just like crew battle matches
like is said before.
druggedfox- lets record like a thousand matches and post them in here..different characters and such
with that being said
the falcon tech chase thing is true..he proved it last weekend..we will record vids next time of his falcon and post it in this thread
falcon vs falco isnt as bad as people think
pp never played darkrain or ss in tourny
people need to stop counting mm's as being better..tourny is a whole other feeling to play.
icy's vs falcon is even or slight favor for icy's..dont get raptor boosted and u should do pretty good
uber ice,chu,wobbles all beat darkrain..i havent seen the wobbles vids vs rain but uber ice didnt wobble and still won,,chu dat did..fly beat hax in a mm, but mm or different just like crew battle matches
like is said before.
druggedfox- lets record like a thousand matches and post them in here..different characters and such
Divinokage
Smash Legend
Didn't Zhu and Shizwiz faceroll some Falcons too? Even Bam 2-0 Darkrain back in the day.
- Status