Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[FoxLisk]

well. the numbers don't represent anything solid. think about it as a unitless scale if you want to. like.

if 55-45 is the minimum possible advantage (say jiggs over peach or something like that), where in general the first character is going to win, but if his opponent gets one or two good reads it can swing around, then 60-40 is an advantage about twice that size, where the first character can be a little sloppier and still come out on top, etc. so an 80-20 advantage is 6 times as big an advantage as jiggs has over peach. that means that the first character has to mess up or get cold read many many times in a match to lose it.

 

[Druggedfox]

I've definitely always understood them to be a win rate.

For instance, say that Sheik vs Peach is 55:45 in sheik's favor. I take this to mean the following:

-Assume the sheik player knows how to fight peaches as well as the peach player knows how to fight sheiks
-Assume that the players' skill is equal, as in they trade off wins 50:50 in a matchup where neither character has the advantage
-The sheik player will win 55% of matches against that peach, and the peach player will win 45% against that sheik.

I find that to be the most reasonable definition of what the matchup chart attempts to represent: purely the matchups, taking the current metagame into account, of course.

 

[JPOBS]

the scale is relative to itself and needs no other means of defining the numbers.

50/50 means even.
Any number that isnt 50/50, shows a increasing/decreasing difficulty in winning/losing the match.

No need to define it any other way, the numbers are relative to one another now end this.

 

[Mahone]

I like the = , + and - system a lot more, why did you change it. It leaves room for interpretation

Like you can just write Fox Jiggs as equal and people who think its 55-45 will be happy and people who think its 45-55 will be happy and we won't have to argue over little differences.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I've definitely always understood them to be a win rate.

For instance, say that Sheik vs Peach is 55:45 in sheik's favor. I take this to mean the following:

-Assume the sheik player knows how to fight peaches as well as the peach player knows how to fight sheiks
-Assume that the players' skill is equal, as in they trade off wins 50:50 in a matchup where neither character has the advantage
-The sheik player will win 55% of matches against that peach, and the peach player will win 45% against that sheik.

I find that to be the most reasonable definition of what the matchup chart attempts to represent: purely the matchups, taking the current metagame into account, of course.

yea I disagree. I think jpobs gets the points on this one

might as well call the units assbeaters.

in the fox vs marth MU each player retains 50 of the 100 assbeaters.

 

[t3h Icy]

I like the = , + and - system a lot more, why did you change it. It leaves room for interpretation

Like you can just write Fox Jiggs as equal and people who think its 55-45 will be happy and people who think its 45-55 will be happy and we won't have to argue over little differences.

I mostly just wanted to continue to improve the chart further.

Really though, we have the top 7 done against each other, and that's the most important part. Realistically, we're done right now.

 

[idea]

yeah, the mixed chart is probably best.

marth vs. fox is 50-50 daffodils.

 

[Winston]

I'm not trying to nitpick or argue semantics for the sake of arguing here. I think these are legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. If it seems like I'm just arguing against stuff without making suggestions of my own it's because I haven't thought of a way that I think is optimal

I've definitely always understood them to be a win rate.

For instance, say that Sheik vs Peach is 55:45 in sheik's favor. I take this to mean the following:

-Assume the sheik player knows how to fight peaches as well as the peach player knows how to fight sheiks
-Assume that the players' skill is equal, as in they trade off wins 50:50 in a matchup where neither character has the advantage
-The sheik player will win 55% of matches against that peach, and the peach player will win 45% against that sheik.

I find that to be the most reasonable definition of what the matchup chart attempts to represent: purely the matchups, taking the current metagame into account, of course.

This idea is appealing, but people seem to love arguing about the difference between a 65:35 and a 60:40, a 55:45 and a 50:50, etc. Unless you can really tell the difference between someone winning 1 extra game out of 20, it would imply that the numbers represent qualitative levels of difficulty, rather than quantitative.

I think it's very, very difficult to accurately translate qualitative levels of difficulty (which is how the matchup discussion works, since we aren't working with any data here) into a win percentage.

Maybe we need to just keep the idea of the numbers being similar to a win percentage, but know that they aren't literally supposed to be win percentages. Some kind of weird situation like that might be the best way to resolve the issues.

the scale is relative to itself and needs no other means of defining the numbers.

50/50 means even.
Any number that isnt 50/50, shows a increasing/decreasing difficulty in winning/losing the match.

No need to define it any other way, the numbers are relative to one another now end this.

This idea works less and less well the finer the scale is. when it was just 3 degrees past even, it was more or less fine to think of it this way. When there are 10 or more degrees past even it loses a lot of meaning.

If it were just one super-knowledgeable person giving his opinion on every matchup in the game, keeping them simply "just relative to each other" would work. However, with a bunch of different groups of people discussing the various matchups they have expertise in, there's no way to keep things consistent just by having them "relative to each other".

 

[JPOBS]

Persoanlly, i think the characters should be rated by how much wood each would chuck if they were both wood chuckers

Fox vs sheik

Fox would chuck 350 pounds of wood if he could chuck wood.
Sheik would only chuck 285 pounds, if she could chuck wood.

 

[Laijin]

All top tiers except Ganon, Sheik and Jigglypuff **** YL. Falco kinda ***** him.

/discussion

 

[Stratocaster]

Oh wow thats sooo clear and useful for this matchup chart!
Just put in '****' in the little Box next to Fox and Marth where they meet YL, since they're the only top tiers not Shiek. Oh, and put 'kinda ****' next to Falco.

Ganon isn't even high tier, but if by Top tier you meant 'top, high, and mid tier' than your statement makes much more since, and we can just put '****' in the box next to Fox, Marth, Peach, CFalcon, IC's, Samus, Doc, Luigi, DK, and Mario in the YL column.

Thanks for your contribution! t3h Icy can you update the chart with the **** matchups plz?

 

[Merkuri]

I mostly just wanted to continue to improve the chart further.

Really though, we have the top 7 done against each other, and that's the most important part. Realistically, we're done right now.

I think it's realistic to include Ganon for a top 8. He's being used more and more these days so it's not like we don't know how his match ups play out.

 

[john!]

The colors for -1, =, and +1 look too similar imo. Maybe try changing them a bit?

Oh wow thats sooo clear and useful for this matchup chart!
Just put in '****' in the little Box next to Fox and Marth where they meet YL, since they're the only top tiers not Shiek. Oh, and put 'kinda ****' next to Falco.

Ganon isn't even high tier, but if by Top tier you meant 'top, high, and mid tier' than your statement makes much more since, and we can just put '****' in the box next to Fox, Marth, Peach, CFalcon, IC's, Samus, Doc, Luigi, DK, and Mario in the YL column.

Thanks for your contribution! t3h Icy can you update the chart with the **** matchups plz?

LOL

 

[KAOSTAR]

This idea works less and less well the finer the scale is. when it was just 3 degrees past even, it was more or less fine to think of it this way. When there are 10 or more degrees past even it loses a lot of meaning.

If it were just one super-knowledgeable person giving his opinion on every matchup in the game, keeping them simply "just relative to each other" would work. However, with a bunch of different groups of people discussing the various matchups they have expertise in, there's no way to keep things consistent just by having them "relative to each other".

nah, its not an idea.

its just stating that whatever the numbers are called as units means nothing. the chart is internally consistent with units of measurement so they can be compared directly to each other.

it x character does y much better. it says that pretty clearly. I call the units *** beaters lol.

 

[t3h Icy]

The colors for -1, =, and +1 look too similar imo. Maybe try changing them a bit?

I'll do that next time I update.

For now:

 

[Stratocaster]

Thanks for the update, the chart is MUCH more accurate now

Only problem I forsee is instead of debating exactly what 65:35 means we'll be debating exactly what **** and kinda **** are...
Of course everyone knows what **** is, but I can see people debating what exactly kinda **** is... you know like what precisely does kinda ****** someone entail, and is YL still considered a virgin afterwards?

awesome chart update, thanks again
Hopefully Laijin can fill us in on some more matchups

Spoiler

for instance: Does Mario **** Peach?

 

[rhan]

I got major negitive erection when I saw that Ypoung Link has failure "****" matchups...

It kinda killed the kid in me a little bit...

Edit: Also

YLink v Fox / 35:65

YLink v Marth / 40:60

YLink v Falco / 30:70

My opnion. I strongly think that Falco is much harder to play against than Fawkz..

 

[omgwtfToph]

No, that's me being pretty sure you do...
You just have a **** in your *** because you can't convince anyone that Mewtwo is viable.

kaostars mewtwo ****ing raaaaapes you have no idea

 

[t3h Icy]

Okay back on topic:

So I thought numbers would flow better, but it seems people still like the advantage system, so are we done now, should we continue with numbers, or what?

I'm willing to put work into the project if need be, just let me know what you think we should do if anything. =)

 

[Cosmo!]

wow I havent actually looked at the chart in awhile. lookin good

 

[Winston]

Yeah, forget I said anything icy. It's probably just better to continue as it's going now

 

[FoxLisk]

hahaha i think in some ways **** is actually preferable to +2 or +3 kinda ****. we get too many arguments that are like

"well peach yoshi can't be +2 if sheik YL is +2 cause sheik definitely beats YL by more than peach beats yoshi by"

if all the ones tha twere at least +2 just said "****" or "*****" (on the opposite side of the matchup) then we'd know that it's bad enough not to worry about and there wouldnt be any annoying logic like that

 

[Cactuarz]

iirc peach ***** yoshi harder than sheik ***** YL

 

[KAOSTAR]

hahaha i think in some ways **** is actually preferable to +2 or +3 kinda ****. we get too many arguments that are like

"well peach yoshi can't be +2 if sheik YL is +2 cause sheik definitely beats YL by more than peach beats yoshi by"

if all the ones tha twere at least +2 just said "****" or "*****" (on the opposite side of the matchup) then we'd know that it's bad enough not to worry about and there wouldnt be any annoying logic like that

its best to isolate each characters MUs.

so sheik can justify beating yl harder than marth.

but don't compare how hard yoshi loses to peach to how bad zeldas loses to marth.

its easier to keep everything n perspective. when the chart is finished it should balance out if they are accurate and certain MUs are used as bench marks.

the high tier MUs set the chart and the low tier ones refine it.

its hard to compare apples to oranges accurately so even then I would only look at 1 characters MUs at once. as a whole there is a lack of consistency between characters because the interpretations of the players who "confirmed" the MUs are different.

 

[Cactuarz]

i agree with you there kaostar, but just adding my useless 2 cents yoshi loses to peach about as bad as zelda does to marth, maybe more so... that's a horrid matchup for yoshi

 

[Mind Trick]

peach is one of the if not the most managable matchup of top/high tier.

 

[Cactuarz]

zelda doesn't get ***** by marth

 

[otg]

I still refuse to believe that A LOT of Samus's matchups are as good as they are labeled as. Just because hugs is amazing doesn't mean all of a sudden samus goes even with Fox and a number of other characters.

Just saying.

 

[Mahone]

Okay back on topic:

So I thought numbers would flow better, but it seems people still like the advantage system, so are we done now, should we continue with numbers, or what?

I'm willing to put work into the project if need be, just let me know what you think we should do if anything. =)

I know you worked really hard on the numbers but i think you should make the whole chart with the advantage system.

It looks weird with only part of the chart being numbers and i think it would be very hard to read if the whole chart had numbers

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol everyone who responded to my post about isolating MUs.

those were just random examples. I didn't put any thought into the characters I chose.

@mindtrick-yoshi does ok vs peach? kinda interested to hear how that goes.

teh icy-don't change the chart. the hybrid is fine. numbers for low tiers would be too hard and probably wrong. this one is pretty good.

I still refuse to believe that A LOT of Samus's matchups are as good as they are labeled as. Just because hugs is amazing doesn't mean all of a sudden samus goes even with Fox and a number of other characters.

Just saying.

lol I agree with you, but im not gonna challenge hugs on it. but a few samus players I know have some similar views so that makes me feel a bit better about it.

sometime you get too good at a MU and your views on it get skewed.

 

[JPOBS]

I still refuse to believe that A LOT of Samus's matchups are as good as they are labeled as. Just because hugs is amazing doesn't mean all of a sudden samus goes even with Fox and a number of other characters.

Just saying.

agree 100%

 

[THeDarKnesS]

LOL @ Samus being = with any of the top tiers.

 

[Jack of Blades!]

Looking at just the top characters, and adding and subtracting the match up numbers they all have, Jiggs places second best being 20 under Fox. Jiggs is a number beast within the top tiers, lol.

unless I miscounted something, which I might have I am terrible at math, lol.

 

[john!]

You could make a character rankings out of this. Like, translate 1 to 60-40, 2 to 70-30, and 3 to 80-20, then weight the characters (Top (Fox) = 26, Bottom (Pichu) = 1) and multiply the matchups by the weight, sort into order, weight again, multiply and sort again, etc. until you reach equilibrium. Know what I mean?

Also there's just no way that Peach is Falco's worst matchup. I really think that's even. Any good Peaches/Falcos think Peach wins the matchup?

 

[Divinokage]

agree 100%

Ya, I mean just because I am able to beat most people doesn't mean Ganon has good matchups.. Though it is kinda hard to look beyond your own experience and try to theorize smash in the first place. =P

 

[JPOBS]

Also there's just no way that Peach is Falco's worst matchup. I really think that's even. Any good Peaches/Falcos think Peach wins the matchup?

i've been advocating for falco > peach since the chart started but im not hugs or anything so meh

I've never heard any of the top falco's mention peach being a losing matchup since like 05

 

[Druggedfox]

I still refuse to believe that A LOT of Samus's matchups are as good as they are labeled as. Just because hugs is amazing doesn't mean all of a sudden samus goes even with Fox and a number of other characters.

Just saying.

Hahahaha, so you've seen through his clever plan to encourage people to pick up samus =P
Nah, everytime I've even attempted to say that multiple characters give samus the business, I get a bunch of replies saying that up-b OoS>top tier. At that point, I quit arguing =P

@Icy:

Great job with the matchup chart =D One glaring thing, imo, is the falco falcon matchup. I'm sure most people probably don't care enough to get into specifics, but I really can't believe that it's 65:35... Hax does fine against lambchops, I know that for sure. I've never seen darkrain have huge trouble with falco players, in fact last time I saw him face a big falco was at pound 4 where he had that really good set with zhu. I've read mango say that the more he plays it, the more he thinks falcon can handle falco fairly well.

I'm hardly saying falcon has an advantage, but I look at falcon's matchups and see two glaring 35s and just go "okay, falcon is better than this". Since everyone's saying the numbers are semantics, this might not be particularly important, but I really feel like it's not a 65:35.


Peach vs falco... eh apparently everyone thinks peach beats falco, and I have absolutely no idea why. The only real evidence of this is armada, and he beats everyone (in europe) anyway, no matter who they pick, which leads me to believe this has less to do with the matchup. I mean, peach has some nasty stuff on falco, but I've never felt it justified saying peach>falco. Just another matchup I'm throwing out there (along with the falcon one) that I feel to be questoinable, and would like to see what people think.

Again, awesome job with the chart =D

 

[The Good Doctor]

Hahahaha, so you've seen through his clever plan to encourage people to pick up samus =P
Nah, everytime I've even attempted to say that multiple characters give samus the business, I get a bunch of replies saying that up-b OoS>top tier. At that point, I quit arguing =P

@Icy:

Great job with the matchup chart =D One glaring thing, imo, is the falco falcon matchup. I'm sure most people probably don't care enough to get into specifics, but I really can't believe that it's 65:35... Hax does fine against lambchops, I know that for sure. I've never seen darkrain have huge trouble with falco players, in fact last time I saw him face a big falco was at pound 4 where he had that really good set with zhu. I've read mango say that the more he plays it, the more he thinks falcon can handle falco fairly well.

I'm hardly saying falcon has an advantage, but I look at falcon's matchups and see two glaring 35s and just go "okay, falcon is better than this". Since everyone's saying the numbers are semantics, this might not be particularly important, but I really feel like it's not a 65:35.


Peach vs falco... eh apparently everyone thinks peach beats falco, and I have absolutely no idea why. The only real evidence of this is armada, and he beats everyone (in europe) anyway, no matter who they pick, which leads me to believe this has less to do with the matchup. I mean, peach has some nasty stuff on falco, but I've never felt it justified saying peach>falco. Just another matchup I'm throwing out there (along with the falcon one) that I feel to be questoinable, and would like to see what people think.

Again, awesome job with the chart =D

I always though Falco did quite well against Peach than the other good characters, since lasers can keep her down...

 

[idea]

leave it the way it is. some matchups are known really well and are important, others no one cares about or knows much about, so hybrid is the best of both worlds.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I would personally like to see MU's down to Doc, but if no other good players that play mid tiers wanna help with this I guess we can't do it, idk.