Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[KAOSTAR]

fair enough. I still think it goes the other way. I thought it was from the MU thread.

ill respond and read your post when I get to a computer.

 

[john!]

Me and Gustav Wind did this. we wrote code and such. the equilibrium is fox -> infinity, all other characters -> zero.

you don't get what i'm saying. like if there were only 5 chars in the game, it would look like this:

ta da, tier list. i might have messed up somewhere but you get the point. this simulates the actual metagame because as certain characters get good, their counters start gaining in popularity, and the counters for that character gain in popularity, and so on.

 

[The Star King]

Marth above Sheik and Puff?

LOL

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding this.

 

[Winston]

you don't get what i'm saying. like if there were only 5 chars in the game, it would look like this:

That's pretty much exactly what we did.

we made the mistake of not choosing a lower number of iterations, mainly. There are a couple other issues with the approach which may or may not be significant flaws.

 

[t3h Icy]

Don't forget though that Falcon and Ganondorf are better against Marth than vice versa, so he would get knocked down afterward.

Also, if each character was played and represented an equal amount, Sheik would be a comfy second.

 

[Merkuri]

Fox/Puff
Falco
Sheik
Marth

The first one looks pretty accurate to me. Weighting shouldn't be done here because the weights would have be defined by that character's match ups but at the same time the character's match ups would define the weight. It becomes kind of a chicken and the egg thing.

 

[rhan]

fair enough. I still think it goes the other way.

You think a majority of the match-ups are in Mewtwo's favor... lmao

 

[dch111]

In that spreadsheet, Marth is continuously pulled up by his even match-up with Fox. Won't beat Falco though

What that method essentially does though, is that anyone who does well against the best character, will eventually be 2nd best after enough iterations. His/her other match-ups won't really matter (besides determining 2nd/3rd/etc. if there are others that do equally well against the best). It's an interesting perspective, nonetheless.

 

[Merkuri]

In that spreadsheet, Marth is continuously pulled up by his even match-up with Fox. Won't beat Falco though

What that method essentially does though, is that anyone who does well against the best character, will eventually be 2nd best after enough iterations. His/her other match-ups won't really matter (besides determining 2nd/3rd/etc. if there's others that do equally well against the best). It's an interesting perspective, nonetheless.

So Samus would eventually be 4th according to this weighting method.

 

[t3h Icy]

I don't think the math works quite like that.

 

[Winston]

^ with the matchups as they are now Samus should hit 4th or 5th if you keep iterating.

 

[dch111]

With the current match-up value, and with enough iterations, yes. I don't have any comment on what conclusions should be drawn from this, though.

 

[Winston]

I have a couple of comments on it if people are interested...

ultimately though I think while the approach creates a meaningful list if done correctly, it's not the list that we're looking for when we think about a tier list, "character rankings list", or whatever you want to call it.

 

[V3ctorMan]

*sniff* I let all the Yoshi players down.. I went to the AZ tourney here...got a sheik first round and Peach 2nd round, but was determined to stay Yoshi and rep him... sadly I did lose..painfully... but I will still continue to push/strive for perfection...

<3 Yoshi..

Vids will be up soon, so all can watch me get pummeled.. by those better chars?

 

[t3h Icy]

The rankings I used for the chart are a different method than tier lists. Tier Lists suggest which characters offer the greatest chance to win tournaments (more or less). The ranking method I used would only work out as a tier list if all characters were used equally. Even though some weaker characters aren't totally abysmal, they still aren't used at all in tournaments, unlike Brawl and SSB64.

*sniff* I let all the Yoshi players down.. I went to the AZ tourney here...got a sheik first round and Peach 2nd round, but was determined to stay Yoshi and rep him... sadly I did lose..painfully... but I will still continue to push/strive for perfection...

<3 Yoshi..

Vids will be up soon, so all can watch me get pummeled.. by those better chars?

Sheik is the breaker of Low Tier hearts.

 

[Winston]

^ Well, the method john proposes doesn't assume that all characters are used equally.

It does assume though that a character's popularity is directly proportional to its viability in tournament though, which doesn't hold in real life.

 

[Merkuri]

The rankings I used for the chart are a different method than tier lists. Tier Lists suggest which characters offer the greatest chance to win tournaments (more or less). The ranking method I used would only work out as a tier list if all characters were used equally. Even though some weaker characters aren't totally abysmal, they still aren't used at all in tournaments, unlike Brawl and SSB64.

It may not work as tier list but it could work as list to define who is truly the best character. If we're simply talking about which character is the best then it wouldn't matter if some characters are used more than others.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

The first one looks pretty accurate to me. Weighting shouldn't be done here because the weights would have be defined by that character's match ups but at the same time the character's match ups would define the weight. It becomes kind of a chicken and the egg thing.

you just said the same thing 2 different ways...

 

[AlphaZealot]

What that method essentially does though, is that anyone who does well against the best character, will eventually be 2nd best after enough iterations. His/her other match-ups won't really matter (besides determining 2nd/3rd/etc. if there are others that do equally well against the best). It's an interesting perspective, nonetheless.

This is the exact reason Diddy Kong is 3rd on the current Brawl tier list. He has mediocre MUs galore, but has the best MU vs MK, and MK takes out his worst MUs.

 

[KAOSTAR]

The point of Bair at most times is not to simply hit with. A well-spaced bair is not only hard to punish, a big monkey coming at you with his foot spaced properly puts pressure on the Mewtwo player. Spamming bairs might seem defensive to you, but approaching you with an attack is actually offensive and the Mewtwo player is pressured by it. The more pressure a player is under, the more likely he is to make a mistake. That's partly the point of spamming bairs with DK. Yes, it's a great move and difficult to punish. Jigglypuff's is even better. But neither character would win matches unless they did other things, too; bairs apply pressure and increase the likelihood of mistakes (every player makes mistakes, btw) to punish.

Im aware that bair spam puts pressure on individuals. But m2 doesnt typically have a problem with those power moves. REason being, he slides alot, and even more when he lightshields. Not to mention his backwards roll distance it too large for DK to punish. On the edge Light shield in to ledge grab into return to the stage.

I agree with taj in its class of MU. Its in the same class as puff, zelda, and ganon. Puff and ganon are obviously better and have more tools than just that single move. Ganon can fair>JAB. puff doesnt need to land so she can literally just follow you. Zelda has kick to kick but then nothing after that. DK has bair but no real followup.

The power move is what you should fear but, its the quick follow up that makes m2 unable to punish very easily, although it can be done. DK lacks the second part to really make m2 sweat. Ill reiterate-ganons fair to jab or fair to ftilt make the MU pretty hard. Teleport oos with only 4 frames(no additional) of landing lag can catch dk by surprise as well. You can still turn around in time but only if you react to it very quickly. other wise your front facing dk is gonna get grabbed.

I don't understand your terminology at times. Does SB mean Side-B, or Shadowball? Either way, none of those are going to combo into grab, and if you're using Shadowball to cover your approach as Falco uses his lasers, then IDK wtf you're doing. Shadowball has far more ending lag and pushes Mewtwo backwards a bit. DK can just hit an uncharged shadowball with his foot, I'm fairly sure. If it's charged, he can powershield it or lightshield it to put distance between Mewtwo and DK.

SB=shadow ball. Im just gonna start with you are underestimating the sb. I wouldnt be sitting here telling ppl over and over again that you can use sb to guide approaches if it didnt work. The mindset is not the same as laser into grab that falco has.

M2 is simply forcing you to react. Doing nothing is not an option. Either you get hit, in which you can get grabbed. Jump over it, in which I would have to react to that but being above m2 isnt in DKs favor. Dair is pretty dec but you have to commit to it early or You will get caught by nairs. LAst option is you choose to shield, in which you can also get grabbed.

Im not taking frames here or anything like that. Im just telling you what works. The large characters, or the ones that slow have trouble with sbs. The faster characters you attempt to slow them down.

There isnt any pushback on the smallest sb. Its the larger ones that have push back. Once again, Im not going to let you tell me how to play my character. I honestly wouldnt sit here and tell you im gonna throw sbs and chekk your reaction if it wasnt effective.

DK has the 5th best dash-dance in the game if you count Pikachu. He runs faster than Falco, for God's sake. His wavedash is about as good as Sheik/Ganondorf's. Mewtwo has a good wavedash, I'll give you that, but in no way does Mewtwo "outclass" DK in speed OR mobility. Shadowballs can just be jumped over, Mewtwo can't punish DK as he comes down (which doesn't take very long, btw; his falling speed is faster than Marth's). Trying to grab DK after he shields is funny because you'll get Up-B'd out of shield.

Yes he does. M2 is a more mobile character than Donkey Kong. Somebody who rivals m2 in terms of mobility would be IC. Id say they are about equal tho Id give the ICs the slightest of mobile edge. As far as ground mobility, falco is kinda weak, he just has every tool to make up for it....ie saying pew pew pew and now you cant even move.

Plz do not confuse distance on a WD to how good it is. While m2s WD distance is among the best, he startup is a bit slower, so you have to find the balance of distance and quickness. Dk has a respectable Wd for spacing, but do you really think you can catch m2 if he was running away. Thats great on the DD, but what exactly are you looking to punish a dtilt? cuz m2 isnt going to aerial at you. Nobody said that DK was helpless. Maybe you are but I dont think you are trying to say DK is one of the more mobile characters in the game. He aint zelda or bowser, but he is no captain falcon or even IC lol who are pretty close to m2.

So I guess you are telling me that Dk cant get grabbed out of his shield. Im well aware that he can up b oos. So can bowser but thats realistically just his best attack oos.(prery good tho) You dont have time to see if I grab, either you upB and commit and I get hit trying to grab or you upB and I shield and grab you after.

If DK is facing Mewtwo and he isn't Dash Dancing, he's doing it wrong. DK's tilts suck except for dtilt, which can be used pretty much like Marth's. Good luck trying to punish his dtilt, let alone trying to punish it with Mewtwo.

I agree that he is doing it wrong. Thats why m2 can cross him up occasionally. Teleport oos and get to that front side gets you out of pressure and every now and again can get you a grab or something.

M2s forward smash and downsmash both can punish tilts. DK would eat a 20% fsmash, because it has a tipper. but thats if you are wrecklessly spamming.

Dks dtilt would clank with m2s and its also slower or cc. Im just saying its not really a factor. Its punishable, but not to the point where you take damage just for doing it. If its expected you can get punished for it.

If you were Falco, I'd be able to believe that I can't spam bairs and deal with the projectile at the same time and keep any sort of an even exchange of damage going. Mixing up his approach with full jumps, fast falls, dj's, wavedashes, Dash Dancing, lightshield/powershields, etc. can get around Falco's lasers to an extent. Don't try to argue that Mewtwo's Shadowballs can do what Falco's lasers can't. SB's don't even apply pressure to DK. DK can just fulljump charge Giant Punch and you can't punish that if you're spamming SB's. Then the monkey's head starts steaming. This in and of itself applies pressure on the Mewtwo, because you're always like "Shiet, when is he gonna unleash his Donkey Punch?" GJ spamming one of the lesser projectiles in the game.

So now you know what Im thinking? lol. Im not saying you cant get around them. But you having to get around them is the point of using them in the first place. Fulljump will get you naired. Especially if you charge Giant punch.

You either want to be facing backwards or preparing for Dair. M2 can punish that if he is spamming sbs. Getting hit on your way down with the sb itself is in fact a punish. Sbs are not designed to keep ppl from moving.

Its not the projectiles themselves that are either good or bad. If m2 had falco lasers he would be worse as a character in a lot of ways. He could probably camp better. But his projectile would never lead into anything. The reason he can use sbs to approach is because they are slow enough that he can follow them.

Its a moving hitbox for zoning purposes. the options are pretty simple and very safe. Throw the ball and see what they do. Its a game of patience. I also think its a terrible idea to rely on powershielding and lightshielding FC sbs.

If you light shield you stand a good chance at getting grabbed because of the added hitstun. Or at least now u are being pressured with tilts. M2 doest care if you powershield a slow half damage projectile back at him. There is a chance ill eat that ****. but thats really only gonna happen at close range. in which case if you miss I can punish your shield stun.

That giant punch thing is dumb. The nature of the MU doesnt change. You would probably just get camped a little more. Doesnt it get weaker as time goes on?

I can charge a sb and say the same thing, oh my purple hand now ur afraid. But it shouldnt be too much of a problem for either character. I cant use sbs to approach and if you charge im just gonna camp more(probably)

Mewtwo's ridiculously hard to edgeguard, I'll give you that. Dtilt and bair can only accomplish so much, and when Mewtwo can just teleport on reaction if DK tries to edgeguard with Up-B, it's kind of silly. But what exactly can Mewtwo do against DK sweetspotting an Up-B, save for a super clutch ledgegrab & ledgeroll? If you're on the ledge I'm likely going to try to recover high. Then you can wavedash onto the ledge and... do what? What is Mewtwo going to do against Monkey Copter when he's facing away from the ledge and DK's already on-stage spinning? And what do you do if DK just recovers high? Like, to a platform on Dreamland high. Double jump bair? lol. Dair is somewhat legitimate for edgeguarding, but MEXICAN and I have both learned to ledgetech well enough by now. Doing that will most likely lead to a spinning monkey in your face while you're in the endlag of your dair.

LMAO. You dont get it. you dont edgeguard at the ledge lol. Im ****ing m2. Edgeguard at mid/higher percents and do it off stage.

M2s has:
sb, bair, uair, dair=offstage
dsmash, fsmash, dtilt, sb, upsmash=onstage
If you are close to the ledge and doing sweetspotting, I think dsmash will connect but I cant say for sure. REason being is that I dont know how far down the hitbox actually goes. I could dair you bair you or uair you without eating tech up B. but you would recover so it doestnt matter all that much. I will say that you can sneak the edge on dks sweet spot with teleport and just drop nair/uair>bair.

The point at pro edgeguarding imo is to take the fight as far off stage as possible keeping your dj. As long as you have it you can still make it back and re attempt. 1 jump to get there half to get back plus an up B.

M2 is only decent at gimping space animals. Well he isnt even that good at it lol, but it can be done. Everyone else he can edgegaurd pretty well because he abuses the fact that he can recover if they attack him or use an up B or something like that. Edgeguarding Dk isnt terribly hard, gimping him is more difficult.

Its also not hard to catch sky copter on top platform. Id get a punish but by that point you are considered recovered. Id have to catch you recoverying high way off stage. Rising reverse uair to bair handles that pretty well tho.

DK can be on a platform. He can maneuver platforms as well as or better than Mewtwo. Nairing DK while he's on a platform won't work because I'll just up-b you out of shield. Uptilt is a passive attack with Mewtwo. He isn't Marth, so he isn't going to scare DK trying that ****. Teleport OoS is a legitimate option, but I'm going to guess that it's possible to uair Mewtwo's shield, fastfall, then dash -> shffl Nair on Mewtwo before he can land if he's going from a platform, unless he's going to another platform, in which case CONGRATULATIONS, you just reset the position and gained nothing.

You are starting to sound condescending. You have to wait for the hitstun of a constant attack to end b4 you can just hit m2 oos with up B. M2s nair isnt very easy to punish while you are sitting on a platform. You nair the bottom half on the shield and its a **** *** shield poker. Idk how DK and his ****ty *** shield can punish that. I dont care if you can waveland like crazy or even move platforms or something stupid like that. the point is m2 is at an adv if you are shielding on a platform. You go for the shield poke, If it happens go from there. If not uptilt when you land and if they escape just reset.

Most of this is kinda wrong. As I showed earlier, DK is not a "lower mobility powerhouse." Not even sure he's a powerhouse, since he's a bad character, just not as bad as Mewtwo. Yea, DK's grab range is shorter than Mewtwo's, but so is Fox's. Fairly moot point; DK's still going to get grabs. Cargo u-throw Uair probably doesn't combo forever, but cargo fulljump uthrow to uair/bair/fair/Giant Punch probably combos longer than cargo uthrow uair.
DEFENSIVE STANCE. KONG FU. UH-ROO?

A powerhouse is just a character that uses a lot of strong moves or spams a strong move as their primary method of attacking. DK has a bunch of strong moves. He isnt the slowest character in the game. But he is slow enough.

Fox is much faster and has one if not the best approach in the game. So It makes sense for him to force himself close enough to get grabs. Sure Dk will get some grabs, but they will all be off mistakes that m2 has made. You cant combo a hit into a grab. M2 can
tech chase into grab
sb into grab
Wd into grab
dtilt into grab
nair into grab
bair into grab

Im sure you could prob combo cargo into a couple uairs. nothing special. With avg DI you would get out pretty easily. The donkey punch might even connect. You will have a much harder time getting grabs I promise you.

Yeah, the Neutrals won't really change the match-up much. DK can Up-B mewtwo while Mewtwo's on the platform above him on all neutrals but Dreamland, though. I'd hate to play against Mewtwo on Dreamland in tournament... oh wait, I have... **** lasted 6 minutes. But the DK player will most likely counterpick to Brinstar, or Kongo Jungle 64. Brinstar's fun because it makes DK's bad vertical recovery way better thanks to Mr. Acid, and the stage being smaller doesn't hurt his Bair spamming at all.The uneven terrain will mess with Mewtwo's tech-chases (which I'm doubting he seriously has legitimate tech-chasing; what is his answer to DI away + tech away that he can do on prediction?) while not hindering DK's movement or bairs at all.

M2 can tech chase fine. its safe to say he can usually cover 2/4 options. At times 3-4 based on how close to the edge they are. Because he has so much of his game centered around dtilt/grab its very easy to get put into one of those positions. It doest help that DK is heavy and big and has low shield.

So far you have just given alot of inaccurate information. I dont think you really understand what m2 is trying to do. you have to play him differently than alot of other characters. Obviously its hard to really talk about a MU and be completely on the same page so Ill give you that, but so far you have said up b oos stops everything m2 can do except sbs lol(but of course when I go for a grab tho...upB>_<). Brinstar doesnt mess with tech chases and the platform is a good height for nairs, uptilts, uairs. Id probably give Dk the edge here tho because of the ceiling and him having stronger kill moves and also being able to recover. FC sbs are gonna fly on this stage tho lol, gotta go for those strong moves.

Kongo, Id probably try to get a lead and run away. It will be hard to hit with alot of sbs if Im not willing to approach but Ill hit with some. and I have no trouble running away on this stage lol. I think it would probably be hard for either character to catch one another but I think m2 is more likely to catch DK, but Dk is more likely to throw an attack out and get more damage. So m2 would probably rely more on sbs and prediction.

Two things.
1. DK is still the fourth fastest faller in the game, tied with Roy. Thus, he's the 4th hardest to KO with uthrow.
2. After Uthrow is DI'd, the throw becomes either a 75 or a 105 degree attack, at which point falling speed is no longer the only factor.
DK will also be getting kills off the top (cargo uthrow uair), so despite Mewtwo's uthrow being buffed on smaller stages, DK also gets buffed.
I personally don't like Yoshi's Story, either. Close blastlines mean DK can't make much use of his high weight and horizontal recovery as much as he should be able to.
Mewtwo has a legit pummel, I'll give you that, but it doesn't increase the time of the grab any more than (Frames it takes to pummel + Hitstun of Pummel - 1), as with any pummel.

M2s upthrow is ONLY affected by falling speed. Dk is harder to kill off the top that most lol yes, but its still pretty reasonable to get upward kills on him. Not my first option but when he gets to those higher percents fair, uair, upthrow which can be linked from some combo for dtilt and sb.

The pummel literally adds length to the grab. A few characters have this property. Another is pikachu. ITs something about the spark, its in m2ks frame data.

He's more mobile than Zelda, that's for sure. sup Zelda, I herd u had the slowest running speed in the game, and accelerated slower than Jigglypuff, and have no aerial mobility to make up for it? Yeah, he's more comboable (being a heavy semi-fast-faller does that), but his recovery isn't easy to punish. Especially not for bad characters.

Well I guess zelda sucks more lol. Dks recovery is more predictable but not as easy to punish. But OMG dk is m2 combo food. lol.

the rest

I dont really see m2 having a lack of priority as anything new. He lacks vs almost any character. His best aerial approach is nair and thats uber low priority. DK has range no doubt, and he is a solid character imo. I just think that he lacks some of the speed and combos.

I can see it being even and whoever plays better would win. But inherently I dont think that DK has the advantage. He def can apply more pressure than zelda, but I think m2 can still run away if he needs to. I just dont see him having anything that m2 cant deal with with the exception of aerials combat. M2 can apply some sort of pressure on DK from mid range and it makes it harder to do things like space bairs or try to wall m2 out.

Im not saying that it cant be DK>M2 but Im just not convinced. Neither Mexican or Taj did a writeup so that doesnt help much lol. Taj said DK and Mexican said M2(but Ill bet he would switch back hella fast lmao).

 

[NJzFinest]

Donkey Kong keeps getting lower and lower on this list.


/tear ;_;

 

[Nintendude]

Donkey Kong keeps getting lower and lower on this list.


/tear ;_;

You still wanna do the DK vs. ICs $5 MM at Apex?

 

[NJzFinest]

Yes sirrrr

 

[FoxLisk]

samus is going to become 4th or so (i think she got 4th in low-iteration results from our flawed model) because this system doesn't model the way tournaments work. basically, if you had like a 100-man round robin, the strong samus players would place very well. however, having one very badly lost matchup (cf or marth or fox) basically eliminated a character from being viable in elimination-style tournaments. we're talking about sort of a crude predator-prey kind of model, not a model of a double-elimination tournament.

we theoretically could. ive never done that but it would be a fun challenge. check your pms gustav, and i guess we'll let everyone know if we get interesting results.

 

[rhan]

I'm a Samus main and I don't even believe that Samus is suppose to be that high. I the highest she can be (imo) is low of high.

Btw this is the match-up thread.

 

[Divinokage]

So.. what exactly do you guys want to know about Ganon vs other matchups specifically?

 

[The Good Doctor]

Alot of text nobody will read.

Enough said Kaostar....

 

[Winston]

Enough said Kaostar....

I read his post because of this.

 

[Druggedfox]

So.. what exactly do you guys want to know about Ganon vs other matchups specifically?

Kage =D

I think what we're looking for is ratios for ganon vs essentially the other viable character, emphasis on fox, falco, marth, sheik, falcon, jiggs, and peach. If you think any of the matchup ratios are particularly debatable, maybe provide an explanation as to why you believe a particular matchup to be as you describe it? Discussion will continue on ganon matchups upon receiving your/ other good ganons opinions most likely

 

[Armada]

How can Marth and fox be 50/50?

Marth>Fox

 

[Animal]

good **** armada.

 

[D%ky]

cmon now.. brawl heads??

 

[Druggedfox]

How can Marth and fox be 50/50?

Marth>Fox

Cuz here in the states, upthrow u-air actually combos marth players

Anytime marth hits around 76-80%, just a laser or two, or pummeling them during a grab puts them in kill range for upthrow --> u-air on essentially any stage that's not dreamland. The fact that fox's upthrow almost guarantees a kill is crucial in this matchup, while marth often has trouble killing fox at higher damage. Even if your opponent can DI out of the u-air, fox's bair can combo multiple times off an upthrow, and at higher damages gets marth off the stage. Because of lightshield edgehogging, anytime marth has to recover using his up-b, it should be almost a guaranteed death.

In addition, waveshining solves so many problems in this matchup. Any dair or shine leads to a guaranteed free grab, and at least one free hit afterwards. Fox also has great combo'ing on marth outside of juggling, with just nairs, which if you string 3 or 4, can easily lead to half a stock with next to no effort.

Marth also generally relies on using his great dash + amazing range to beat most characters in matchups. Fox being the fastest/most agile character allows him to sneak in hits, and weave in and out far better than almost any other character.

What I just said obviously doesn't cover the entire matchup, but they are key points which highly affect the matchup. If you (or anyone else) thinks otherwise, I'd hear any counterarguments/opinions.

 

[The Good Doctor]

I read his post because of this.

I hate you!
Have a nice day!
On topic, I think Fox and Marth are pretty even.

 

[NJzFinest]

Hmm, you can't up throw uair Marth in PAL?

That's odd. I thought Marth falling down from the shine and Fox being easier to edgeguard was "bad" enough.

 

[The Star King]

Not to mention the Up-Smash being weaker.

Why is Fox easier to edgeguard in PAL?

 

[NJzFinest]

Lighter, so he gets knocked out further away.

Shorter Up B distance, so he can't cover as much distance when coming back.

Watching PAL matches with Fox mindgame to hell out of me since you'll find the Fox falling short on recovery in situations where he'd be fine in NTSC.

 

[Armada]

Druggedfox: Yeah but smash DI and THEN fastfall bair/fair works REALLY good against fox if he are trying to do u-throw uair.

Marth
-Better range
-Better combos (fox have good combos against Marth to but Marth is better here)
-You have better changes to actually survive if you are outside the stage
-Better chances to gimp him (shine is really good but still)

Fox
-Faster
-Laser

Marth>Fox

ShootingStar: Like NJzFinest said AND the up-b have better range (i mean when you are loading the upp-b)

 

[TemPesT-]

i think that match ups really stage dependant.

FD marth
YS evenish
DL Fox
FoD Fox
BF marth

 

[Winston]

Cuz here in the states, upthrow u-air actually combos marth players

I'm pretty sure this is the same in PAL

the big difference as far as fox's offense goes is shine not comboing into a guaranteed grab because marth falls over