Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Armada]

John: 55-45 in Peachs favor.

 

[Strong Badam]

no johns armada!!11

to the dude who said Falcon can handle Falco: lol. yeah, 1 character having to outright guess a lot of the time to continue his combos as opposed to actually inescapable combos with shine, dair, and utilt. plus falco chooses to use the gun he has.

 

[Armada]

Druggedfox: I will show you why at apex.

Strong Bad: No johns?

 

[Merkuri]

leave it the way it is. some matchups are known really well and are important, others no one cares about or knows much about, so hybrid is the best of both worlds.

I agree with a hybrid chart but wasn't the plan originally to stop at Samus? We should try doing numbers for Ganon and ICs before stopping.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I agree, I've been waiting for the IC discussion to start.

 

[shehehe11]

Hey

what about the fox - falco matchup?

i always thought it was a very slight advantage for falco

 

[Druggedfox]

Druggedfox: I will show you why at apex.

Strong Bad: No johns?

Armada, you have no idea how much I look forward to that I REALLY want to see this, and will be watching, good luck =DD

@Strong_bad... falcon pretty much having to guess? That's what a lot of people think... the thing is, falcon can get combos off of pure reaction time. I tested this, watched matches, and played a lot of falcon to make sure: Out of downthrow against falco, if you have perfect reaction time, you can punish falco for any single tech he does. If he techs in place, left, or right. If he doesn't tech, he risks getting combo'd the hell out of by upsmash, dair, or just getting knee'd. Next time, I recommend less prediction, more reaction. This is also works after upthrow, btw.

With that said, grab should get you a regrab/hit at least 75% of the time if you have passable reaction time, with perfect reaction time they can never truly get away. Also, falcon doesn't need 20 hit 0-death combos, he needs a dair and a knee at around 60%, followed by an edgeguard. The grab tech chase works from 0 until essentially any damage, but pro falcon players try to predict their opponents for a risk vs reward deal. If you predict correctly, you get the reward of a knee/dair and a nice half-stock combo or more. Alternatively, if they would just go for the guaranteed hits, get falco to around 60%+, then just grab --> knee, dair--> knee, or raptor boost--> knee, it gets falco off the stage and either dead, or in a very bad position.

If falco laser spams, the run forward powershield gets you a free grab if they're too campy. Nair over lasers, quick double jump above them into a dair/knee. Falcon's speed allows him (especially with platforms) to have minimal issues with lasers.

 

[t3h Icy]

Alright, we'll do Ganondorf and Ice Climbers vs the top 7 and each other as well.

 

[Djent]

I've been lurking this thread for several months and listening to the strategy discussion for specific matchups. I can honestly say I feel less intimidated by Melee's learning curve now, and would really like to play it competitively in the future. I would just like to thank everyone involved in making this chart, and also let you know that it is an excellent resource for would-be players.

 

[Kyu Puff]

ICs 45:55 Fox
ICs 50:50 Falco
ICs 45:55 Jiggs
ICs 60:40 Sheik
ICs 40:60 Marth
ICs 55:45 Falcon
ICs 25:75 Peach
ICs 30:70 Ganon

The last two might both be +5 for ICs.

Also, ICs should be > DK. I don't know why you changed it to = on the chart...

I'll wait to see what people disagree with...

 

[Druggedfox]

Kyu, the one character I'm honestly going to admit I'm not familiar enough with is ICs. Could you explain a couple reasonings for some of those matchups? I'm mostly wondering about the IC vs fox and falco.

Then, is IC vs peach/ganon that unwinnable?? Though it makes sense those would be hard, I wasn't aware they were that bad.

 

[Strong Badam]

Armada: I believe your equivalent would be "Inga Yunas," however I was making a bit of a joke on John!'s username.

Armada, you have no idea how much I look forward to that I REALLY want to see this, and will be watching, good luck =DD

@Strong_bad... falcon pretty much having to guess? That's what a lot of people think... the thing is, falcon can get combos off of pure reaction time. I tested this, watched matches, and played a lot of falcon to make sure: Out of downthrow against falco, if you have perfect reaction time, you can punish falco for any single tech he does. If he techs in place, left, or right. If he doesn't tech, he risks getting combo'd the hell out of by upsmash, dair, or just getting knee'd. Next time, I recommend less prediction, more reaction. This is also works after upthrow, btw.

With that said, grab should get you a regrab/hit at least 75% of the time if you have passable reaction time, with perfect reaction time they can never truly get away. Also, falcon doesn't need 20 hit 0-death combos, he needs a dair and a knee at around 60%, followed by an edgeguard. The grab tech chase works from 0 until essentially any damage, but pro falcon players try to predict their opponents for a risk vs reward deal. If you predict correctly, you get the reward of a knee/dair and a nice half-stock combo or more. Alternatively, if they would just go for the guaranteed hits, get falco to around 60%+, then just grab --> knee, dair--> knee, or raptor boost--> knee, it gets falco off the stage and either dead, or in a very bad position.

If falco laser spams, the run forward powershield gets you a free grab if they're too campy. Nair over lasers, quick double jump above them into a dair/knee. Falcon's speed allows him (especially with platforms) to have minimal issues with lasers.

The problem is, you can't just hit them off of reaction because they can shine. Players like Darkrain and Scar agree with me, it becomes an outright guessing game if you want to actually finish your combo. Reaction time has nothing to do with it, Falcon can't deal with "not tech on ground" based on reaction because they can get-up attack or stand-up -> shine you before you can get to them.

 

[Armada]

Druggedfox: thanks man =).
And about Peach against IC: 75-25 in Peachs favor sounds good (i wanna say 75-25 to and i have IC experience).

Strong_Bad: i know and i understand that was some kind of joke but when i wrote my post i didnt understand your point.

Peach against Ganon is 60-40 in Peachs favor.

 

[FoxLisk]

You could make a character rankings out of this. Like, translate 1 to 60-40, 2 to 70-30, and 3 to 80-20, then weight the characters (Top (Fox) = 26, Bottom (Pichu) = 1) and multiply the matchups by the weight, sort into order, weight again, multiply and sort again, etc. until you reach equilibrium. Know what I mean?

Me and Gustav Wind did this. we wrote code and such. the equilibrium is fox -> infinity, all other characters -> zero.

if falco were set to beat fox, things would be slightly different.

also: falco DEFINITELY beats falcon. yes, if falcon gets a grab and plays perfectly he can get often get a big combo out of it. however, falco has so many more options than falcon it's pretty dominant. that is a significant advantage.

i think falco beats peach on big stages and is slightly less than even on smaller ones. if falco has room to run around and camp as necessary and only take the openings he needs, peach has a hell of a time keeping up. it's very difficult on yoshi's and on peach's classic counterpicks (i.e. mute city which is now banned in a lot of tourneys and brinstar). my two cents is that it's falco's favour under p4 rules: he strikes yoshis and dreamland, bans whichever of those two he is less comfortable on. falco has a slight edge on FoD, FD, and battlefield as i see it (a very slight one, admittedly). so he wins the first match, loses the second on brinstar, and then wins the third on FoD or somewhere. very slight edge to falco.

 

[BEES]

Hey

what about the fox - falco matchup?

i always thought it was a very slight advantage for falco

I would agree, and I think Falco is Fox's worst matchup. It's like 52-48. Falco has more options, but it's still quite close because of Fox's speed advantage, and the fact that both characters can punish each other into a stock loss over small mistakes. It's the most common matchup in tournaments since it involves the two most common characters, so the fact that Falco seems to win a bit more often should mean something, considering the sample size we have.

falcon - falco

Another falco advantage, but anyone that thinks this is worse than the shiek matchup is insane. In 2010 you still have the top falcon players beating the top falco players occasionally. Darkrain beating Shiz, for instance. When was the last time one of the top falcons beat M2K's Shiek? To my knowledge, that has never happened. It's probably 60:40, maybe 65:35. Falcon has the disadvantage on approach and recovery, but remember that a well-placed knee can be a stock loss for Falco at stupidly low percents. Falcon is better at finishing, and I would consider his combo options equally potent.

fox - falcon is more contentious I think. 55-45, not 65-35 like the chart currently shows. Falcon clearly has an easier time here than he does against Falco. Falcon players routinely overcome this disadvantage. I'm not even fully convinced there is a disadvantage.

peach - falco is even

falco - jiggz is our worst matchup. I'd say 40:60. Definitely winnable, and you might feel like you have more control with falco, but you have to do so much more work to win. Mistakes for Puff just mean damage. Mistakes for Falco mean stocks.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think falcon vs falco isn't that bad because of powershielding and nairs OoS for falcon. No doubt a very difficult match-up, but i think all of falcons bad matchups are exaggerated. "Any bad matchup where you can take a stock with 1 hit can't be worse than 60:40".

 

[BEES]

Similarly, I think people have been exaggerating Fox's advantages lately. There are twice as many Fox players as the next most popular character. Fox has the largest pool of talent. He has small advantages over much of the cast, and those are simply magnified by the higher quality of players.

 

[Merkuri]

falcon - falco

Another falco advantage, but anyone that thinks this is worse than the shiek matchup is insane. In 2010 you still have the top falcon players beating the top falco players occasionally. Darkrain beating Shiz, for instance. When was the last time one of the top falcons beat M2K's Shiek? To my knowledge, that has never happened. It's probably 60:40, maybe 65:35. Falcon has the disadvantage on approach and recovery, but remember that a well-placed knee can be a stock loss for Falco at stupidly low percents. Falcon is better at finishing, and I would consider his combo options equally potent.

M2k is a lot better than all of the top Falcon mains. Amsah and M2k's sheik are about the same skill wise and Hax beat Amsah.

 

[t3h Icy]

Want me to update Falco 60:40 Falcon? Scar did say both are 65:35, though Hax and Mango suggested it's not as bad as Fox.

I've been lurking this thread for several months and listening to the strategy discussion for specific matchups. I can honestly say I feel less intimidated by Melee's learning curve now, and would really like to play it competitively in the future. I would just like to thank everyone involved in making this chart, and also let you know that it is an excellent resource for would-be players.

<3

M2k is a lot better than all of the top Falcon mains. Amsah and M2k's sheik are about the same skill wise and Hax beat Amsah.

Hax also beat M2K in friendlies 3-0.

 

[Strong Badam]

Hax also beat M2K in friendlies 3-0.

Hax also beat M2K in friendlies

in friendlies

oh, okay, so it has nothing to do with this match-up chart.

 

[Druggedfox]

@Teh icy, all depends on who's word you're taking. If hax and mango say one thing, scar says another... I personally vote for 60:40.

@Strong_bad, falco can not shine out of it, I promise you. I've tested this extensively, the only thing you can't react perfectly to is the not teching. If they get in habit of not teching, it's extremely risky as its asking to get knee/stomped. Players like darkrain and scar agree with you? Well, when I first noticed this, I sat there watching darkrain vs spacy matches until I found some where darkrain literally did not move until they began to tech a direction. This might be amazing prediction, but after extensive testing I'm positive it works. It's difficult sure, but after some practice I have it down, and I promise you that if the opponent techs everytime, they'll never get out.

If your opponents shine out of it, you are either: A) too slow, or B) not using falcon's full grab range.

Also note that falcon's initial dash is significantly slower than his actual run, so you should start dashdancing asap after you throw them. Most falcons I've seen try to do this do it from a stand still, which is a huge mistake considering falcon's initial dash.

 

[Stratocaster]

The problem is, you can't just hit them off of reaction because they can shine. Players like Darkrain and Scar agree with me, it becomes an outright guessing game if you want to actually finish your combo. Reaction time has nothing to do with it, Falcon can't deal with "not tech on ground" based on reaction because they can get-up attack or stand-up -> shine you before you can get to them.

Ok I don't want to say your wrong cause your not necessarily, tech chasing off reaction is very difficult, but possible.

First you always dash towards them asap you'll see why

Dash forward> they tech away> you can catch them with grab or dair
if you wait to dash forwards until after you can read their tech they'll get away so you have to dash forward at the beginning every time and then react, your other possiblities are these

Dash forward> they tech towards you> dash dance back and you can grab, dair, or raptor
Dash forward> they tech in place> raptor boost if you haven't dashed past them when you read it or dash dance back and grab if you pass them
Dash forward> they don't tech> raptor boost or even dair if you hold back on the control stick and dair with the c-stick you can get them
both of those options will get them before they can enter their stand up or get-up attack animation- there are 25 frames of vulnerability from the green flash till they can do something

all that to say someone who knows exactly what to do and has really good (not perfect at all) reaction time can tech chase fox/falco with downthrow indefinately

eventually we'll get good at it

 

[JPOBS]

yea ok whatever falcon can tech chase we know this he still gets rocked by spacies so whatever at best its 60:40

both hax and scar have said its 65:35 iirc

 

[Stratocaster]

Ya I still agree with that, tech chasing is hard and falcon has very little to approach with and few combos that can't be DI'd out of

I'm not even sure what the point of my post was besides a really good Falcon can tech chase on reaction

 

[Scar]

just fyi hax and i talked about fox/falco matchups

we both think falco is harder

i'd still say 65/35 for both but this is one of those matchups where momentum plays a huge part and sometimes it looks like 50/50 and sometimes it looks like 70/30

on average i'd say 65/35 though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I always though Falco did quite well against Peach than the other good characters, since lasers can keep her down...

you realize you didn't add anything to the conversation.

you also made it much worse but quoting a long post.

 

[FoxLisk]

my two cents:

sheik 65:35 falcon
falco 60:40 falcon
fox 60:40 or 55:45 falcon. most people say 55:45, but after watching jman's methodical dismantling of scar from a while ago i think it's 60:40. if the fox doesn't mess up, cf has no options.

 

[Strong Badam]

WTF at Mewtwo > DK.
What the hell is wrong with you people?

 

[Winston]

Me and Gustav Wind did this. we wrote code and such. the equilibrium is fox -> infinity, all other characters -> zero.

The project wasn't anywhere near finished though. After we got those results I realized the idea was flawed but we stopped working on it it seems. I'd be happy to discuss it further if you're still interested though.

Basically the problem is we were using an arbitrary amount of iterations (i.e. "approaching infinity").

 

[rhan]

WTF at Mewtwo > DK.
What the hell is wrong with you people?

Blame Kaostar. He's always on this thread while the DK players aren't.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm pretty sure I posted a long time ago that DK > Mewtwo. It's a stupid match-up, but DK wins.

 

[KAOSTAR]

I'm pretty sure I posted a long time ago that DK > Mewtwo. It's a stupid match-up, but DK wins.

dk <m2. its not one sided but m2 has the slight adv.

you can do a write up if you like (or link me to yours). feel free to open the discussion. ill ask that you at least read mine from back when we did the MU.

but saying dk wins but its stupid isn't going to be enough. im not gonna act like im always right or anything, but at least put forth some effort. MEXICAN agrees(accepted m2> dk)based on him losing to taj and reading part of my write up minus the part about d smash and dair. idk what any of the other m2/dk think tho.

everyone tho agrees that it is close tho.

 

[rhan]

I see a slight advantage in Mewtwo's favor. But I know little to nothing on both characters. I just know that Mewtwo has a projectile while DK doesn't. That pretty much gives him a bit of an advantage.

 

[Strong Badam]

You'll have to link me to the write-up, as I didn't find it when I searched DK + Kaostar in this thread.
I did, however, find MEXICAN's post. Pretty sure he was joking at how 222good Taj is, though. It's much easier for a Mewtwo player to get DK experience than for a DK player to get Mewtwo experience, tbh.

 

[KAOSTAR]

You'll have to link me to the write-up, as I didn't find it when I searched DK + Kaostar in this thread.
I did, however, find MEXICAN's post. Pretty sure he was joking at how 222good Taj is, though. It's much easier for a Mewtwo player to get DK experience than for a DK player to get Mewtwo experience, tbh.

I definitely agree that its easier to find monkeys. this was my take on the MU. Mexican said that I was wrong about edge guarding, saying dks recovery is better than most ppl think. the basic MU outline he said was spot on. so although a couple people said some specifics were off they were never really corrected so idk. if you can point out the flaws in my argument that would change the outcome of the match I might change my position. so this write up is not perfect and kinda long but I think it holds water and at least supports m2>dk.

every dk says they will still **** all m2s not named taj lol.

Edit:

Teh Icy-Im fine with leaving Kirby vs M2=until some other Kirby/Mewtwo players give their opinion.
1 votes K>M2
2 votes M2>K
More ppl agree M2>Kirby, not that it means much. Its just not decided upon.

M2>Yoshi-You will probably have to get confirmation for V3ctorman most likely-he plays both a good yoshi and mewtwo.

The M2 vs DK matchup comes down to Dk spamming bairs trying to force m2 to run out of space. M2 wins this matchup with offense. A well spaced bair is very hard to punish, but its not easy to connect with.

Dk is combo food for a M2. Sb>grab-dthrow>Dtilt(x2)>fair/nair/grab. All day! It just depends on the DI. M2 has a very strong combo game on Dk and he can rack up damage MUCH faster.

M2 outclasses DK in terms of speed and mobility. M2 has to maneuver around Dks bair while throwing sbs to force DKs actions. If DK puts up a shield or gets hit M2 has a good chance of getting the grab or Dtilt.

Whenever DK is facing m2 he is at a disadvantage defensively. DKs defense is his offense as soon as he makes contact with M2. DKs tilts seem to extend his hitbox and provide no real form of pressure, not to mention that any strong hit on m2 leads to nothing. If I can tech away you will almost never be able to get there in time.

Believe it or not, but DK is susceptible to SB camping. You cant spam bairs and deal with the projectile at the same time. If you arent spamming bairs, you lost the only thing you had going for you. DK can legitimately force m2 away, a little better than Zelda can but M2 can retreat to the other side more safely due to DK not having a fair. Retreating to the ledge is often a safe option, which can be achieved by light shielding or WD back oos.

In terms of edgeguarding, again its one sided. Dk doesnt have many options to keep M2 from safely returning to the stage. Conversely, M2s downsmash ***** DKs attempts at sweetspotting. SB can cause DK to lose very important vertical height, and coupled with a dair can mean an instant stock. The soft part of DKs up+B is CC and can be dealt with accordingly. Fsmash is a safe option that can punish any attempts to come above stage height.

Its bad, but alot safer for M2 to be on a platform than DK. M2 can teleport oos to escape while DK is praying he doesnt get hit by M2s nair/uptilt. Both can lead to effective followups.

DK has a good uair, and bair. M2s can deal with bair effectively and Uair doesnt combo at kill percents and is hard to get into a position to hit with it. You can cargo throw into uair until I certain percent, at which I honestly can recall, but DK has a shorter grab range than M2 and is definitely disadvantaged while facing M2. M2 doesnt aerially approach very often which limits the opportunities for DK to get any sort of vertical attack to connect.

M2 has to force DK out of his defensive stance because opportunities to break it are far and few between. Although forcing him out of it can be seen as breaking it LOL. Offensively M2 wins hands down. M2 handles the lower mobility powerhouses fairly well. A safe CP IMO because the outcome of the match will ALWAYS come down to the M2 player's ability to break defeat the zoning while being able to safely maneuver around it.

Stage(neutrals) size will only slow down or speed up the match, it doesnt change the advantage/disadvantage. DK can force M2 back on any stage and on smaller ones he looks to be more offensive. M2 has less leeway in terms of getting hit and living but on a stage like Yoshi's Story tech chasing can be menacing. The other amazing thing about YS is that its not terribly hard to put DK on a platform. When this is done it lowers the kill percent of M2s upthrow by about 7 percent per level. DK is heavy but upthrow is fall speed only and therefore kills much lower than you would think. 128/138 on FD and Its substantially lower on YS. M2s pummel also increases the time of the grab and adds decent damage.

DK is a more mobile, BUT, more combo-able Zelda with a more predictable and easier to punish recovery.

Despite all of this, M2 is still bad and even with being heavily disadvantaged the MU only surmounts to M2>DK lol.

note: Even though DK can be approaching with bairs, I consider it defense because he is really just trying to keep M2 from coming in and taking his cookies.

 

[Deleted member]

spacies vs peach is 50/50 ..u mess up..its a quick 40-60 damage. " people need to camp more against peach"

peach vs fox is akin to any other low tier vs fox in that peach simply does not have the tools to combat SOME of the things that fox is capable of doing to her. yes, the fox can choose to use options that peach can deal with, and like several other low tiers is capable of punishing him quite hard for doing so. In the event that fox chooses to do those things that peach cannot deal with, peach loses. Having to overcome adverse situations in order to win is what creates an unfavorable match-up in the first place, so I think it's justified to say that this is no exception.

 

[ChaosNoobSlayer]

I see a slight advantage in Mewtwo's favor. But I know little to nothing on both characters. I just know that Mewtwo has a projectile while DK doesn't. That pretty much gives him a bit of an advantage.

That makes sense. Donkey Kong isn't very fast so I think he might have a hard time vs projectiles.

 

[Strong Badam]

Mmk, I'll analyze your write-up with my DK/M2 knowledge.

The M2 vs DK matchup comes down to Dk spamming bairs trying to force m2 to run out of space. M2 wins this matchup with offense. A well spaced bair is very hard to punish, but its not easy to connect with.

The point of Bair at most times is not to simply hit with. A well-spaced bair is not only hard to punish, a big monkey coming at you with his foot spaced properly puts pressure on the Mewtwo player. Spamming bairs might seem defensive to you, but approaching you with an attack is actually offensive and the Mewtwo player is pressured by it. The more pressure a player is under, the more likely he is to make a mistake. That's partly the point of spamming bairs with DK. Yes, it's a great move and difficult to punish. Jigglypuff's is even better. But neither character would win matches unless they did other things, too; bairs apply pressure and increase the likelihood of mistakes (every player makes mistakes, btw) to punish.

Dk is combo food for a M2. Sb>grab-dthrow>Dtilt(x2)>fair/nair/grab. All day! It just depends on the DI. M2 has a very strong combo game on Dk and he can rack up damage MUCH faster.

I don't understand your terminology at times. Does SB mean Side-B, or Shadowball? Either way, none of those are going to combo into grab, and if you're using Shadowball to cover your approach as Falco uses his lasers, then IDK wtf you're doing. Shadowball has far more ending lag and pushes Mewtwo backwards a bit. DK can just hit an uncharged shadowball with his foot, I'm fairly sure. If it's charged, he can powershield it or lightshield it to put distance between Mewtwo and DK.

M2 outclasses DK in terms of speed and mobility. M2 has to maneuver around Dks bair while throwing sbs to force DKs actions. If DK puts up a shield or gets hit M2 has a good chance of getting the grab or Dtilt.

DK has the 5th best dash-dance in the game if you count Pikachu. He runs faster than Falco, for God's sake. His wavedash is about as good as Sheik/Ganondorf's. Mewtwo has a good wavedash, I'll give you that, but in no way does Mewtwo "outclass" DK in speed OR mobility. Shadowballs can just be jumped over, Mewtwo can't punish DK as he comes down (which doesn't take very long, btw; his falling speed is faster than Marth's). Trying to grab DK after he shields is funny because you'll get Up-B'd out of shield.

Whenever DK is facing m2 he is at a disadvantage defensively. DKs defense is his offense as soon as he makes contact with M2. DKs tilts seem to extend his hitbox and provide no real form of pressure, not to mention that any strong hit on m2 leads to nothing. If I can tech away you will almost never be able to get there in time.

If DK is facing Mewtwo and he isn't Dash Dancing, he's doing it wrong. DK's tilts suck except for dtilt, which can be used pretty much like Marth's. Good luck trying to punish his dtilt, let alone trying to punish it with Mewtwo.

Believe it or not, but DK is susceptible to SB camping. You cant spam bairs and deal with the projectile at the same time. If you arent spamming bairs, you lost the only thing you had going for you. DK can legitimately force m2 away, a little better than Zelda can but M2 can retreat to the other side more safely due to DK not having a fair. Retreating to the ledge is often a safe option, which can be achieved by light shielding or WD back oos.

If you were Falco, I'd be able to believe that I can't spam bairs and deal with the projectile at the same time and keep any sort of an even exchange of damage going. Mixing up his approach with full jumps, fast falls, dj's, wavedashes, Dash Dancing, lightshield/powershields, etc. can get around Falco's lasers to an extent. Don't try to argue that Mewtwo's Shadowballs can do what Falco's lasers can't. SB's don't even apply pressure to DK. DK can just fulljump charge Giant Punch and you can't punish that if you're spamming SB's. Then the monkey's head starts steaming. This in and of itself applies pressure on the Mewtwo, because you're always like "Shiet, when is he gonna unleash his Donkey Punch?" GJ spamming one of the lesser projectiles in the game.

In terms of edgeguarding, again its one sided. Dk doesnt have many options to keep M2 from safely returning to the stage. Conversely, M2s downsmash ***** DKs attempts at sweetspotting. SB can cause DK to lose very important vertical height, and coupled with a dair can mean an instant stock. The soft part of DKs up+B is CC and can be dealt with accordingly. Fsmash is a safe option that can punish any attempts to come above stage height.

Mewtwo's ridiculously hard to edgeguard, I'll give you that. Dtilt and bair can only accomplish so much, and when Mewtwo can just teleport on reaction if DK tries to edgeguard with Up-B, it's kind of silly. But what exactly can Mewtwo do against DK sweetspotting an Up-B, save for a super clutch ledgegrab & ledgeroll? If you're on the ledge I'm likely going to try to recover high. Then you can wavedash onto the ledge and... do what? What is Mewtwo going to do against Monkey Copter when he's facing away from the ledge and DK's already on-stage spinning? And what do you do if DK just recovers high? Like, to a platform on Dreamland high. Double jump bair? lol. Dair is somewhat legitimate for edgeguarding, but MEXICAN and I have both learned to ledgetech well enough by now. Doing that will most likely lead to a spinning monkey in your face while you're in the endlag of your dair.

Its bad, but alot safer for M2 to be on a platform than DK. M2 can teleport oos to escape while DK is praying he doesnt get hit by M2s nair/uptilt. Both can lead to effective followups.

DK can be on a platform. He can maneuver platforms as well as or better than Mewtwo. Nairing DK while he's on a platform won't work because I'll just up-b you out of shield. Uptilt is a passive attack with Mewtwo. He isn't Marth, so he isn't going to scare DK trying that ****. Teleport OoS is a legitimate option, but I'm going to guess that it's possible to uair Mewtwo's shield, fastfall, then dash -> shffl Nair on Mewtwo before he can land if he's going from a platform, unless he's going to another platform, in which case CONGRATULATIONS, you just reset the position and gained nothing.

DK has a good uair, and bair. M2s can deal with bair effectively and Uair doesnt combo at kill percents and is hard to get into a position to hit with it. You can cargo throw into uair until I certain percent, at which I honestly can recall, but DK has a shorter grab range than M2 and is definitely disadvantaged while facing M2. M2 doesnt aerially approach very often which limits the opportunities for DK to get any sort of vertical attack to connect.

M2 has to force DK out of his defensive stance because opportunities to break it are far and few between. Although forcing him out of it can be seen as breaking it LOL. Offensively M2 wins hands down. M2 handles the lower mobility powerhouses fairly well. A safe CP IMO because the outcome of the match will ALWAYS come down to the M2 player's ability to break defeat the zoning while being able to safely maneuver around it.

Most of this is kinda wrong. As I showed earlier, DK is not a "lower mobility powerhouse." Not even sure he's a powerhouse, since he's a bad character, just not as bad as Mewtwo. Yea, DK's grab range is shorter than Mewtwo's, but so is Fox's. Fairly moot point; DK's still going to get grabs. Cargo u-throw Uair probably doesn't combo forever, but cargo fulljump uthrow to uair/bair/fair/Giant Punch probably combos longer than cargo uthrow uair.
DEFENSIVE STANCE. KONG FU. UH-ROO?

Stage(neutrals) size will only slow down or speed up the match, it doesnt change the advantage/disadvantage. DK can force M2 back on any stage and on smaller ones he looks to be more offensive. M2 has less leeway in terms of getting hit and living but on a stage like Yoshi's Story tech chasing can be menacing. The other amazing thing about YS is that its not terribly hard to put DK on a platform. When this is done it lowers the kill percent of M2s upthrow by about 7 percent per level.

Yeah, the Neutrals won't really change the match-up much. DK can Up-B mewtwo while Mewtwo's on the platform above him on all neutrals but Dreamland, though. I'd hate to play against Mewtwo on Dreamland in tournament... oh wait, I have... **** lasted 6 minutes. But the DK player will most likely counterpick to Brinstar, or Kongo Jungle 64. Brinstar's fun because it makes DK's bad vertical recovery way better thanks to Mr. Acid, and the stage being smaller doesn't hurt his Bair spamming at all.The uneven terrain will mess with Mewtwo's tech-chases (which I'm doubting he seriously has legitimate tech-chasing; what is his answer to DI away + tech away that he can do on prediction?) while not hindering DK's movement or bairs at all.

DK is heavy but upthrow is fall speed only and therefore kills much lower than you would think. 128/138 on FD and Its substantially lower on YS. M2s pummel also increases the time of the grab and adds decent damage.

Two things.
1. DK is still the fourth fastest faller in the game, tied with Roy. Thus, he's the 4th hardest to KO with uthrow.
2. After Uthrow is DI'd, the throw becomes either a 75 or a 105 degree attack, at which point falling speed is no longer the only factor.
DK will also be getting kills off the top (cargo uthrow uair), so despite Mewtwo's uthrow being buffed on smaller stages, DK also gets buffed.
I personally don't like Yoshi's Story, either. Close blastlines mean DK can't make much use of his high weight and horizontal recovery as much as he should be able to.
Mewtwo has a legit pummel, I'll give you that, but it doesn't increase the time of the grab any more than (Frames it takes to pummel + Hitstun of Pummel - 1), as with any pummel.

DK is a more mobile, BUT, more combo-able Zelda with a more predictable and easier to punish recovery.

He's more mobile than Zelda, that's for sure. sup Zelda, I herd u had the slowest running speed in the game, and accelerated slower than Jigglypuff, and have no aerial mobility to make up for it? Yeah, he's more comboable (being a heavy semi-fast-faller does that), but his recovery isn't easy to punish. Especially not for bad characters.

Despite all of this, M2 is still bad and even with being heavily disadvantaged the MU only surmounts to M2>DK lol.

Only the fifth-eighth words are correct.

note: Even though DK can be approaching with bairs, I consider it defense because he is really just trying to keep M2 from coming in and taking his cookies

I explained why this is wrong earlier.

In addition, this is what Taj says. Source.

I think M2 vs. DK is kinda like a less severe version of the Ganon vs. M2 match-up. I'd say something like 55-45 or 60-40 DK's favor. DK is one of the tougher characters in the game to up throw, but you can't outspace M2 indefinitely anymore like you could get away with in 04-05.

Even though DK is heavy and equally tough to kill vertically, building percentage isn't quite as difficult because he is decent combo food for M2. M2 can also slightly dictate which direction DK is going to face for approaches, but DK still has the range and priority advantage through aerials and his grab range isn't too much worse than M2's.

 

[KAOSTAR]

lol so you wanna battle.

ill also ask taj if his opinion it still in dks favor. just wanna be sure because those are from awhile ago.



reserved...

 

[Strong Badam]

that quote is from today. less than two hours ago not recent enough information?