Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Falcon's CC game is actually pretty good.... Also, falcon's nair eats right through all of roy's aerials, and falcon can just run away all game and wreck.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
- Status
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
...Lol. So you're basically saying we ignore every element of a character except their punishment capabilities? IC's 4 No1 LOLz!
I mean, Peach even with Fox? That's not conservatism, that's stupidity.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
^this is how I thought it went.^
its redics to think MU's are transitive but in the case of an embarrassingly inferior clone,
I REFUSE to believe roy does as well as marth.
The MU is only annoying because Roy hits like a girl. Id be mad too if somebody was slappin(weak hits) me while im trying to 4 stock them.
imo its falcon>> roy. im not trying to accept x low tier ***** fast fallers as valid.
Wow Laijin. Seriously though he's good with both of them. They're not bad characters either. They're just misunderstood an neglected characters.
Last time I played him was HERB2. And before that was at a local tourney that NoVa decided to come down to. He still plays from what I hear and he is possibly still good.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It is. Kirby can hit Peach because Peach is slow and doesn't have a big hulking sword to swat him with. Kirby can't hit Fox, Falco, and Sheik if they decide they just don't want him to hit them, and Marth's D-tilt beats his entire ground game just because it outclasses Kirby's own D-tilt grotesquely (and if Kirby jumps vs Marth he dies).
Sveet, Falcon's crouch cancel game is made of mediocre because his grab range sucks except when they're behind him for some reason and his alternative is Gentleman, which can be counter CCed almost effortlessly. His D-tilt, D-smash, and the vast bulk of his ground game, really, is too slow to be effective for CC.
BunBun
Smash Master
It seriously is. It's only Peach > Kirby, IMO. I was doing decently vs macd's peach (he was still ****** me most of the time (in game (and a bit out of game))), and he's a much better player than I am.
I pretty much agree. GW >> Kirby, just because of how easy it is for GW to kill Kirby and how hard it is for Kirby to approach. I don't think it's quite as bad as >>>, but it's a solid >>.
It's def. Kirby's worst low tier matchup.
Shiek in NTSC is still way way way better than Fox. Fox is far and away Kirby's hardest matchup.
How I feel about the top set vs Kirby:
Fox >xinfinity Kirby
Falco >> Kirby
Marth >> Kirby
Sheik >> Kirby (not as bad as Falco)
C. Falcon >>/>>> Kirby (this could be my own problem, but I think it's kirby's 2nd or 3rd hardest)
Peach > Kirby
Jiggs >> Kirby
IC >> Kirby
Ganon > possibly >> Kirby (I only get to play Iori's Ganon frequently. I have played Rockrock, Eddie and Mslano a bit though)
Samus > / >> Kirby depending on style of samus. (mainly experience w/IHSB, with a little bit of Watty) (See writeup: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10405996&postcount=747)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Fox Kirby is seriously 10-0 if the Fox has any skill and homosexuality at all.
BunBun
Smash Master
I completely, 100% agree.
I think it (and Samus v Pichu) are the closest things to unwinnable that this game has.
I think it (and Samus v Pichu) are the closest things to unwinnable that this game has.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
@KK-Assuming Roy is spacing and hitting his weak ****, whats stopping falcon from taking a fair or something and nair/uair out of it? If he is closer-trying to hit with the middle of the blade, you have a better chance of getting grabs and ****.
Also during times when you cant shield, CC is not always used to retaliate, but in some cases to keep roy from starting a combo, limiting his opportunities to get damage on you(well, MORE damage lol from the combo).
PLus, we know that roy has some of those laggy points just like marth, an
Also during times when you cant shield, CC is not always used to retaliate, but in some cases to keep roy from starting a combo, limiting his opportunities to get damage on you(well, MORE damage lol from the combo).
PLus, we know that roy has some of those laggy points just like marth, an
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Mind adding to these? =)
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
CC SH aerial is super super super slow.
I also know this. And this is typically what Falcon's CC game amounts to because of how his ground game is slow and aerials have jump startup and move startup. Now, if you still think this isn't mediocre, compare this to what Sheik, Marth, and Peach work with when people strike their duck.
This is true. But so is Falcon's ground game, which is generally what you're CCing into.
I agree with Sveet that Falcon wrecks Roy just because he'll run away and DD grab camp into monster combos and tech chases and Roy doesn't have the punishment power or speed to wreck Falcon efficiently. But I don't agree that Falcon's CC is like super ridiculous versus Roy or in general. He's just fat. He can rarely do anything.
BunBun
Smash Master
Sure, but it will take me a while. My explanation of Kirby v Samus was 2000 words long xD
Quickly (and because of these super fast summaries, this will look completely like info already stated):
Falco >> Kirby.
The matchup is extremely difficult. Everyone knows that falco pew pew keep kirby away. Everyone also knows that Kirby get falco off stage falco die. No need to keep saying this.
Approaching Falco isn't on the same level of difficulty as approaching Fox or Marth. Lasers are easy to duck under, PS, or float around. Most commonly what you have too look out for when you get close is the grab. Approaching grounded and backwards, in and out of sheild leading to a wd OoS backward directly into bair is one of the best options. Past that, grab attempts and high approaches with 3rd hit fair or early dair are okay.
With Good DI, Kirby can severely limit the amount of **** falco's combos do to him. They still hurt, but as long as you can consistently DI the shine, it's not so bad. Most of the time the combo will end with a forced tech to laser / fsmash.
Shine-grab is absolutely deadly. Kirby has to play this match with the goal of keeping pressure on falco. It's all about momentum. If you can keep falco in the state of trying to regain stage control, you're doing well.
Extremely aggressive falco players will find either success or despair. This would be one of those situations where it's far too hard to tell the results of something. If the falco is willing to go balls to the wall, he could theoretically take you completely dead without you getting more than 5-10 damage on him. However, in general this doesn't work as you (as kirby) get many many chances to capitalize on errors or mindless play.
Kirby getting a grab on any spacie is just delicious. Kirby forcing a tech on Falco is delicious. Kirby forcing a platform tech on falco is pure sex. These things happen a lot in actual matches.
Matchups like this are easy to say "Falco >>> Kirby because (x)", but when you actually play the matchup it goes quite different.
P.S., Ban Yoshi's Story
I'll do the others in a minute.
EDIT: Also I left a ton of stuff out. Grrrr I might as well just write out the full matchup at some point soon.
DOUBLE EDIT: Actually I'll do the others later. I have a physics exam in the morning xD
Quickly (and because of these super fast summaries, this will look completely like info already stated):
Falco >> Kirby.
The matchup is extremely difficult. Everyone knows that falco pew pew keep kirby away. Everyone also knows that Kirby get falco off stage falco die. No need to keep saying this.
Approaching Falco isn't on the same level of difficulty as approaching Fox or Marth. Lasers are easy to duck under, PS, or float around. Most commonly what you have too look out for when you get close is the grab. Approaching grounded and backwards, in and out of sheild leading to a wd OoS backward directly into bair is one of the best options. Past that, grab attempts and high approaches with 3rd hit fair or early dair are okay.
With Good DI, Kirby can severely limit the amount of **** falco's combos do to him. They still hurt, but as long as you can consistently DI the shine, it's not so bad. Most of the time the combo will end with a forced tech to laser / fsmash.
Shine-grab is absolutely deadly. Kirby has to play this match with the goal of keeping pressure on falco. It's all about momentum. If you can keep falco in the state of trying to regain stage control, you're doing well.
Extremely aggressive falco players will find either success or despair. This would be one of those situations where it's far too hard to tell the results of something. If the falco is willing to go balls to the wall, he could theoretically take you completely dead without you getting more than 5-10 damage on him. However, in general this doesn't work as you (as kirby) get many many chances to capitalize on errors or mindless play.
Kirby getting a grab on any spacie is just delicious. Kirby forcing a tech on Falco is delicious. Kirby forcing a platform tech on falco is pure sex. These things happen a lot in actual matches.
Matchups like this are easy to say "Falco >>> Kirby because (x)", but when you actually play the matchup it goes quite different.
P.S., Ban Yoshi's Story
I'll do the others in a minute.
EDIT: Also I left a ton of stuff out. Grrrr I might as well just write out the full matchup at some point soon.
DOUBLE EDIT: Actually I'll do the others later. I have a physics exam in the morning xD
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
So basically Roy sucks. Got it.
Falcon is fat. got it.
I think falcon has a mediocre CC game in general, but I was just thinking that Roy was lacking somewhere and would have a hard time doing much about it.
But in the end I think falcon has the advantage over roy.
Falcon is fat. got it.
I think falcon has a mediocre CC game in general, but I was just thinking that Roy was lacking somewhere and would have a hard time doing much about it.
But in the end I think falcon has the advantage over roy.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Falcon ***** Roy with combos and speed, but Roy can still pressure, combo, and edgeguard Falcon. Just a LOT worse.
idea
Smash Master
alright, i'm kind of curious now =P
open question: what is the absolute WORST, most impossible matchup in this game?
open question: what is the absolute WORST, most impossible matchup in this game?
BunBun
Smash Master
Samus v Pichu, Fox v Kirby, or Shiek v Pichu.
I'm most inclined to Samus v Pichu.
I'm most inclined to Samus v Pichu.
MooseEatsBear
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2009
- Messages
- 270
So is everyone here saying that each of these match-ups at the top level of each character's metagame, definitive, with one person that has a winning match-up winning each time?
BunBun
Smash Master
This is unfortunately impossible to use to determine anything.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
The worst possible matchup is not Samus vs. Pichu. Nowhere near it. Pichu does aight against Samus. Quit life.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
He's right, Samus's spacing is liable to miss Pichu's tininess. The worst matchup could be Shiek vs a low tier she has a chaingrab on; and the one who gives her the least problems.
MooseEatsBear
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2009
- Messages
- 270
Okay, that's just not what they were saying a page or two back.
MEXICAN
Smash Lord
Hmmm....IDK if i agree with DK being -2 against ganon. Ganon definitely has an advantage, but I don't think its enough to call it -2. I have a decent amount of experience in this matchup, but probably not as much as kage or pkmvodka. I guess I'll let one of them put in their opinions about it since they know it better.
Vs ness...idk...lol. I don't know if ANYONE really knows this matchup. I've just about always 2 stocked simna's ness, but simna is oldskool..I haven't played any ness players since him though...
DK vs Roy i think should be DK>>Roy...DK does surprisingly well against marth. I'm pretty much confident against anyone's marth. I've beaten most of the best marths out there (granted they were mostly, but not all, friendlies) and if DK can hang with Marth, DK can DEFINITELY take Roy without any problems. I've played Sethlon's Roy before and it was somewhat tough considering it was a Roy, but I didn't have any problems nonetheless. Roy is too easy for DK..
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
Marth vs Pichu is the most unwinable match-up.
Laijin
Smash Hero
No way. The most unwinnable match up is clearly Mewtwo vs Young Link. It is by far the most impossible match up for Mewtwo
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Kirby vs DK is the hardest matchup in the game.
BunBun
Smash Master
lol no
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
All of you guys are wrong lol.
sheik vs ness
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
lol not really.
m2 fox is close, but im sure he (fox) ***** some other low tier harder.
otg
Smash Master
Jiggs vs. Ness is probably down there.
lol dogy once told me that ness completely shuts down jiggs
Vyzor
Smash Journeyman
I love how Dr.Mario's +1 on Ness just sticks out on the match up chart xD
Laijin
Smash Hero
Nope. Play any of the good 5 YLs in the nation with your mewtwo and then come back and tell me about how much you couldn't win no matter what. ;o
otg
Smash Master
I still say Doc >> Ness ATLEAST. Lil ***** can't do ****.
i agree with >>
Alright I just got a few things to say here...
Dayum. So rude.
Dayum. But honestly YLink >>> Mewtwo.
Vyzor
Smash Journeyman
wait, so why does Young Link pwn Mewtwo? :O
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
YL beats mewtwo I agree but **** is not a factor in this MU. His added mobility makes him a little more difficult to deal with than link. Its a pretty fun match for both characters. It turns into a camp fest, with a few action scenes. His projectile game is hard to deal with, but you cant cover every option every time and he still leaves openings.
Its definitely YL>M2
Also, who are these YLs?
idea
Smash Master
i'm having fun imagining sheik vs. ness now. dthrow to...weep. lol. marth vs. kirby seems similarly horrible...i don't see what kirby could do about fair.
jiggs vs. ness is probably pretty bad but i can definitely see other characters being worse for ness. jiggs vs. kirby is also pretty lulzy. if kirby...either fthrows or bthrows (i forget which) jiggs at a low to medium percent, jiggs can rest HIM out of it.
jiggs vs. ness is probably pretty bad but i can definitely see other characters being worse for ness. jiggs vs. kirby is also pretty lulzy. if kirby...either fthrows or bthrows (i forget which) jiggs at a low to medium percent, jiggs can rest HIM out of it.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
ICs vs Pichu with wobbling legal is probably the worst. Not that they need wobbling, but then it's like the Sheik vs Pichu match-up except Pichu can't even try to combo them.
- Status