Fortress | Sveet
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Just wait til the tournament matches are uploaded 
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Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
- Status
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
I have a problem with all these. Melee isn't some equal utopia at the top, characters still get ****ed up.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
He's being conservative. With most of the top tiers losing a stock over one mistake, characters do get ****ed up, it's just heavily dependent on skill and mindgames. It goes either way.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
The Fox/Puff matchup is not even. Its clearly in Fox's favor.
Agreed, especially
Sheik vs Puff
Marth vs Peach
Peach vs Fox
wth, they far from even
Laijin
Smash Hero
I disagree with the following:
Young Link vs Mewtwo is more like a +3 in Young Link's favor.
Seriously. Its literally almost not conceivably possible for Mewtwo to actually win if the YL player is competent and not ********.
Young Link vs Falco is EASIER than Young Link vs Fox. YL can out camp Falco with platforms because Falco is a lot slower but he cannot out camp Fox. So its more like YL vs Fox is -3 and YL vs Falco is -2.
Young Link vs Peach should be a 0. Its an even match up.
Young Link vs Mario is at best a 0. Mario does not have that much of an advantage.
YL vs Doc should be a -1 in Doc's favor.
Young Link vs DK is in Young Link's favor. So its like a +1 or +2, not a -1 in DK's favor.
Everything else from a very quick glance looks okay I suppose. But the above is what stood out the most.
I realize that nobody knows any of this because almost nobody plays YL. But ask any YL main(all five of us) and they will pretty much probably agree with me. If anyone disagrees with me, I'll be more than happy to explain my reasons on these specific match ups.
Young Link vs Mewtwo is more like a +3 in Young Link's favor.
Seriously. Its literally almost not conceivably possible for Mewtwo to actually win if the YL player is competent and not ********.
Young Link vs Falco is EASIER than Young Link vs Fox. YL can out camp Falco with platforms because Falco is a lot slower but he cannot out camp Fox. So its more like YL vs Fox is -3 and YL vs Falco is -2.
Young Link vs Peach should be a 0. Its an even match up.
Young Link vs Mario is at best a 0. Mario does not have that much of an advantage.
YL vs Doc should be a -1 in Doc's favor.
Young Link vs DK is in Young Link's favor. So its like a +1 or +2, not a -1 in DK's favor.
Everything else from a very quick glance looks okay I suppose. But the above is what stood out the most.
I realize that nobody knows any of this because almost nobody plays YL. But ask any YL main(all five of us) and they will pretty much probably agree with me. If anyone disagrees with me, I'll be more than happy to explain my reasons on these specific match ups.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Where the hell have the YL players been with all these decent matchups?
Laijin
Smash Hero
Pretty sure no one plays the character since overall he does indeed suck. lol.
Same with allcharacters that are not high tier.
Besides. The match ups I listed really don't have a significant impact on how he is. I'm just stating my opinion.
BigWenz
Smash Ace
lol wtf u aint a young link man u sheik user but your young link is waay too good
Laijin
Smash Hero
I have always mained Young Link and I still sorta do. I bring him out in weird match ups where I'm guaranteed a win if I use him(and not so much Sheik because I don't know the match ups) like Mewtwo and etc. lol
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Are you really going to main a character with a -3 against Fox, and -2 against Falco, Sheik, and Marth?
That's why there's not many Young Link mains >_<
That's why there's not many Young Link mains >_<
MooseEatsBear
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2009
- Messages
- 270
Every character has the same amount of potential, this is just how they generally match up with each other. Hence this list being an approximation of averages, not fact.
Winston
Smash Master
What does this mean? I can't make sense of any part of this post
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
"Every character has the same amount of potential". Maybe you didn't word it the way you meant to? Fox clearly has more potential as a character than Bowser, Kirby, etc.
BigWenz
Smash Ace
haha truth also out of curiosity is their gonna be another melee tier list cause just from looking at the chart falcon and jiggs should no way in hell be tied as jiggs has either an advantage where falcon has a disadvantage or has less of a disadvantage
oh and can sheik be changed by to -2 cause i dont see any justification (tourny wise) for it being anything less than -2
MooseEatsBear
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2009
- Messages
- 270
Well... I'm saying that the match-ups aren't definite. Any character can beat any character in a match Isn't this chart just an approximation of probability that one character is going to win a match and the other will lose? As in, Fox v. Pichu, Fox has a higher probability to win, but it's still only probability, and Pichu could win, right?
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Keep in mind the game isn't like flipping a coin, where it's all chance.
MooseEatsBear
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2009
- Messages
- 270
I know that. It's just that you need to account for human error, mindgame application, and tons of other things.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Any character can beat any other character, but a lot of the low tiers lack the tools to get around the tactics of better characters consistently. Beating someone when your character has an inherent disadvantage against their character requires you to be significantly better than they are, else you will fail a lot more than succeed.
BigWenz
Smash Ace
pichu beats fox if and only if the pichu has the skill lvl of mango and the fox player is a 2 year old and even then chance of pichu winning is at best 50-50 lol
MooseEatsBear
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2009
- Messages
- 270
All I'm saying is it's not impossible, and it's not 100% one will win and one will lose no matter what, even if the players are on the same skill level.
Laijin
Smash Hero
And that is why I rarely use him in tournaments ;o
YLink v Mario: Goes in Mario's favor imo. Playing Boss showed me this. But it's more or less like vs Doc. Except his fireballs aren't as bad. and the fact that he floats more than Doc makes him slightly easier to kill. -1
YLink v Peach: I agree slightly. Honestly I think Peach has an advantage of like 0.7
YLink v Falco: Hard as **** matchup! Either I just suck against Falco's with YLink because apparently you and TRC do work against them. I play against Fox better than I do Falco. I guess it depends on the player in that situation. -3
YLink v Fox: I find easier than Falco but still at a disadvantage. -2
YLink v Mewtwo: LMAO Agree
YLink v Taj's Mewtwo: -2
I'm one of those 5 and I approve this message.
DJ Nintendo
Smash Champion
Low tiers obviously have to put in mad work to beat someone, especially if that person is using a high tier. We know this already. Although just because two people are on an equal level, but one is using lets say Fox and the other is using Bowser, doesn't necessarily mean the Fox player is gonna win. It all depends on the amount of mindgames each player has, how they apply those mindgames in a match, and the knowledge they know of the matchup at hand. People who play low tiers require an extreme amount of mindgames and setups to play their character at high level play. Thats why I've beaten mad pro/high level players who are even better than me. Low tiers require more mindgames than technical skill but of course having mad technical ability is also really useful and even required for a character like, lets say Mewtwo. We also know using low tiers against a high level player using a high tier is a huge risk and if we mess up the simplest thing like an L-cancel, we can be heavily punished or even killed. I don't use Bowser in tournament anymore either lol.
Cosmo!
nerf zelda's dsmash
i feel to play a low tier well and keep up you need to be incredibly accurate and precise with all of your punishes and movement. if you wanna play low tier, get your sloppy play outta here. in this way low tiers require an absurd about of tech skill even though it may not look as impressive as your doubleshining fox.
and yea, massive mindgames
and yea, massive mindgames
Laijin
Smash Hero
Who the hell is Boss?
This dude needs to quit playing brawl and show up to a md/va tournament.
I have been here for 6 months and all people can talk about is how much better he is than most of the state(which is hard to believe seeing as how Mario/Doc is not a good character =\).
Fortress | Sveet
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I agree with this. For example, there isn't a big difference in overall punishment between a peach or marth or puff or falco or fox. Unless the character simply can't be comboed, they all take about the same mental work to kill the other person. Some take a bit more button work.
Overall i think high/top tier match-ups are very exaggerated compared to the rest of the game's matchups. Its hard to believe that any match-up where its possible to get 1 kill for 1 hit is worse than -1. In low tiers its like "which character sucks less at hurting things"
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
A sticky!? Lol, I sort of let this drift away since we were sort of done or at least as close to it, but I suppose I'll resurrect it then.
Here's the list from before:
Some Agreement:
Falcon > Roy
Ganon >> DK
Jigglypuff > Luigi
Link > Kirby
Link = Pikachu
Mario > Young Link
Marth >>> Roy
Mewtwo > Yoshi
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu > Ness
Pikachu > Roy
Pikachu > Zelda
Samus > Mr.G&W
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu
Zelda = Mr.G&W
Debating:
Falcon >> Kirby
Falcon > Samus
DK > Ness
DK > Roy
Kirby > Ness
Luigi > Roy
Marth > Luigi
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu > Roy
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link >> Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby
Here's the list from before:
Some Agreement:
Falcon > Roy
Ganon >> DK
Jigglypuff > Luigi
Link > Kirby
Link = Pikachu
Mario > Young Link
Marth >>> Roy
Mewtwo > Yoshi
Peach >> Yoshi
Pikachu > Ness
Pikachu > Roy
Pikachu > Zelda
Samus > Mr.G&W
Samus >> Yoshi
Yoshi > Pichu
Zelda = Mr.G&W
Debating:
Falcon >> Kirby
Falcon > Samus
DK > Ness
DK > Roy
Kirby > Ness
Luigi > Roy
Marth > Luigi
Mewtwo > Zelda
Mr.G&W >> Kirby
Pikachu > Kirby
Pikachu > Roy
Pikachu = Young Link
Young Link >> Kirby
Young Link > Roy
Zelda >> Kirby
soap
Smash Hero
my head hurts looking at all those matchups
john!
Smash Hero
I played vs. a good Kirby this weekend and they said that Peach was Kirby's easiest high/top tier matchup. They actually took me down to one stock on the first game.
soap
Smash Hero
don't let them in your head
Tamoo
Smash Master
It probably is tbh,
But that is just a reflection on how awful every high tier matchup is for kirby
I don't really mind shiek though... though i do play pal
But that is just a reflection on how awful every high tier matchup is for kirby
I don't really mind shiek though... though i do play pal
Cactuarz
Smash Ace
G&W >> Kirby
Agreed, G&W is like marth to a kirby, except it has slightly less range and every move is a good kill move/launcher. Possibly G&W >>> Kirby. It's horrible, the little guy can't do ANYTHING to get in.
Air game, G&W
Ground game, G&W
Grab game, G&W, though kirby can do some dthrow shennanigans.
recovering, G&W can recover somewhat well, kirby... can't, gets naired each time.
Projectile, Tie Final cutter might be more useful than chef, but it's a close one >.>
Overall Kirby just can't get in on G&W =/ I'd rather go against a good falco than a G&W, if only cause falco lasers **** with kirby, and falco will actually DIE
Agreed, G&W is like marth to a kirby, except it has slightly less range and every move is a good kill move/launcher. Possibly G&W >>> Kirby. It's horrible, the little guy can't do ANYTHING to get in.
Air game, G&W
Ground game, G&W
Grab game, G&W, though kirby can do some dthrow shennanigans.
recovering, G&W can recover somewhat well, kirby... can't, gets naired each time.
Projectile, Tie Final cutter might be more useful than chef, but it's a close one >.>
Overall Kirby just can't get in on G&W =/ I'd rather go against a good falco than a G&W, if only cause falco lasers **** with kirby, and falco will actually DIE
Siglemic
Smash Journeyman
new tier list coming, umbreon got all pissed and revealed it lol
CloneHat
Smash Champion
john!
Smash Hero
"This is our Actual Final Tier List, For Real this time, we Swear" tier list
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
impretty sure m2 zelda is over, m2 won.
m2> yoshi
but is roy really that close to falcon?
m2> yoshi
but is roy really that close to falcon?
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Roy vs Falcon can actually be annoying. Roy SHFFLs so much faster than Marth, he can create a wall against Falcon. Not to mention Falcon's crouch cancel options are pretty thin.
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