Marth's Match-Up Chart thread

[Bob Money]

Just keep throwing shiek off and edgehog, and reverse up b/nair at higher percents. Tippers good too, its just more technically demanding. Just keep her off she'll die eventually its a different kind of edgeguarding I guess.

The match up isnt even I've conceded that shiek wins it based on two aspects.
Well 3 now, nikos right shiek can keep a lead easier.

Thats the point though you can CC shiek on the ground, if she start jumping to space aerials thats what you want her to do.
Uptilt at the very least trades with back air, and fair isnt going to out range marth unless its being used for shield stun.

 

[Niko45]

Niko, that was a rather misinformed post, no offense at all. Bob money actually made a LOT of good points that you just sort of cast aside in your deconstruction of his post.

I just responded to the thing's I took issue with. You can assume I agreed with everything he said that I didn't respond to.

And no offense, but who are you? Do you even play Marth or Sheik? That post came absolutely out of nowhere.

 

[otg]

Alright a few things.

1.) Doc does have dthrow -> fair on marth
2.) There is no way Luigi is 30:70 vs. Marth, Luigi probably does the best amongst all of the Mario bros.
3.) Sheik vs. Marth is in no way a 45:55 matchup, it's easily Marth's worst and those of you who say it's closer to even have never played a good Sheik.

real talk.

 

[OverLord]

lol @ otg


@ kirbykaze: I'm certainly not as good as you, but I'll be at RoM in November, and I would really like some friendly if you'll be there. If you say you are so good against Marth then I really want to learn something from such a good Sheik, seriously.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think you guys underestimate how good Sheik is at just sticking to the ground and moving around when Marth is also doing that but..........

Maybe I'm wrong

I'm not going to be able to convince any of you anyway so it's basically a waste of time for me to try

I'll play you I guess. You probably won't be impressed. I just do throw combos.

 

[Druggedfox]

I just responded to the thing's I took issue with. You can assume I agreed with everything he said that I didn't respond to.

And no offense, but who are you? Do you even play Marth or Sheik? That post came absolutely out of nowhere.

Did you read anything I posted? I ONLY addressed the things that you responded to. I ONLY addressed the things you took issue with.

Who am I? I am a smasher. Do I even play marth or sheik? Likely better than most marth and sheik only mains do.

I'm, not sure why it matters though; what matters is that my post only addressed the things you took issue with.

 

[Niko45]

Do I even play marth or sheik? Likely better than most marth and sheik only mains do.

lol ok bro. I'll take that as a no.

 

[t3h Icy]

Well you guys are certainly talkative.

This is what I've collected:

Fox 50/50?
Falco 55/45-60/40? (50/50?)
Falcon 45/55-50/50?
Jigglypuff (ranges all over the place; 55/45?)
Sheik 45/55-35-65 (;;>_> 40/60?)
Peach 55/45?
Samus 60/40?
Doc 60/40?
Mario 60/40?

Well.. I'll wait until someone else posts something because I think it's 50-50.

Go hate on Marth in the Ganon board. D:

If Marths can now actually hit that tipper F-smash with a high degree of consistency for edgeguard then I'll concede that the matchup isn't that bad.

But I already know none of you can do it consistently

Combos made me laugh but I don't feel like articulating why.

Strawhat is really good with tippering.

 

[Druggedfox]

lol ok bro. I'll take that as a no.

That was actually a yes, I like your reading abilities and how you think marth can't CC sheik.

@tehicy:

Fox: 50/50 seems to be a consensus.
Falco: I think it's even but consensus seems to be marth advantage.
Falcon: Marth players ***** about this matchup, I think the consensus is more or less falcon's favor.
Jigglypuff: Nothing wrong with 55/45.
Sheik: 60/40. There are the marth players who cry because they think its impossible, then the people like me who think its not that bad. 60/40 seems like the compromise.
Peach: 55/45? Can you direct me as to who thinks its 55:45?
Samus: I'd say worse than 60/40 unless your name is Hugs.

 

[Archangel]

That was actually a yes, I like your reading abilities and how you think marth can't CC sheik.

@tehicy:

Fox: 50/50 seems to be a consensus.
Falco: I think it's even but consensus seems to be marth advantage.
Falcon: Marth players ***** about this matchup, I think the consensus is more or less falcon's favor.
Jigglypuff: Nothing wrong with 55/45.
Sheik: 60/40. There are the marth players who cry because they think its impossible, then the people like me who think its not that bad. 60/40 seems like the compromise.
Peach: 55/45? Can you direct me as to who thinks its 55:45?
Samus: I'd say worse than 60/40 unless your name is Hugs.

All I'll say about Marth vs Sheik is if you were to have a 10 Marth vs 10 Sheiks crew battle I'm sure that the last 3 sheiks wouldn't get to play.

Same would go for Puff if you could find enough puffs. All you really need is Mango, Hbox, King, Darc, Soft, Hyuga and it's pretty much done.


As for the overall Match-up vs Samus I think Hugs is overrated dispite being the Best Samus. He's not good at ALL the match-ups. He just happens to be really good vs Fox/Falco and C.Falcon and since those are the Most popular 3 he usually does great. He kinda reminds me of the Samus version of Ka-Master. They are both really good vs Fast fallers with their characters. I know a few Samus players that may not overall be better than hugs but are surely better at fighting them.

With that said it would never go farther then 55-45 no matter what. Marth is just too fast.

 

[Winston]

2.) There is no way Luigi is 30:70 vs. Marth, Luigi probably does the best amongst all of the Mario bros.

real talk indeed.

 

[HugS™]

All I'll say about Marth vs Sheik is if you were to have a 10 Marth vs 10 Sheiks crew battle I'm sure that the last 3 sheiks wouldn't get to play.

Same would go for Puff if you could find enough puffs. All you really need is Mango, Hbox, King, Darc, Soft, Hyuga and it's pretty much done.


As for the overall Match-up vs Samus I think Hugs is overrated dispite being the Best Samus. He's not good at ALL the match-ups. He just happens to be really good vs Fox/Falco and C.Falcon and since those are the Most popular 3 he usually does great. He kinda reminds me of the Samus version of Ka-Master. They are both really good vs Fast fallers with their characters. I know a few Samus players that may not overall be better than hugs but are surely better at fighting them.

With that said it would never go farther then 55-45 no matter what. Marth is just too fast.

LoL I don't get it. When you play against the best players in the world, you're going to lose to a variety of characters.

I beat top 5 marths, top 5 jigglies, top 5 peaches, top five Ice Climbers, top 5 sheiks. I guess my fox/falco matchups overshadow the rest, but I am well versed in most every useful matchup.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Just keep throwing shiek off and edgehog, and reverse up b/nair at higher percents.

Both of these don't start being effective till really late on. Marth's **** at edgeguarding Sheik when you consider how good he at it he normally is and how bad her recovery normally is.

Well you guys are certainly talkative.

This is what I've collected:

Fox 50/50?
Falco 55/45-60/40? (50/50?)
Falcon 45/55-50/50?
Jigglypuff (ranges all over the place; 55/45?)
Sheik 45/55-35-65 (;;>_> 40/60?)
Peach 55/45?
Samus 60/40?
Doc 60/40?
Mario 60/40?

Jiggs beats Marth 60:40. Horrible matchup, I no longer care enough to debate it because I've probably put about 25 posts into explaining why, look through my posts if you want reasoning.
Only other glaring issue is Peach only losing by 5. Armada being amazing in general and that being possibly his best matchup shouldn't change opinions.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Alright a few things.

1.) Doc does have dthrow -> fair on marth
2.) There is no way Luigi is 30:70 vs. Marth, Luigi probably does the best amongst all of the Mario bros.
3.) Sheik vs. Marth is in no way a 45:55 matchup, it's easily Marth's worst and those of you who say it's closer to even have never played a good Sheik.

real talk.

1) aiight, good to know. what percent does it start and stop working at?
2) luigi definitely doesn't.
3) and who the **** are you to say that? some random doc scrud?

Well you guys are certainly talkative.

This is what I've collected:

Fox 50/50?
Falco 55/45-60/40? (50/50?)
Falcon 45/55-50/50?
Jigglypuff (ranges all over the place; 55/45?)
Sheik 45/55-35-65 (;;>_> 40/60?)
Peach 55/45?
Samus 60/40?
Doc 60/40?
Mario 60/40?



Go hate on Marth in the Ganon board. D:



Strawhat is really good with tippering.

for falco, i agree that from my experiences its not a difficult match and i've beat falco's above my level in the MU (kels, tom R), but when i played against zhu i got the feeling that falco actually has a slight advantage on non-fd. m2k said the same thing when i talked to him at SCSYN3. All-in-all i call the match-up even, but i definitely don't think its marth's favor.

 

[Archangel]

LoL I don't get it. When you play against the best players in the world, you're going to lose to a variety of characters.

I beat top 5 marths, top 5 jigglies, top 5 peaches, top five Ice Climbers, top 5 sheiks. I guess my fox/falco matchups overshadow the rest, but I am well versed in most every useful matchup.

Ok I'll rephrase it. I've never seen you beat top 5 Marths, Top 5 Peaches or Top5 Sheiks. I'll give you IC's I've seen u play them but I don't care about IC's as a character...their gay. Same vs Puff. I wouldn't watch you verses Puff tbh I'd probably fall asleep.

Don't take it personal though. I'm not calling you out I've just not seen you do it. At least not since 08-010 since I've known who you are. Your good but your playstyle isn't the most entertaining for Samus but effective. I'll always prefer west......I miss west....*cries*

ANYWAYS. Since Hugs is here I gotta know what do you think of Marth vs Samus based on your experience? 70-30.

 

[OverLord]

I don't think we need a compromise for the Sheik match-up when just ONE person said 35-65.

It's just crazy and doesn't deserve recognition.

 

[Archangel]

I agree that 65-35 is too far a swing. I think 60-40 is the average level from scrub too. higher level is 45-55. Max level assuming it's M2K vs Amsah it's about even.(I would pay to see them play in tournament. The friendlies at Pound4 were too good.)

 

[OverLord]

yeah, I can agree.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Are we really gonna say Falcon 45-55? Anyone else just fine with calling it even? Top Marths seem to do fine against Falcons...IB beat Hax, PPU/Falcomist beat SS, ARC beat Darkrain, etc..I know thats circumstantial evidence but nothing I've seen from the matchup really pushes it hard one way or the other.

I don't think we need a compromise for the Sheik match-up when just ONE person said 35-65.

It's just crazy and doesn't deserve recognition.

I said high-end its 35-65; as in the worst the matchup can possibly be argued to be. For the record, its not crazy-talk at all, I believe thats what Cactuar believes in fact, and I hear hes got a pretty good Marth.

I don't actually think its 35-65, but 40-60.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

From my experience its not an even match-up, m2k hates the match-up because its so bad, and recently bob$ has made a post expressing his change of opinion on the match-up.

 

[Druggedfox]

@Spamarrows... you're right about the crew thing, but honestly can you even name 10 high level marth players (much less marth's that know the matchup?)

The best marth nowadays (not counting m2k) seems to be IB, and watching him play the sheik matchup makes me cry. It's really apparent that he's not good at it.

Also, the reason I cited Hugs vs marth is because he talked to m2k about the matchup specifically and learned how to play it by talking to him. I think if you talk to the best marth player in the world about a specific matchup, and work on playing it, and you're probably the best samus player... chances are you know it better than most =P

 

[Niko45]

I think Falco does a little bit better than Fox against Marth. The biggest difference is that Marth has an amazing CC game on Fox where as Falco's dair snuffs that. To say lasers don't do anything is a little bit of an exaggeration. They do force Marth to move more robotically and predictably. I mean, it's not like good falcos actually give up on lasering Marth. I also think with the change to pound 4 rules it kind of hurts Fox a bit, making Stadium a CP and taking away some gay CPs Fox could have taken advantage of. Falco is actually really good on all the stages that Marth is good on and then some (still Marth adv on YS and FD tho), which is why from a tourney format perspective I think Falco matches up better with Marth than Fox does.

Marth vs Falcon is even overall, but varies greatly depending on stage. CF has some nice CP options vs Marth (DL64, Brinstar, KJ64), but I only really feel that Brinstar is absolutely terrible to the point where you might want to not use Marth (ie ban it).

otg with the real talk

 

[Archangel]

@Spamarrows... you're right about the crew thing, but honestly can you even name 10 high level marth players (much less marth's that know the matchup?)

The best marth nowadays (not counting m2k) seems to be IB, and watching him play the sheik matchup makes me cry. It's really apparent that he's not good at it.

1.Falcomist
2.Bob$
3.Strawhat
4.EK
5.Diakanos
6.PewPewU
7.Full Metal
8.HBK
9.Dart
10.Taj

Have you not seen my Legacy Vids?

I tell you what If you name 10 high level sheiks not counting Amsah/M2K I'll name 10 more

I've been Watching Marth vs Sheik since before alot of you owned a copy of Melee. People always look at join dates and base their whole approach to you on that. It's ashame.

 

[JBM falcon08]

I can give an explanation if need be. Just putting my opinion out there.

Marth vs Falco 50/50
Marth vs Fox 50/50
Marth vs Puff 50/50
Marth vs Sheik 45/55 (could be closer to 60/40, depends on how gay sheik is)
Marth vs Peach 55/45
Marth vs Falcon 55/45 (The callout)
Marth vs ICs 55/45 maybe 60/40
Marth vs Samus 60/40 (maybe worse)
Marth vs Ganon 55/45
Marth vs Doc 60/40
Marth vs Pika 55/45

 

[OverLord]

lol that's right. xD I play since 2002. LOL

anyway,

It's true that Falcon-Marth is very stage-dependant, but if you think that Marth does well just on Random Stages, and Falcon got at least 2 CPs out of the Random, then we can argue about the point that Falcon has more stages and feel more comfortable than Marth.

I'd say 45-55 just 'cause of this. But yeah, you can say that if Marth is good and knows what to do, it's pretty even. So i'm ok with 50-50 on the MU Chart, if there is consensus.

@DruggedFox:

I remember some vids from I.B. playing VERY good vs Sheik :O
I think they're a bit old, but correct me if I'm wrong.


@JBM falcon08:

Pika-Marth is kinda bad for Pika. Don't rely on Axe too much, is just one playing very good. Pika can't essentially do much.

 

[Winston]

2) luigi definitely doesn't.

Sveet, are you so sure about this because you've played vs. and easily beaten good Luigi players?

 

[JBM falcon08]

Yeah your right.

Tbh i don't think marth has too much trouble but axe makes me kinda scared to play marth.

I guess when you factor in actual cps that falcon players could use, marth is at a disadvantage, but when it comes to neutrals i like to think he does better on all of them.

So if we are going to consider CPS, wouldn't that make marth at a disadvantage to fox, falco, puff, sheik, falcon?

Because i know that all those charcters outplay marth on brinstar and RC.

 

[Armada]

Blistering Speed: Thanks man =).

And yeah that´s true.
Seriously in the beginning everyone played Marth against me because Marth>Peach.

I have play that matchup so much so i think people have a bad opinion because of that.

Marth have 60-40 against Peach.

And overall i wanna say people underestimate Marth because not that many playing him atm.

Its always like this when a char is i the shadow people underestimate that char.
People have to try too look at the game with new eyes and don´t just see what people are playing and if player 1 beat player 2.

 

[Druggedfox]

No offense to ANY of those marth players (I really don't mean to offend, this is just my personal opinion)...

I don't really think that list consists of many high level players if we're talking true international level play...

Compared to the general melee population those are all pretty good players, but at a high tournament level those are the mediocre players: neither the best, nor the worst, of those that get into brackets.

The reason I didn't include m2k is that he considers himself a sheik main, btw. Additionally, no offense to Fullmetal (GA represent =D) but if he's being included in your list of 10 high level marth players... then I'm not sure what you consider to be "high level".

I really wasn't basing anything off your join date; the list you provided only further assures me that there aren't 10 high level marth players, as sad as it is to say. And I did watch Legacy

Links to IB vs sheik doing well please =D (I'm just basing off of apex =/)

 

[Niko45]

Man, m2k vs amsah FRIENDLIES makes Marth vs Sheik look even!

Oh wait, but then there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHPiv90eQDc

I guess M2K forgot to CC in that one!

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

@ Hugs/Armada: Can you guys give your in-depth opinions on the Marth/Samus-Peach matchup? Like, what you guys think each character has over the other, and what options they have? I feel like I have a hard time understanding those matchups without having played either of you, especially v. Samus. You guys are so far ahead of the other players of your character (no offense to Vanz and spaceballs) that I think you guys have the most informed opinion of anyone.

To say lasers don't do anything is a little bit of an exaggeration. They do force Marth to move more robotically and predictably.

I'd argue they do the same for Falco.

But yeah, it was an exaggeration lol.

 

[HugS™]

Ok I'll rephrase it. I've never seen you beat top 5 Marths, Top 5 Peaches or Top5 Sheiks. I'll give you IC's I've seen u play them but I don't care about IC's as a character...their gay. Same vs Puff. I wouldn't watch you verses Puff tbh I'd probably fall asleep.

Don't take it personal though. I'm not calling you out I've just not seen you do it. At least not since 08-010 since I've known who you are. Your good but your playstyle isn't the most entertaining for Samus but effective. I'll always prefer west......I miss west....*cries*

ANYWAYS. Since Hugs is here I gotta know what do you think of Marth vs Samus based on your experience? 70-30.

LoL I totally understand. I haven't been to a national in a long time, so a lot of things I do get overlooked.

I guess you could name the top 5 marths/peaches/sheiks and I'll tell you if I've ever beaten them. Idk if it'd apply between now and 08/2010. I've only been to one tournament between now and then, and I've only played m2k.

Anyways, I believe the matchup is 60/40 in marth's favor. I mean, I don't think I need to get into it. Whatever you all know about fighting Samus is probably correct. Except, from the Samus angle, the matchup relies heavily on baiting and countering. That leads to a pretty uphill matchup, though it also makes it very winnable.

Very vague, I know, but I guess if more specific questions come up, I can try to answer those in a more specific way.

 

[Armada]

TheCrimsonBlur:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226822

I just read that thread and that´s amazing.
60-40 sounds good and everything they are saying in the matchup text is really good.

But maybe thats too much why Marth is good in the matchup and not what Peach have.
If you wanna know more just say it and i will try to help you =).

 

[Archangel]

words

You still haven't posted 10 high level sheiks players. I consider high level as simply being able to make it to finals at a tournament. Anything else beyond that is just...something else. I just want you to name some sheiks aside from M2K and Amsah. anyway I'll name some other marths Just for the hell of it. Ranging from good to very good.

11.Tai
12.Makenshi
13.Azen(appearently still plays)
14.Ice
15.Dark Sonic
16.Neko
17.Sveet(he's pretty good.
18.Booshk
19.Mango(coming out of retirement to play marth doesn't really count)
20.Tink
21.Ty
22.Tec0(main's marth and sheik so idk)
23.Tani
24.The Newb(has a pretty good sheik game)
25.IB
26.Broly
27.G$
28.Jinto
29.Dj Mirror
30.Skratch
31.KFC

I'm sure you can pick out a decent amount of Marths from these if you've seen them all.
I wish I could include myself in this list. I haven't earned it yet. Alright your turn.

Sveet, are you so sure about this because you've played vs. and easily beaten good Luigi players?

Based on My experience it's actually really much closer Then Doc or Mario if you play it correctly as Luigi. Friend of mine is a good Luigi who use to play with some florida smashers like dark falchion(Marth). Since he moved back to DE after college we've played the Match-up THOUSANDS of times and even though I know how to fight Luigi well enough now. People who aren't as experienced usually lose to him dispite being better Marths than me.

This for instance is what happens usually: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viBK_45Mu_k
keep in mind this was recorded like 2 AM though...

Still based on My own personal Matches against Luigi's I'd say at Luigi's absolute best it's still 55-45 in Marths Favor.

Aside from myself Mango and Green Mario are the only ones I know of that have done well vs Marth and actually ****ed them up at times. I played Mario about 4 years and I learned alot about what Mario can do to Marth from Kyle's. Still it's pretty much the same thing as Luigi though. at best the Match up is 45-55 but 60-40 is More likely simply because not enough Mario's or Luigi's can learn play it right and it'll always be an uphill fight.


@Armada You are in an interesting situation. You have a chance to re-invent a match-up all on your own the same way Players like Mango's Puff changed Match-ups and Hug's Samus.

@Hugs Your so ****ing boring to watch I can only imagine playing against you . I would love to though if we're ever at the same event. That sig is hella funny!!!!! I agree though.

 

[stelzig]

Man, m2k vs amsah FRIENDLIES makes Marth vs Sheik look even!

Oh wait, but then there's this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHPiv90eQDc

I guess M2K forgot to CC in that one!

Same sheik OverLord used as an example for why he thinks the matchup isn't that bad.

 

[OverLord]

@ Niko45:

u mad.

First of all I didn't use M2K vs Amsah friendlies as an example 'cause Amsah is known for not taking friendlies so seriously. Not saying he sandbags, just he plays more to have fun. You can say when he plays really concentrate by the fact that he doesn't talk. In friendly he uses to say lot of things while playing.

Second: M2K is a very good overall player, but he himself said multiple times that he is not so good in Marth-Sheik MU.

Third: Dahean is better than M2K vs Sheiks, and this is proved by his matches against OverTriforce, the same who 3stocked M2K.

And guess why? OverTriforce is probably the best at this MU. I don't think any Marth out of Dahean can do **** against him. Just too good against Marths.

@ Armada: thank you man, the last line from your first post is freakin' TRUTH.

@ DruggedFox: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lMPh552CaY&feature=related

a bit old, but they're nice matches. There are like 6/7 matches.

@ SpamArrows: don't forget to add me in the list :D xD

 

[Druggedfox]

I love how people who think marth vs sheik is in sheik's favor by a lot always link me to overtriforce vs m2k. It's so funny that they think if they've found one match in the history of m2k vs sheik where he plays badly, its all of a sudden proof.

News Flash: There are more vids of m2k doing perfectly fine against sheik than there are of sheik ****** him.

@Spamarrows:

I don't care how many mediocre marth players there are, I care about how many high level marths there are. Naming 20 marth players doesn't mean much to me. The only sheiks I would have named, had I been asked are:

1. M2k (sheik main, and plays predominantely sheik in tournament)
2. Amsah
3. Tope
4. Vanz
5. Lucien? Despite beating Zhu, lucky, AND SS, I consider debatable because I have yet to see consistent performance.

Anyone else? Unless I'm missing someone major... I wouldn't even include anyone else.

Doesn't really matter though, I just don't think many marth players play marth correctly nowadays, so I hate on them =]

 

[MDU]

Can someone enlighten me on this? What exactly is the matchup against Jiggs?

Personally, I think it is in Jiggs favour since she can punish, but from the chart, it seems that it is in Marth's favour. The reason I think its in Jiggs favour is because both players have to play really patient.

It's obvious that aggro marth loses to Jiggs. So we have to look at patient marth. The problem with patient marth is that you now have less opportunities to hit Jiggs than with aggro marth (remember we are mostly tilting and retreating fairing). And when you do get a hit in you do a not so impressive amount of damage. If you try and "combo" off that hit, you are turning into aggro marth and therefore, Jiggs can now punish you.

So in essence, for the matchup of marth vs jiggs to be in marths favour, marth's spacing options and ability to out range puff must yield more stocks and be more effective than the edgeguarding and rest punishing and comboing of puff. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world where Marth has an impenetrable wall of fairs. And so a Puff is always going to find a way round your defence. No one is perfect and neither are Marth mains.

People often use http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCPGgZ_3ak this to show how the marth vs jiggs matchup should be played. But the marth player LOSES THE MATCH. And then goes on to win the set with Fox. I may be wrong, but doesn't this show that even if Marth plays really really well and does everythings right, prolonging the game and winning by attrition just leads to more opportunities to being rested. This means you still lose. Just my 2 cents. As i said, I'm not a top player so my opinion may not be valid, but I think there is no harm in voicing my opinion.

 

[Mind Trick]

I don't care how many mediocre marth players there are, I care about how many high level marths there are. Naming 20 marth players doesn't mean much to me. The only sheiks I would have named, had I been asked are:

1. M2k (sheik main, and plays predominantely sheik in tournament)
2. Amsah
3. Tope
4. Vanz
5. Lucien? Despite beating Zhu, lucky, AND SS, I consider debatable because I have yet to see consistent performance.

OverTriforce, Adam and Ice are probably all better than the the number 3-5 on your list.

 

[otg]

oh man I'm about to have some fun.

1) aiight, good to know. what percent does it start and stop working at?

The % range is very large, probably starts as low as 60% and goes all the way to like 120+% (maybe even higher). It doesn't start to KO til probably 100%+ (before the throw) give or take a few % depending on the stage, the positioning of where the grab is landed and DI.

Realistically tho, Doc will not be landing grabs on Marth too frequently, and he needs to land a grab within the % range where it connects and KOs. Most of his kills will be from Dsmash and edgeguards.... unless the Marth is really bad at the matchup like almost all marths are, at which point you'll be seeing a lot of dthrow -> fair.

2) luigi definitely doesn't.

Aight I'm only doing this once, I hate reading long posts and I don't like making them.

I'm curious what really good Docs/Marios/Luigi's you've played and beaten to make your basis for some of your matchup ratios. Having played all these matchups many times on both sides (minus Luigi vs. Marth as Marth) with many of Tristates quality players (I can list them if you're curious) I genuinely feel Luigi does the best out of all three. Am I saying he wins? No. Am I saying its close to even? No. It's definitely at best a 60:40 in Marth's favor.

Marth beats all three of them by getting them above him and ****** them as they miserably attempt to come back down to the ground, and then he exploits all three of there terrible recoveries in pretty much the same way.

The one thing Luigi has is the most range of the three, with the best spacing on the ground with wd ftilt (so he doesn't get zoned out as easily) and probably the most practical aerial moveset of the three for wracking damage up real fast and getting Marth offstage. And the best part is he doesn't need a grab like Doc to setup combos or finishers, and he doesn't need to worry about perfect spacing like Mario to get Marth offstage.

I'm definitely forgetting a lot, but that's what I got for now. Anyone else can feel free to add on to this.

3) and who the **** are you to say that? some random doc scrud?

You're in no position to call me a scrub. You live in one of the worst regions of the country and you don't even place that well (I look through all the tourney results every sunday). Not to say I'm amazing or anything, but I tend to place 9th or 13th out of like 60+ people at the regionals in arguably the best or 2nd best region in the country and I only lose to the really nasty players and it's never free (my last set with chops every game went down to last stock last hit). I also live 10 minutes from all the **** NY smashers (PC, Vanz, jesus, chops, dj etc) and play them on a weekly basis.

And I don't just play Doc, all of my top tiers are really good and I play a large majority of the cast at a high level. Come out to ROM3 and I'll MM you any of my characters vs. your Marth for however much you want. We can discuss more over aim if you're interested.