Let's take a new approach to this MK topic...

[Hylian]

Aside from some minor squabbling this thread has been pretty good so far.

I think I've tried almost everything for GW. It's gotten to the point where M2K told me I shouldn't use GW vs MK . I've been down this road before.

Good luck guys.

 

[Master Raven]

Good thread! I share Dojo's sentiments. I would like to see some of these matchups Snake/Olimar/ZSS/Bowser/DK/etc. further explored. I myself am pretty skeptical of Olimar having at least an even matchup on MK though, but let's see what happens.

I think I've tried almost everything for GW. It's gotten to the point where M2K told me I shouldn't use GW vs MK . I've been down this road before.

It's good to see you put all the possible effort you could into the matchup at least. Who will you use against MK from now on then?

 

[DRaGZ]

There's certainly nothing R.O.B. can do. His best shot at doing anything significant is running away and projectiling and getting MK off thy back with f-tilt, d-tilt, d-smash, or retreating sh aerial (usually f-air).

But MK is just so fast.

And I don't even have to mention Ganondorf, although I just did.

 

[Napilopez]

How to win with Sonics vs MK.

Aerial Spin charge double hit, to jump cancelled aerial, to Neutral B.

Did i mention that neutral B is when you have a final smash on you? =P

Anyways, I like the direction of this thread. Sonic is by no means an MK counter, but I don't think the matchup is that bad, lol.

I think olimar has potential against MK, but maybe thats just because I think Oli is the most annoying char in the game to fight XD.

 

[Blad01]

Falco, no. His aerials are pretty boss and his lasers can potentially pin down a Meta Knight stupid enough to not shield. However, it's still not enough to overcome him significantly enough: MK just needs to get Falco off-stage (which is relatively easy) and then Falco is dead.

Yes, but this is the same with every other opponent. Furthermore, Falco side B can get back to the stage, if he varies a little (on stage, hang the ledge, cancel...).

I think that MK vs Falco is even. Lasers, Chaingrab, Phantasm, and Boost Smash for the kill.

 

[Niko_K]

It is way too early to call a ban on MK. Recently MK's haven't even been winning first place at tournaments and a very diverse selection of characters have placed top 8 (Edrees 7th at HOBO 11 Peach Only.)

Instead of worrying about banning MK, we should be focusing on playing against him at an optimal level. SDI'ing all his multi-hit moves properly, and if your aerials are fast enough (Peach's Nair), aerial inbetween multi hit moves (since there is insignificant hitstun.)

Also with the discovery Ulevo has made which makes characters recoverys more efficient by using an aerial to slow your momentum, MK is going to lose killing power.

At low level play, obviously the ease of use being MK is going to effect the overall result of matches. Though at high level play where players are required to learn the in's and out's of each character they are fighting, the ease of use for MK dissapates and you have to play a lot more smart than you normally would at lower level (quite obvious.) I play a pretty good peach and don't have TOO much trouble beating MK (with the excepton of M2K 2 stocking me >.<). Though there were so many decisions that could have been altered to sway the ending result of the match, in my favor. It's whether or not you are capable of seeing these openings and staying safe the entire match.

I'd like to get into a big detailed write up about this but I really need to head out to school.

Though if lower mid tier characters are standing a chance (and beating) MK's in tournaments, he is NOT viable for a ban at this point.

He is definitely far from Akuma.

 

[Sephiroth27]

Anyone can beat Metaknight with any character as long as they "see openings" and "stay safe." So really this is becoming more of a "players need to get better at the game in general" rather than "Metaknight is a broken character" topic. If that's where this is leading then the entire "Should Metaknight be banned?" debate was completely pointless. This isn't about Metaknight dominance/matchups anymore, this is about all of us being as good as Azen. Well not really, but basically the fact that Metaknight is considerably better than the vast majority of the other characters is being ignored now and "getting better" is where it's at.

So that means the idea of "banning" has taken a new role. Can I make a poll about if we should ban Azen or not?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

He has a strong ground game, strong aerial game, amazing recovery, insane gimping abilities, over the top priority, and a nice set of kill moves.

The bold ones confuse me. I really don't see it. I am a noob, but I really would like to know what moves are intended so that I can up my MK game. The only kill moves I see are the FSmash, which appears to be really bad and laggy, and the Loop, which is hard to hit with and still needs high procents. Also, I can't stand his ground game... What am I missing here?

 

[Lore]

I'm really happy to see this thread. Know why? I have found someone who actually has almost the same opinion as me. Woot.

Still, no one can deny how much MK is overpowered, but like he said, we can probably get several characters to match him, to an extent. From there, it's all about people getting better at brawl in general.

 

[Master Raven]

MK's best KO moves are Dsmash, Nair, Fsmash, Glide Attack, Shuttle Loop (you want to sweetspot aerial ones around the middle portion) and sweetspotted Utilt.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Diddy, no. His entire game relies on an opponent getting ***** on the floor. MK can just go in the air and do his business there, where he will outclass Diddy in every way. (this is certainly what R.O.B. does).

Diddy's Fair/Uairs are no joke. But the class of Diddy's anti-air game is his Utilt, which beats out MK's Dair. MK only has ONE approach option against Diddy, and it is beat by the Utilt. Any horizontal approaches are negated and ***** by bananas, which leaves simply the one horizontal approach of trying to spam Dairs until something hits. This is a match up where the Diddy Kong players will simply continue to improve, because they have far more tools and versatility than MK.

 

[LeeHarris]

Are you guys ****ting me?

All I ****ing practice against is MK! The entire metagame revolves around "how do I get around the MK players in tournament." Now that I play MK (it's by far the easiest route for me now), the only character left to study is MK himself!

And I don't want to hear about NYC and places like that. If you live in a region dominated by a Donkey Kong, then you obviously don't have a problem with any good Metaknight players.

Diddy's Fair/Uairs are no joke. But the class of Diddy's anti-air game is his Utilt, which beats out MK's Dair. MK only has ONE approach option against Diddy, and it is beat by the Utilt. Any horizontal approaches are negated and ***** by bananas, which leaves simply the one horizontal approach of trying to spam Dairs until something hits. This is a match up where the Diddy Kong players will simply continue to improve, because they have far more tools and versatility than MK.

You are delusional. Diddy continues to place worse and worse while MK gets better. MK has an amazing approach to Diddy. Run, shield, Run, shield. When Diddy approaches, use *insert broken attack here* and you have no problems. MK players (since there are so many) will quickly learn this matchup and destroy Diddy players.

 

[PhantomX]

It's not that it's dominated by DK so much that it's dominated by BUM.

 

[Ulevo]

One thing I think players also need to focus on more are using attacks with faster start up than Meta Knights DSmash in close quarters. Too many times have I see a Meta Knight go into a DSmash and kill a character because Meta Knight dodged a laggy move before, when they could have used a faster move to compensate. Standard A's I think are a very good remedy for this, and it will help to get you killed less often.

The battle isn't just approaching Meta Knight, it's knowing what to do once you're inside his range. That's where a lot of screw ups happen.

 

[Falconv1.0]

The fact that this so much discussion is being made to beat just one character is a bit of a problem for me, ehe.

MK is not some strange beast, he's just the best character. Unless you're character has some sort of a terrible match up with him, the match should go evenly. Even if MK is banned, your chances of winning wont go up, I guarantee it.


(Not supporting either side, just putting that out there._

 

[Iwan]

I stopped reading when i read "no one is openly trying to beat him"...and we're just complaining, etc....

People on both sides of this "debate" have put in tons of hours figuring out what works and what doesn't against metaknight. They still continue to look for things to do or ways to counter him every day lol.

The only difference is that of opinion, on whether banning him or not is better for this game competitively. Soooooo........

/thread?
*wills thread to end*
lol.

although.....nice "side" metaknight topic. NOICE.

 

[AlphaZealot]

You are delusional. Diddy continues to place worse and worse while MK gets better. MK has an amazing approach to Diddy. Run, shield, Run, shield. When Diddy approaches, use *insert broken attack here* and you have no problems. MK players (since there are so many) will quickly learn this matchup and destroy Diddy players.

This just goes to show that you have no idea how the match up work. Ask ANY competent MK player, MK loses on the ground to Diddy. All those MK's in Texas that place well will agree with me.

Dojo, do you agree that MK loses to Diddy on the ground?

What you are doing is applying a generic argument that, quite simply, doesn't work in this instance. Heck, you didn't even mention going in the air, which IS the only way MK can deal with Diddy. It would help if there were some competent Diddy players in Texas, I guess, because then you would see how wrong you are.

I'd bet I can get the majority of the top Diddy and MK players to agree that Diddy has the advantage over MK on the ground.

 

[ShadowLink84]

*agrees with AZ*
if this were true Sonic would have an advantage on Diddy.


Gotta figure a way tos teal the bananars

 

[PhantomX]

Diddy has advantage over pretty much everyone on the ground. However, competent shielding/dodging of his strings-of-attacks/grabs make the matchup a lot easier for those with good punishers.

 

[Praxis]

I hope this thread won't be closed, since it's much better than the other two.

I'm curious about Olimar and the other characters and I might pick them up and look at what they can do. On this occasion, I'd like to mention that Sheik can do a grab release -> slidilg usmash on MK (according to MK atomsk does it all the time). So you may look at her too.

...

Right now, I'm analysing Bowsers capabilities. I was really upset when people said he sucks, because he's a really good character. The more I use him, the more certain I am, that he belongs to High tier.
I've been using him more often against Meta Knight and the results are pleasing. I think he's surprisingly good against MK, although I need to test a lot more (I also think he's good against Snake but he obviously sucks vs Dedede).
Bowser has some useful tools against MK and if you ever use them properly, you'll find out why Bowser is so underrated. He is just really good. His ftilt beats every move of MK except the ftilt. It's use against the tornado is somewhat questionable. Sometimes they cancel each other out, sometimes Nado wins, sometimes Bowser ftilt wins. It has something to do with the range of both attacks. I have to figure out how it works. The tornado is a very strange move, especially when you look at ist priority.
Bowsers dtilt beats a lot of MKs moves too and is a good KO move, although I find myself using it too often to be a reliable KO moves.
Bowser has one of the most effective - if not the most effective - punishing options in the game. As soon as the opponent is open for a frew frames, the whole defense is a whole gamble situation, because you'll never know, whether Bowser will use the Koopa Claw, which you can't shield but spotdodge or whether he'll use the fortress, which you can't spotdodge but have to shield. Either way, once Bowser lands one of these hits it's a free 20% damage no matter which attacks he uses.
Fortress is absurdly useful in this battle, thanks to it's 6 invincibility frames. You can attack during MKs last frames of any attack you want to - Fortress will always win and deal good damage. And what's also important: It hives you a save recovery. Just play it smart. All you need is to time it right and MK won't be able to gimp you. It works even on Lylat Cruise and Rainbow Cruise, so MK won't even be able to counterpick Bowser. And a grab release at the edge gives Bowser a free fair, which is no less than a guaranteed KO in ~90% of the cases, even with good DI (I don't know yet, what's the minimum required % with perfect DI).

The other move I find very useful was the Flame Breath, even though it's very situational. The thing is, that either the Fire Breath or the Fortress will beat the Tornado if you use it fast enough. If MK is too close, it won't work but you can completely Shield it and use UpB very quickly to punish him.
I already figured out which of Bowsers moves beat MKs foretress.

Nado (approach) -> ftilt, Fire Breath
Nado (close range) -> shield to Fortress

The best thing is that if Bowser powershields MKs attacks, it's in most cases either a free Klaw or a free ftilt / dtilt. He can Shield dmsash (the only reliable finisher MK has against Bowser) and gets a guaranteed 20% from the Koopa Klaw. And 20% is about 1/4th of the dmg MK can take against Bowser. Every other move that follows might already be too much for MK, especially one of Bowsers smash attacks.
And of course I will also cover the grab release CG, that makes FD a potential counterpick. If you grab MK on the one side of FD @80% it's a guaranteed KO, since you can fair him off the screen after releasing him at the edge. In other words: All that Bowser needs to KO MK on FD is to land two Koopa Klaws, one Fortress and one Fire Breath to bring him to 80% and then he has to grab him (I'm working on grab options and setups atm to see how I can find effective options to grab MK).

Something, that's very important to me: You can always force MK to play on Final Destination with a lot of characters. Why is this?
Because on Castle Siege you can kill him without even dealing dmg to him. The 2nd stage is the key obviously, as you can just jump release him off the screen and there's nothing MK can do. Bowser just has to regrab him release him and regrab him again until he's KO.
That means, that the MK either has to ban FD, which means 0 death on Castle Siege or KO @80% on Final Destination.

Bowser has the advantage over MK on either stage. I haven't looked into other stages yet but I'll start working together with other Bowser players: Vex Kasrani, Flayl, MrEh and BurtonEarny.

We've already explored this a bit in WA. Bladewise seconds Bowser and uses him against all the MK's here (he does better this way than with Marth).

He went to Axis and DSF three-stocked him with MK.

Bowser does better than most, but against high level MK's, you're not going to be landing the grabs you want.

 

[Praxis]

The fact that this so much discussion is being made to beat just one character is a bit of a problem for me, ehe.

MK is not some strange beast, he's just the best character. Unless you're character has some sort of a terrible match up with him, the match should go evenly. Even if MK is banned, your chances of winning wont go up, I guarantee it.


(Not supporting either side, just putting that out there._

You're not understanding the argument then.

" Unless you're character has some sort of a terrible match up with him, the match should go evenly."

Virtually *everyone* has a bad matchup with him. The match will never go evenly.

 

[Tyrael64]

Lucario at least has a ghost of a chance of taking on MK. Ginormous lingering hitboxes and MK's lack of killpower and lack of a projectile make it possible for Lucario to turn the match around with one or two well-placed hits.

Some Lucarios have trouble when MK gets up in their face. Make no mistake, MK is very, very hard to fight, but for Lucario at least, it's do-able. Barely. D-air is a good Shuttle Loop counter, and Fsmash is a wall of blue flamey pain that's hard to get around.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this goes for a lot of characters. even it it only does 6% with no knockback, when you are in close with MK you have to use whatever moves you can to hit Mk be4 he hits you

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We've already explored this a bit in WA. Bladewise seconds Bowser and uses him against all the MK's here (he does better this way than with Marth).

He went to Axis and DSF three-stocked him with MK.

Am I supposed to laugh about this one?

Just to emphasize the key words a little more: "We already explored this a bit in WA. Bladewise seconds Bowser and uses him against all the MKs here ...
He went to Axis and DSF three stocked him with MK."

...

You know how hilarious that sounds? Some random West Coast player, who isn't even in the Top 10 on WC (I could easily name 10, perhaps 20 better ones), who only seconds Bowser loses to the 3rd best player in the USA. Big deal eh? But I suppose you're right. Just as much as Wario becoming a MK counter because Reflex beat m2ks MK -_-
One result =/= proof. DSF >>> Whoever this guy is called.

Bowser does better than most, but against high level MK's, you're not going to be landing the grabs you want.

Oh, you know that already? Of course. After all there are soooooooooooo many top level Bowsers out there.

 

[da K.I.D.]

emphasize is the word you should have used in the second sentance, not empathize.

 

[salaboB]

Oh, you know that already? Of course. After all there are soooooooooooo many top level Bowsers out there.

Is there even one good enough that you won't

One result =/= proof. DSF >>> Whoever this guy is called.

them if they lose?

If not, you may as well give up on proving Bowser >= MK for the time being, because you'll never be able to accept that it was disproven (Which is most likely).

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I hope it does..... :3


I find MK easier to play if you take the tank position. When you're attacking he can attack too OR be defensive. I was playing one as Sonic and just.....stood there. His options were...

1. Stand there
2. Running Grab
3. Shorthop aeiral
4 Dash Attack.
5. Tornado
6. Drill Rush
7. Dimensional Cape

My responses were
1. Still stand there
2. Jump and punish
3. Shield and punish (or if it was a retreating SHaerial I stood there)
4. Shield and punish
5. Shield and punish. (if he drifted away I just chased him down. You guys can't do that since your run speed is like... my walk speed but I hear AS is pretty neat.)
6. You have to be joking. Just... do whatever you want really.
7. Lulz. Punish.

IF you are REALLY paying attention you have JUST enough time to determine what he's doing. I basically stood at long/mid range and ripped into him. I got this to work JUST enough to do a match with Falcon where I still LOST but he was on his last life with mid damage.

MK seems to either tell you EXACTLY what he's going to do or if he DOESN'T do that his only option left is 1 other option. i.e. if he DOESN'T dash attack at a certain distance a dash grab is coming.

This stuff worked with SONIC I don't know quite how good Lucario is at punishing but I figure this could help a bit. It was still hard as hell but I went from getting 2 stocked to winning one, losing one and then losing with Falcon.

Interesting take on MK.

 

[Dojo]

Are you guys ****ting me?

All I ****ing practice against is MK! The entire metagame revolves around "how do I get around the MK players in tournament." Now that I play MK (it's by far the easiest route for me now), the only character left to study is MK himself!

And I don't want to hear about NYC and places like that. If you live in a region dominated by a Donkey Kong, then you obviously don't have a problem with any good Metaknight players.



You are delusional. Diddy continues to place worse and worse while MK gets better. MK has an amazing approach to Diddy. Run, shield, Run, shield. When Diddy approaches, use *insert broken attack here* and you have no problems. MK players (since there are so many) will quickly learn this matchup and destroy Diddy players.

If you have to feel that way, we don't need the help of pessimistic people. Continue with all you're arguments to ban him and how broken he is. We've already established the fact that we know.

This just goes to show that you have no idea how the match up work. Ask ANY competent MK player, MK loses on the ground to Diddy. All those MK's in Texas that place well will agree with me.

Dojo, do you agree that MK loses to Diddy on the ground?

What you are doing is applying a generic argument that, quite simply, doesn't work in this instance. Heck, you didn't even mention going in the air, which IS the only way MK can deal with Diddy. It would help if there were some competent Diddy players in Texas, I guess, because then you would see how wrong you are.

I'd bet I can get the majority of the top Diddy and MK players to agree that Diddy has the advantage over MK on the ground.

I would agree. For the simple fact of bananas, Diddy's don't necessarily have to apprach... They have it when it comes to the floor.

Lucario at least has a ghost of a chance of taking on MK. Ginormous lingering hitboxes and MK's lack of killpower and lack of a projectile make it possible for Lucario to turn the match around with one or two well-placed hits.

Some Lucarios have trouble when MK gets up in their face. Make no mistake, MK is very, very hard to fight, but for Lucario at least, it's do-able. Barely. D-air is a good Shuttle Loop counter, and Fsmash is a wall of blue flamey pain that's hard to get around.

Agreed. He's another character that hopefully we can work up there.











EDIT: Updated 2nd post. Time to get started.

 

[salaboB]

I would agree. For the simple fact of bananas, Diddy's don't necessarily have to apprach... They have it when it comes to the floor.

I may be missing something really obvious here, but what stops MK from picking up whichever of Diddy's bananas are interfering with his ground approach and then using it to lead in to his own counterattack?

If Diddy is refusing to approach doesn't that leave it open for MK to? Can a skilled Diddy really apply that much pressure from camping?

 

[Dojo]

Diddy has alot of options on the floor. Camping isn't the only thing and probably not the most effective.

There's more to the approach of MK in this match then LeeHarris said of "Run, Shield, Run, Shield." Diddy's ground game is overall one of the fastest and easiest to link strings of moves together. He has stage control with his bananas and a strong pressure game to follow up with it.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I hope it does..... :3


I find MK easier to play if you take the tank position. When you're attacking he can attack too OR be defensive. I was playing one as Sonic and just.....stood there. His options were...

1. Stand there
2. Running Grab
3. Shorthop aeiral
4 Dash Attack.
5. Tornado
6. Drill Rush
7. Dimensional Cape

My responses were
1. Still stand there
2. Jump and punish
3. Shield and punish (or if it was a retreating SHaerial I stood there)
4. Shield and punish
5. Shield and punish. (if he drifted away I just chased him down. You guys can't do that since your run speed is like... my walk speed but I hear AS is pretty neat.)
6. You have to be joking. Just... do whatever you want really.
7. Lulz. Punish.

IF you are REALLY paying attention you have JUST enough time to determine what he's doing. I basically stood at long/mid range and ripped into him. I got this to work JUST enough to do a match with Falcon where I still LOST but he was on his last life with mid damage.

MK seems to either tell you EXACTLY what he's going to do or if he DOESN'T do that his only option left is 1 other option. i.e. if he DOESN'T dash attack at a certain distance a dash grab is coming.

This stuff worked with SONIC I don't know quite how good Lucario is at punishing but I figure this could help a bit. It was still hard as hell but I went from getting 2 stocked to winning one, losing one and then losing with Falcon.

You guys might want to read this post. It ISN'T from a previous post in the discussion, rather, it's something Terios was using to explain the MK matchup in another thread altogether.

 

[Mortimer]

Diddy has alot of options on the floor. Camping isn't the only thing and probably not the most effective.

There's more to the approach of MK in this match then LeeHarris said of "Run, Shield, Run, Shield." Diddy's ground game is overall one of the fastest and easiest to link strings of moves together. He has stage control with his bananas and a strong pressure game to follow up with it.

What's stopping MK from grabbing Diddy's bananas from the air? Is it just too difficult to pull off reliably?

 

[M@v]

i think people have been overlooking Falco WAY too much. Honestly I think Falco does just fine on the ground against MK, and being the only person that can chaingrab MK is a huge plus. The problem with Falco is similar to snake: Once your off the stage your screwed over. It seems Falco can almost do nothing stop being edge guarded right off into oblivion.

 

[Volacide]

What about Falco? Why does he fail so hard against MK?

Falco has:

• Good ground speed
• Good tilts
• Good grabs
• Very good aerials (except when compared to MK)
• Lazers to rip through the 'nado and cause general frustration
• Phantasms for spacing

Perhaps I'm just stating the obvious/being oblivious to some glaring truth. (I am just a beginner after all)

But those seem to give Falco at least a little chance in the match-up.

What are the glaring flaws that make Falco so easy to deal with when playing as MK?

 

[Praxis]

Am I supposed to laugh about this one?

Just to emphasize the key words a little more: "We already explored this a bit in WA. Bladewise seconds Bowser and uses him against all the MKs here ...
He went to Axis and DSF three stocked him with MK."

...

You know how hilarious that sounds? Some random West Coast player, who isn't even in the Top 10 on WC (I could easily name 10, perhaps 20 better ones), who only seconds Bowser loses to the 3rd best player in the USA. Big deal eh? But I suppose you're right. Just as much as Wario becoming a MK counter because Reflex beat m2ks MK -_-
One result =/= proof. DSF >>> Whoever this guy is called.



Oh, you know that already? Of course. After all there are soooooooooooo many top level Bowsers out there.

A) He has developed his Bowser specifically for the MK matchup. He uses him only on MK's and has beaten most of WA's MK's, including Eggz.

B) Bladewise is top of WA PR, and placed 17th at AXIS, losing only to DSF and Edrees.

I'm not talking about a random here. He's a good player who's developed a very strong secondary. Would you call DSF's Snake laughable because he mains MK? Mew2King's Dedede because he mains MK?


My point is that there has yet to be a Bowser player beating any of the notable MK's, and good players have tried. I don't see it as a potential counter. It might be a matchup that is expanded upon, but I don't think it'll ever be better than even and I doubt it'll ever even get to that point (MK destroys Bowser offstage and has so many more options).

 

[PhantomX]

What about Falco? Why does he fail so hard against MK?

Falco has:

• Good ground speed
• Good tilts
• Good grabs
• Very good aerials (except when compared to MK)
• Lazers to rip through the 'nado and cause general frustration
• Phantasms for spacing

Perhaps I'm just stating the obvious/being oblivious to some glaring truth. (I am just a beginner after all)

But those seem to give Falco at least a little chance in the match-up.

What are the glaring flaws that make Falco so easy to deal with when playing as MK?

One word:

Planking

 

[salaboB]

One word:

Planking

Has Falco been found effective even against MKs that don't plank?

 

[Dojo]

To some extent, yes he does.

The matchup is another close one we won't overlook.

 

[Volacide]

One word:

Planking

Unfortunately I have no idea what that means. Please explain.

 

[AlphaZealot]

What's stopping MK from grabbing Diddy's bananas from the air? Is it just too difficult to pull off reliably?

Yes. Diddy can play tight with his bananas, but on top of that, even if you DO get control of them, Diddy can regain control quite easily because his dash attack is simply ****. Your are saying what people have always been saying about Diddy, except its never actually happened in real life for strong Diddy players because they know how to keep control of the banana/s. You may get a banana here or there in a match, but ultimately Diddy will have control probably 80% of the time, if not more. MK grabbing bananas from the air is his best bet, but LeeHarris doesn't even believe MK needs to go to the air, so we it wasn't addressed in that context. Per air grabs, chances are once the MK grabs one or two bananas the Diddy will catch on and time the throws better or simply dribble away and wait for MK to land (or will fire the peanut gun then throw the banana). Diddy has a crap load of options.