Dojo
Smash Champion
Diddy has a much easier time regaining control and linking moves up directly after that.
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Let's take a new approach to this MK topic...
- Thread starter Dojo
- Start date
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By the time MK earns them, you should have given yourself a head start with the banana advantage. Then it'd be even until he loses it, at which point you can regain/increase your lead until he earns them again.
Okay, that's where I was going with this. So even though MK can gain some banana control, Diddy has enough of an edge to take it back away from him?
Is there no way an MK can become better at banana control to keep the edge long enough to capitalize on it?
Is there no way an MK can become better at banana control to keep the edge long enough to capitalize on it?
Not if you want to beat everyone not named Diddy... since they're also improving banana usage over time, so you'd have to spend as much practice as they do just on bananas. While still practicing anti-Snake, Yoshi, Olimar, and other char tactics.
You'd like... need to go super hardcore smash. And have that be your only source of income...
streetracr77
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 25, 2008
- Messages
- 488
I realized there are so many MK threads on the tactical discussion. I think we should come up with a decision and end this big war. I'm not neutral, I am leaning more towards the banning him side.
¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯
Smash Legend
I can help out with what I know about Falco Dojo, but what should I be looking for/posting?
Dojo
Smash Champion
What gives you the most trouble fighting MK?
How can you work around this?
What options are giving to you from there?
What haven't you tried?
Look for matches of some of the best MK/Falco matches, and try to break them down.
See how the Falco was killed. If there was possible ways to avoid it. If he could've set something up better. If he had other decisions. Stuff like that.
AZ, I'm gonna be breaking down you vs Inui's matches in this manner. I understand the circumstances of the tourney experience of you two and that jazz, but it's a very strong representation of both characters and hopefully something we can build upon at least as a start.
How can you work around this?
What options are giving to you from there?
What haven't you tried?
Look for matches of some of the best MK/Falco matches, and try to break them down.
See how the Falco was killed. If there was possible ways to avoid it. If he could've set something up better. If he had other decisions. Stuff like that.
AZ, I'm gonna be breaking down you vs Inui's matches in this manner. I understand the circumstances of the tourney experience of you two and that jazz, but it's a very strong representation of both characters and hopefully something we can build upon at least as a start.
gunterrsmash01
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2007
- Messages
- 2,533
Great thread Dojo.
I will make a thread on the Falco boards on advice/tips to playing Metaknight.
I will make a thread on the Falco boards on advice/tips to playing Metaknight.
Nitrix
Smash Ace
Brainstorming ways to handle MK......
Didn't some people think that Bowser was a counter? I heard he had a throw to D-Tilt combo or something that finished him off reliably at 100.
Maybe Toon Link is a counter? Would all of those projectiles combined with a liberal use of Z-Air be enough to thwart MK's approach? TL seems like he has potential.
Didn't some people think that Bowser was a counter? I heard he had a throw to D-Tilt combo or something that finished him off reliably at 100.
Maybe Toon Link is a counter? Would all of those projectiles combined with a liberal use of Z-Air be enough to thwart MK's approach? TL seems like he has potential.
Pretty much, because you can't hold two at once and one will disappear fairly quickly, meaning Diddy just gets to pull a banana for free again. And this is assuming Diddy make no attempt what so ever for regaining control of bananas, because, you know, Diddy doesn't have one of the best dash attacks in the game.
Dojo: go crazy.
bludhoundz
Smash Ace
The MK would have to either have Diddy as a secondary or main Diddy and secondary MK.
Why? Because Diddy deals with banana control in EVERY match. MK only has to deal with it against Diddy. The only way to be as good as a Diddy main at banana control is to BE one.
Either that or have tons and tons of Diddy v. MK experience (preferably from both sides).
Now I don't believe that Diddy is a MK counter. But Diddy is definitely better at banana control. Also his glide toss length is really good because it can be used to link tosses together, whereas MK's is really only good for closing the gap, because it goes really far. His dash attack is also very good for banana chaining.
MrEh
Smash Hero
Yeah, that strategy is somewhat similar. Grab him, chaingrab him to the ledge, and attack accordingly. If by off chance Meta forces a ground release, Bowser can hit him with the Dtilt.
At least Yoshi has his manly pivot grabs to grab Meta with. Bowser on the other hand, has to rely on shieldgrabs and good ol' fashioned trickery in order to land the grab on Meta. It's difficult to pull off, but it's one of Bowser's many powerful tools to utilize against Meta.
Yeah, but OoS don't win the game. In all fairness though, Bowser's OoS options to beat a solid amount of Meta's BS.
No arguments there.
That's a solid analysis for why Meta Knight doesn't have an easy way to break Diddy's banana control. Thanks!
bludhoundz
Smash Ace
Glad to have helped. 
this is why post counts dont matter.
i call shenanigans.
you got quoted before you. it was weird.
Metro Knight
Smash Ace
So, I guess we are going to start with characters who might have a chance against MK, then in a year get to characters who have no chance against MK? Meh...
Only because it's hard enough theorizing with characters with relatively equitable match ups. Besides, it seems logical.
I would love to have Olimar worked in to this thing more so.
If even top level MK players admit to Olimar destroying on the ground, and the facts that Olimar has numerous ways around gimping, he becomes a serious contender. His camping turns into a great pressure game that forces MK to approach and be punished by his numerous options. Shield grab, pivot grab, pikmin spam to keep the MK focused on other things, sliding Usmash can get ridiculously early kills with a purple or blue. Whites aren't very useful but if you can manage to land a white on them into a grab, that racks up damage so insanely fast. Some of his play relies on luck as for which pikmin are out, or the fact that there just isn't time to organize your pikmin every time but overall minus the whites every pikmin will have a decent usage for your options. MK might be able to kill pikmin quickly, but Olimar plucks pikmin VERY quickly and he doesn't have to go for all 6 if he is under pressure and only needs enough to get out.
His recovery is saved due to the fact that he is so floaty. Majority of the time all you need to do is DI and double jump to recover. Rarely is the tether ever needed and when it is a purple pikmin can dislodge an edgehogger or at least Olimar will take you down too. His whistle opens even more possibilities as it can turn your attempts at gimping into a Dair spike or at least just save him.
No his whistle won't save him every time but more often then not it stops the gimp and keeps the match going and allows you to regain momentum and establish control with your camping. Some might say camping is poor in Brawl but sadly some characters just rely on it and Olimar happens to **** with it.
I doubt MK will grow much in terms of his metagame. I believe he is a character that has been refined to the point where it will stay relatively the same in the future with maybe a scarce amount of new things added. He is in a similar position as characters like G&W who have had their game hammered out so early. He is just lucky enough to dominate. Other characters do have development to go and even if a direct counter is never found strategies to make a counter under reliable circumstances will change the game.
I wish MK players never figured out G&W though
If even top level MK players admit to Olimar destroying on the ground, and the facts that Olimar has numerous ways around gimping, he becomes a serious contender. His camping turns into a great pressure game that forces MK to approach and be punished by his numerous options. Shield grab, pivot grab, pikmin spam to keep the MK focused on other things, sliding Usmash can get ridiculously early kills with a purple or blue. Whites aren't very useful but if you can manage to land a white on them into a grab, that racks up damage so insanely fast. Some of his play relies on luck as for which pikmin are out, or the fact that there just isn't time to organize your pikmin every time but overall minus the whites every pikmin will have a decent usage for your options. MK might be able to kill pikmin quickly, but Olimar plucks pikmin VERY quickly and he doesn't have to go for all 6 if he is under pressure and only needs enough to get out.
His recovery is saved due to the fact that he is so floaty. Majority of the time all you need to do is DI and double jump to recover. Rarely is the tether ever needed and when it is a purple pikmin can dislodge an edgehogger or at least Olimar will take you down too. His whistle opens even more possibilities as it can turn your attempts at gimping into a Dair spike or at least just save him.
No his whistle won't save him every time but more often then not it stops the gimp and keeps the match going and allows you to regain momentum and establish control with your camping. Some might say camping is poor in Brawl but sadly some characters just rely on it and Olimar happens to **** with it.
I doubt MK will grow much in terms of his metagame. I believe he is a character that has been refined to the point where it will stay relatively the same in the future with maybe a scarce amount of new things added. He is in a similar position as characters like G&W who have had their game hammered out so early. He is just lucky enough to dominate. Other characters do have development to go and even if a direct counter is never found strategies to make a counter under reliable circumstances will change the game.
I wish MK players never figured out G&W though
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
Sorry, I'm still not with you. Construe it as nitpicking if you prefer, but you have to understand that I am in no way disputing your argument that Diddy has the (slight) advantage as far as ground game criteria go – however, the things that I have problems with are your premises. I have no problems with declaring that a Diddy Kong main with a prudent item micromanagement and follow-up sensibilities can nearly always outclass Meta Knight on the ground, but the rationale that I would use to arrive at that conclusion would differ drastically.
Honestly, the fact that Diddy mains can potentially discourage Meta Knight's D-air approaches by anticipating with an U-tilt isn't necessarily a testament to how overwhelmingly great of move it is head to head against MK's D-air, but rather just a universally fundamental tactic that all characters should deploy in the Meta Knight match-up (baiting/anticipating). This correction in semantics might come off as a trivial quibble, but I think it's absolutely critical that we are as accurate and precise as possible with the information that we distribute if we're going to arrive at any definitive conclusion regarding just how overbearing Meta Knight's general superiority to other characters is.
To dispel the rumor before it starts, barrel-countering is never a guaranteed outcome. Use this tactic with caution.
Napilopez
Smash Lord
I would just like to take this post to say that you are quite the eloquent typer Le_THieN. Random, I know.
Post 888 Wooottt
Post 888 Wooottt
However, you're forgetting that some characters' Utilts are horrible, while others are amazing, and some aren't good, but they're good enough against MK. It's a testament to a tool that Diddy has that could give him a tiny edge in the matchup - after all, isn't that what this thread is about? Learning exactly what it is that we can do to improve against MK and brainstorming more about it.
Your semantical corrections are fine, but it's just as easy to reduce the entire concept of the matchup into "mindgames," baiting/anticipating, or whatever other terms you'd like to use. We're dealing with a very specific thing, though, not an entire, developed matchup discussion. The question is the usefulness of Utilt against Dair. As stated, this needs more testing, but it's a very specific, very intriguing point that has nothing to do with baiting, but rather, how the moves trade off with each other.
Le_THieN
Smash Lord
That's a fair argument, but I still don't buy it. Having an U-tilt that is "better than others" does not qualify it as an automatic edge in the MK match-up (regardless of how minute of an advantage your try to marginalize it as), and significantly differs from the original premise – that is, that Diddy's U-tilt beats MK's D-air.
...which is, by the way, incorrect, since I just tested it a couple of hours ago. Diddy eats Meta Knight's D-air every single time whenever both moves are activated simultaneously, and the one and only time I got it them to clank was when I got the jump on the D-air by a few breaths of a second.
The whole point to me pointing out the inaccuracy in language in the first place is to clarify both the original message of the statement as well as the validity of it. I should take this time to clarify for myself that being able to bait D-air camping from Meta Knight and then punishing appropriately with Diddy's U-tilt (re-spaced with banana dribbling) actually sounds as if it would be a very resourceful and unexpected tactic in and of itself. It's certainly an option worth exploring, but it is also a far, far cry from "U-tilt beats D-air." This declaration comes equipped with a number of implications, with the most important implication being that "Diddy's U-tilt beats MK's D-air every single time with little to no regard for timing or spacing." My testing yields absolutely nothing resembling any of the former, and it's important that we don't spread things that are simply just not true or untested.
EDIT: Missed this:
Thank you, kind sir. =)
FRAME DATA. superploz?
I've posted this in about 2 other places, but I want actual frame data.
MK boards have like, startup frames, and everyone's all like "omggg mk atk s00 fast t00 ub3r! b4n!" about it.
What about full duration of aerials, commitment time, ending lag on aerials?
Yeah, MK's landing lag is nearly nonexistent on aerials, but when he does rising/completed aerials (especially F/B/N-air), he has actual commitment time/ending lag on them.
So maybe his grab comes out on frame 4-6 or whatever. What about his ending lag? How many frames during a D-smash is the sword behing him before he can attack again? How many frames of landing lag does MK get with his 'four' types of post-tornado lag? How many frames does it take for MK to fastfall and recover from the top of a SH?
How long does his spotdodge last? How many frames of vulnerability does he have between spotdodges? How about his roll? His airdodge?
I've posted this in about 2 other places, but I want actual frame data.
MK boards have like, startup frames, and everyone's all like "omggg mk atk s00 fast t00 ub3r! b4n!" about it.
What about full duration of aerials, commitment time, ending lag on aerials?
Yeah, MK's landing lag is nearly nonexistent on aerials, but when he does rising/completed aerials (especially F/B/N-air), he has actual commitment time/ending lag on them.
So maybe his grab comes out on frame 4-6 or whatever. What about his ending lag? How many frames during a D-smash is the sword behing him before he can attack again? How many frames of landing lag does MK get with his 'four' types of post-tornado lag? How many frames does it take for MK to fastfall and recover from the top of a SH?
How long does his spotdodge last? How many frames of vulnerability does he have between spotdodges? How about his roll? His airdodge?
GofG
Smash Champion
Tenki, MK frame data is easily available in the MK boards. He has very little lag all around.
Ulevo
Smash Master
He's on the right track though.
Meta Knights spot dodge is terrible, and his air dodge isn't too hot either, although it is rarely used. He has a lot of commitment on his aerials compared to the rest of his moveset, excluding Uair. Punishing him through his DSmash by abusing the frames it takes to withdraw his sword after his second strike is something else that needs to be considered.
No johns. You can't just say "he has very little lag all around". That doesn't help, and we're all aware of that fact. We need to know how much lag he does or does not have when compared to the options of other characters. People don't know, they just assume, because "Metakniight iz teh ub3r fazt!!1".
Upon Dojo's request: closed.
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