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kirbykaze, are you single??
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Jigglypuff for Top Tier?
- Thread starter SDC
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Rubyiris
Smash Hero
People will always make mistakes, its what makes us human. I'm mostly saying that people should start camping with Fox/Falco. It makes that much of a difference when you're forcing characters with not even half their running speed to approach them on stages like dreamland.So you're asking humans to stop making mistakes?
That's like asking Rubyiris to quit *****ing about how he can't improve.
Or like asking Sveet to admit he's wrong.
You don't even need to run out the timer. just play keep away until they commit to an approach and counter accordingly, but like NOBODY does this. Jman and Forward do this to a certain extent, but that's really about it.
Igcoris
Smash Journeyman
if i wanted to camp, i'd play a different character. **** camping
i play falco btw
i play falco btw
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You must not like winning.
Strong_Bad, I am marrying Ka-Master so no, I am not single.
Strong_Bad, I am marrying Ka-Master so no, I am not single.
Anth0ny
Smash Master
SUPER THEORY BROTHERS MELEE: Jiggs totally has counters.
SUPER SMASH BROTHERS MELEE: Jiggs is undeniably top tier (top 3)
SUPER SMASH BROTHERS MELEE: Jiggs is undeniably top tier (top 3)
Igcoris
Smash Journeyman
was this directed at me?
if so, i do like to win (who doesn't) and i'm completely against camping. it's just my principle.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Falcos that claim to not camp are either DaShizWiz, in denial, or they're terrible and hate winning. This has been pretty consistent with every Falco I've ever played, met, seen play, etc.
Igcoris
Smash Journeyman
would you consider chops as campy? if so, my definition of camping isn't correct =\
edit: you can try coming to west coast canada aka BC. i'll show you that i don't camp and i'm not exactly terrible either.
edit: you can try coming to west coast canada aka BC. i'll show you that i don't camp and i'm not exactly terrible either.
- Joined
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- 26,545
nooooooooo
Scar
#HarveyDent
**** dude you're right i totally forgot that, and that's how i'm gonna act from now on
DoctorBendz
Smash Cadet
The real problem is that there are no good players left to stomp out the jiggz anymore. It's not that the Jiggz started beating the good players in 09, it's that the good players all left by that point, and she was still there.
M2K splits his time between melee and brawl (and still BAIRLY lost to Hbox)
PC chris doesn't play actively like he used to,
Ken's gone,
KDJ's gone,
Azen is gone...
Nobody is at that level anymore. THAT is what changed IMO.
Jiggz didn't just suddenly become the best character, Mango and now Hbox *and Armada* just became the only people still playing Melee who can use their main to its full potential. If someone rises to that level with a top tier character, or if M2K gives up brawl and goes back to melee exclusively, I have no doubt that Mango and Hbox won't be winning consistently.
M2K splits his time between melee and brawl (and still BAIRLY lost to Hbox)
PC chris doesn't play actively like he used to,
Ken's gone,
KDJ's gone,
Azen is gone...
Nobody is at that level anymore. THAT is what changed IMO.
Jiggz didn't just suddenly become the best character, Mango and now Hbox *and Armada* just became the only people still playing Melee who can use their main to its full potential. If someone rises to that level with a top tier character, or if M2K gives up brawl and goes back to melee exclusively, I have no doubt that Mango and Hbox won't be winning consistently.
- Joined
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- 26,545
cheat commandos YAYUHZZ**** dude you're right i totally forgot that, and that's how i'm gonna act from now on
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Because I'm an Armada fanboy, this post makes me upset.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Peach is just the best character in the game by far. You'll have to accept that Armada is just a scrub who uses a broken character that should be banned.
I can't wait for the day when Captain Falcon is top tier. 
DoctorBendz
Smash Cadet
Fixed. Armada is also amazing, just wasn't thinking about it in a Puff thread. ^^
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
THIIIIlSSSSSSI can't wait for the day when Captain Falcon is top tier.
ISAI'S COMING BACK AND FALCONS WILL TERRORIZE YOU ALL!!!
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Anth0ny
Smash Master
That's right.
Guys, there's nothing to fear. Isai will be back soon to deliver us from evil.
Toobz
Smash Journeyman
Just finished reading this thread. I've been saying the same things as TML, Victra and Scar since I first started playing this game seriously, and maining fox (this was at FAST1).
Fox is a great character in theory; the best. Playing him up to par with other top characters is extremely difficult and taxing however. Camping lasers for 10% over 15 seconds is awesome, until you get hit by a single move from your opponent and you're suddenly behind. Fox doesn't win tournaments anymore. I've said this. For some reason, people stick to beliefs that Fox is undeniably the best character, and that he should never lose. I'm beginning to realize that they are just too lazy to think any differently.
Jigglypuff takes much less effort to play well. She is a low risk, high reward character. A much safer pick for a tournament, since you don't get as worn out by playing her. Endurance IS a factor. Jigglypuff doesn't require nearly as much as does fox/falco/marth/falcon/peach/ice climbers.
I'm not saying that Jiggs players aren't good, and that hbox and mango don't have excellent spacing and prediction. They do. Both players are very talented and among the best.
The tier should be based on facts. Tournament results are the only true facts. My reasoning above on why Jiggs is doing so well and why Fox is not is just a theory. I have nothing to back up that theory, except with tournament results.
Player skill aside, the top character at tournaments is Jiggs. The top Jiggs players are able to demonstrate how far her metagame has come. Theoretically, Fox counters jiggs. How often does Fox actually win though? At the top levels, never (recently, anyway). A characters metagame is not theoretical. It is what is being demonstrated, and nothing more. The tier list should throw all this theory to the curb, and stick with the facts. Tournament results are the only true facts.
Until Fox or any other character begins to consistently defeat jigglypuff, then Jiggs should be top tier.
tl;dr Just read it. Its not that bad.
Fox is a great character in theory; the best. Playing him up to par with other top characters is extremely difficult and taxing however. Camping lasers for 10% over 15 seconds is awesome, until you get hit by a single move from your opponent and you're suddenly behind. Fox doesn't win tournaments anymore. I've said this. For some reason, people stick to beliefs that Fox is undeniably the best character, and that he should never lose. I'm beginning to realize that they are just too lazy to think any differently.
Jigglypuff takes much less effort to play well. She is a low risk, high reward character. A much safer pick for a tournament, since you don't get as worn out by playing her. Endurance IS a factor. Jigglypuff doesn't require nearly as much as does fox/falco/marth/falcon/peach/ice climbers.
I'm not saying that Jiggs players aren't good, and that hbox and mango don't have excellent spacing and prediction. They do. Both players are very talented and among the best.
The tier should be based on facts. Tournament results are the only true facts. My reasoning above on why Jiggs is doing so well and why Fox is not is just a theory. I have nothing to back up that theory, except with tournament results.
Player skill aside, the top character at tournaments is Jiggs. The top Jiggs players are able to demonstrate how far her metagame has come. Theoretically, Fox counters jiggs. How often does Fox actually win though? At the top levels, never (recently, anyway). A characters metagame is not theoretical. It is what is being demonstrated, and nothing more. The tier list should throw all this theory to the curb, and stick with the facts. Tournament results are the only true facts.
Until Fox or any other character begins to consistently defeat jigglypuff, then Jiggs should be top tier.
tl;dr Just read it. Its not that bad.
mers
Smash Ace
I never understand what the big fuss about tier lists is. Unless you're playing in a low tier tournament and the list actually decides which characters are legal, why does it matter?
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Personally, I dislike that tiers are almost directly based off of tournament results. This would only work well (or at least better) if there was a proportional amount of players using each character. Bowser isn't better than many of the middle or low tiers but has better placing than some of them because a few people play Bowser and characters like Zelda and G&W are more or less extinct, despite being better overall than Bowser.
Marth doesn't win tournaments like before simply because only a handful of players play Marth to a high level still.
Of course, character choice and placement is based on the players, so it is somewhat relative, but suppose in Place X, there are a ton of Yoshi mains; more than any other character, and these Yoshi players get some of the top spots, as well as a spread throughout the middle. Would this mean that Yoshi is a great character or is it just because of the sheer amount of them. Obviously people that are losing high spots by Yoshis probably aren't at a pro level, but if said Yoshi players get lucky brackets, they can get high placements, and with the amount of them, the chance of that happening increases.
That's just sort of a metaphored theory (if that makes sense), but I think it's at least somewhat relative to using tournament results to determine tiers, since tournament results can be random (upsets, comebacks, seeding, brackets, etc), while the characters actually being evaluated aren't luck based except for Luigi, Peach and G&W.
Marth doesn't win tournaments like before simply because only a handful of players play Marth to a high level still.
Of course, character choice and placement is based on the players, so it is somewhat relative, but suppose in Place X, there are a ton of Yoshi mains; more than any other character, and these Yoshi players get some of the top spots, as well as a spread throughout the middle. Would this mean that Yoshi is a great character or is it just because of the sheer amount of them. Obviously people that are losing high spots by Yoshis probably aren't at a pro level, but if said Yoshi players get lucky brackets, they can get high placements, and with the amount of them, the chance of that happening increases.
That's just sort of a metaphored theory (if that makes sense), but I think it's at least somewhat relative to using tournament results to determine tiers, since tournament results can be random (upsets, comebacks, seeding, brackets, etc), while the characters actually being evaluated aren't luck based except for Luigi, Peach and G&W.
Toobz
Smash Journeyman
My thoughts on the tier list as I've stated above really only work for the most common characters with decent representation. The top 8-9 characters is all I care about anyway.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
banhammer nao
Good post man. reminds me when PC and M2K were going back and forth..Fox and Marth were in serious contention for best character in the game.
While we cannot ignore tournament results , players being better each other has little to do with a character being better than another character.
Perhaps we should ask ourselves, "What makes a character good?''
Factors like speed, combos, recovery etc?
or the amount of winning ie 6-4 7-3 etc matchups they have?
Peach Falcon Jiggly all can compete very well vs Shiek Fox Falco Marth but I think its the strong advantages that those 4 characters have over most of the cast that earns them the top tier position. as we all know this game isnt just 7 characters but if it was ,those 7 characters tier placement would probably not matter.
Toobz
Smash Journeyman
Thanks dude. I don't really like match-up charts either. All they really represent is how good of a reliable combo one character has against another. In my opinion match-ups are LARGELY decided differently for each individual. Playstyle has a HUGE impact on whether or not a player can defeat another character. Like me for example: I have no problem fighting marth with fox, but against samus I have a much harder time. I've fought both good marth's and samus's, but I am simply more comfortable fighting marth than samus. Its not that Samus is hands down a difficult match up for fox. I know of some foxes that wreck samus pretty handily. It all comes down to the individuals playstyle and pace of play.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
if thats the case then how come there are really only 3 good jiggs players?
if jiggs is the best character in the game then how come the lower levels of play are not overun with jiggs players?
when fox/falco were the best they were the best not only at the highest level of play, but there were hundreds of good - decent spacie mains running around.
when marth was the best, there were many more marth mains than just ken or m2k.
when sheik was the best in the early stages of the melee metagame, same thing.
Why is jiggs an exception? if she is really the best char in the game, why does that not filter down into the lower-than-top levels of play?
why are there literally NO decent-good level jiggs, and only 2 (maybe 3) absolutely TOP level jiggs players?
you said it yourself, she's easy to play. If thats the case, why is it that tourny's arent absolutely overrun with decent jiggs players?
Toobz
Smash Journeyman
One can only speculate. In my case, however, I find Jiggs boring and not fun to play. I find Fox/Falco/Falcon/Marth much more satisfying. Jiggs's playstyle just doesn't suit me. If I planned on going pro then I'd have to take this game more seriously, and learn to play every character that I deem good.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
Thats fine.
Im just saying jiggs doesnt seem like "best character in the game" material because you'd think that if a char were really the best in the game, people would play her cuz they want to win. after all, the point of competition is to test your ability vs others.
i just find it interesting that there are only 3 jiggs players. period. Its not like theres darc, mango, hbox, and then lots of jiggs you come across in pools, frienlies, mms and first round brackets and stuff. its literally just them and thats about it.
im not buying the whole "jiggs for best char" thing until people not named mango/hbox/darc start to show up and atleast be good.
iamthemicrowave
Smash Master
In my opinion, the top 5 chars(sheik, fox, marth, jiggs, falco) are relatively balanced with each other, and ranking them is impossible and all speculation.
Toobz
Smash Journeyman
I don't know of too many jiggs players, but Sliq and Raistlin are very good. There are some newbies I saw at the last Gigabits tournament in Orlando that played jiggs as well. Also something to keep in mind, most of the good players and pros have been around before Jiggs became so good. I don't know why they chose their main, but if it was before Jiggs started getting a lot of attention then it seems reasonable that fewer experienced players main jiggs.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I love how people say stuff like this because it seems logical to them though everything we know goes against it. If you don't think there was a major, major evolution of skill level from Genesis to Pound, you don't know Melee. So many new techniques, approaches, spacing tactics, tech skill uses, etc.
Like it or not, the game is still evolving at a blistering pace. Gameplay evolution is nowhere near its peak, and with the way things are going, I don't expect it to be for a long time.
Thats one way to put it, but I think its a little too simple. I wouldn't limit it to those 5 characters because I don't think we are anywhere near meta saturation. Every year we seem to have a new best character (Sheik, Marth, Fox, Falco, Jiggs). In Pound, everyone was scared ****less of the Falcon swarm (Hax was playing out of his mind, SilentSpectre beat Armada, and Falcon doubles almost won teams). You had guys like M2K asking people to play Falcon against him over and over again so he can get his tech skill in the matchup right. I don't put it out of the picture to see Falcons continue to develop to the point of meta dominance.
It speaks to the greatness of this game that so many years later, we still don't know how the **** to make a tier list. Melee really is a very deep game.
Fortress | Sveet
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x After Dawn x
Smash Master
the fact that there's only two top jiggs players, one of them who does equally as well with other characters, and jiggs doesn't really show any overwhelming amount of potential is enough to keep her in high tier
take tourney results with a grain of salt and stop taking them so literally
take tourney results with a grain of salt and stop taking them so literally
MusicalMike
Needs to try harder
How about Mango for top tier
=)
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